How to improve Pantera brakes? (make them like Ferrari brakes)

The Ferrari probably has carbon ceramic brakes, but there are big brake kits that will stop the Pantera significantly better than stock, but it's a slippery slope as you'll want a new master cylinder, larger rotors, which usually dictates bigger diameter wheels.

For vintage racing the specifications on what you can use are typically pretty prescriptive and of period correctness, some sanctioning body's are more lenient than others. I just spent best part of year getting the Girling Group 4 brakes for my vintage race Pantera and it will be close to a $10k investment when complete, for what is still only 70's technology!

Julian

The Ferrari also has ABS, which means all you need to do is stomp on the brake pedal; the car does the rest. Also, the Ferrari has anti-dive suspension, so when you brake hard, all four brakes contribute to stopping the car. The Pantera doesn’t have that, so when you brake hard, you get lots of weight transfer onto the front wheels. This means too much rear bias will cause the rear brakes to lock up, causing a loss of directional stability. Braking isn’t just about calipers and rotors. Balance plays a major role. Like Julian said: a slippery slope!

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Tom, you've probably already read the brake sticky. But for all who might read your topic, the brake sticky (linked below) has good information and debate.

Pantera Brake Improvements

For the record, I'm quite happy with the decades old Wilwood brake system on my Pantera. It stops hard and fast. No nose dive, no rising tail, the car stays flat. No proportioning valve at all, neither in the front circuit or the rear circuit. No premature lock-up of the front or rear brakes. 12.75" race rotors (thick) and 4 piston calipers.

Whichever vendor put the system together did well. I just wish it had a parking brake. Maybe someday I'll do that project.

-G

I'm not overly concerned about remaining stock; the car will never get sold in my lifetime and has already lived with me for 42 years. I have 17" rims on the front and 18" rear, so larger discs are possible. Winter is coming, so there will more be time to fix things that 'aint broke'. I'll review the posts and try to get a feel for what makes the most sense.

Has anybody tried to install ABS brakes in an old car?

@tomkuester posted:

Has anybody tried to install ABS brakes in an old car?

With enough money, talent (either yours or someone else's) and knowledge almost anything is possible. I imagine this would be quite a challenge.  I don't recall reading anything regarding this but I wonder if some of these restomod builds incorporated this?

There might be some systems starting to pop up. Here are some Bosch parts.

https://www.bosch-motorsport.c...ghlights/abs-m5-kit/

Interesting! I'll have to look into this. But I wonder about adding ABS to our cars. I can't begin to lock up my front wheels on dry pavement and don't drive on wet days. So adding ABS may not benefit my car. What are your thoughts?

Tom

ABS??

Personally, one of my attractions to the Pantera is that it is, and remains, an analog exotic.

but yes, I have an updated modern ignition system and electric power steering. guilty on those charges. 😉

if I want a digital sports car, and all the “benefits” that go with them, I know where to go and purchase one.

IIRC, more than 10 years ago I believe Wilkinson had a modification project in his shop to install the Ford GT engine and Ricardo transaxle. It also was going to include an ABS system, but I think that project got shelved and returned to the owner before completion.

Maybe someone else has more specifics on that project?

Larry

That car (“GTPowered”) is out of Wilkenson’s shop and in the hands of the owner.

He is a longtime AZ POCA member.

The car was at the the last Fun Rally (2022) in Maricopa.

Can’t say if the ABS brake project was implemented or not….

Problem for most of us re a Ricardo 6-speed is -A- the sheer expense and -B- the box is much heavier-duty and bulkier than the ZF so requires either mounting the new transaxle higher so the lower rear a-arms mount under the gearbox, or spread the lower rear subframes & shorten the lower rear a-arms, then complet- ely re-do the rear suspension geometry. I doubt if G. Dallara would be interested in redoing his work of 1970 just for a few of us that want a pricy 6th gear. If I did, I'd go for Butfoy's 6-speed ZF and keep stock rear suspension.

Tom, since you've already gone from 15" to 17/18" wheels, your brake discs can also increase by 2"OD. That would massively increase the brake system leverage especially the fronts, and will noticeably upgrade your stopping power without increasing required leg power. The stock booster will provide enough assist.

When you want your car runs and brake as a modern Ferrari, buy a modern Ferrari, not a classic Ferrari because those have the same brake results as a 50 year Pantera.

just my 2c

Simon

Shouldn’t any sports car have enough front braking potential, that you could lock your non-ABS front brakes in an “all out” braking situation?

@simon posted:

When you want your car runs and brake as a modern Ferrari, buy a modern Ferrari, not a classic Ferrari because those have the same brake results as a 50 year Pantera.

just my 2c

Simon

Or better, use a modern Ferrari as a daily driver ( easy and confortable) and a Pantera for the fun.

Simon

I appreciate your alternate suggestions to driving a Pantera with 50-year-old technology brakes. Buying a Ferrari is not in my cards although I could live with one as my daily driver. Like most of you, maybe all, I love to drive my Pantera and do so every chance I get. It has 28,000 original miles on it, 21,000 since I bought it 42 years ago. Many are fairly spirited and probably unsafe rides as it has lots more motor now but the same brakes.

I live near Washington DC, Supercars are everywhere, and I love seeing them, but I wouldn't trade my Pantera. A couple months ago I rented a C7 Corvette and took it to track. It was nice, and it was save with traction and stability control, but it just didn't give me the fun factor that comes with a Pantera.

Have I sold you on Panteras?

Now back to getting better brakes. You gave me a few good suggestions.

Thank you.

Tom

Tom ,what do you mean with;  Have I sold you on Pantera's ?

Simon

Just my odd sense of humor in case there is somebody among us that isn’t sure about them.