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Freeze-12

pantera1887pantera1887Member
Does anyone on the forum have long term experience using Freeze-12 in their Pantera or other cars designed for R12. Had a service valve O ring malfunction on my Sanden SD 508 R12 compressor and lost part of my R12 charge. None of the shops around here have R12 and I didn’t want to change out my condenser, expansion valve, dryer and purge the system of the mineral oil so I could go with 134. One of the respected A/C shops recommended using Freeze-12 and said they’ve had good experience with it so I had them charge my system. So far it seems to be working as well as the R12 did. It was 86 degrees with hot solar heating of the interior today and after a 15 minute drive at 60 MPH the inside temp got down to 70 degrees in the shade. It is a little bit difficult to compare with my R12 testing notes because that testing was done at around 95 degrees and I was also getting a 70 degree inside temp. Here’s a link to that work http://www.panteraplace.com/page123.htm I am getting 38 degree evaporator exit temp at the air vents and around 39 to 40 degrees at 60 MPH.

Seems to work as well as R12 but I’m wondering about the long term. Support of the system with Freeze-12 in it is not a problem because that’s what my A/C shop uses. From what I can tell by Googling Freeze-12 there is a lot of miss information about it on the net.

Mike
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accobraaccobraMember
Dont quote me on this because I mostly handle the Commerical Refriegerants in my business ... but I think what I remember was Freeze 12 is R-12 but in a small quantity. They cant totally discontinue something and expect everyone to go buy new compressors and AC equipment. For example now they are discontinuing R-22 for home ac then then went to R 410A and now there is talk to dicontue that ...they cant expect everyone to buy brand new AC equipment ..although the rebate programs are awfully tempting.

Ron
J jb1490Member
I just recently put Freeze 12 in my R12 system, so I don't have any long term info. I don't have any evap temps, but I was just in 100* + temps with high humidity (for my area) and the system worked great. What I do know is that Freeze 12 is on the EPA list of approved refrigerants. It is 20% HCFC-142b and 80% HFC-134a. The claim is that the 142b forms a barrier so that you don't need the barrier hoses. You are supposed to remove the R12 before adding the Freeze 12 (some people don't) and install the charge fittings and decal for the identification of Freeze 12.

John
pantera1887pantera1887Member
If you’ve been to the Freeze-12 website that covers the installation, you’ve probably noticed that it says “For maximum system performance install 3oz ester lube” as part of the installation steps. I was interested in this comment, so I emailed them and asked about skipping the ester lube if the system already has the correct amount of mineral oil. You certainly wouldn’t want to over fill the system with lube. They said that the system will be lubed fine with the mineral oil because Freeze-12 will move the mineral oil around the system just like R12 does. They said they recommend ester lube in the installation steps to top off the oil supply on systems that may have low mineral oil because mineral oil is not available to them in pressurized cans like ester lube is. That is understandable because most people do not have oil injectors like my AC shop used to add mineral oil.

Mike
panteradougpanteradougMember
I know that it had appeared on the store shelf about two years ago here in NY. I wasn't ready to buy when I first saw it.

When I was it had been pulled from the shelves since it was decided that you needed a license to buy it in NY.

38 degrees at the vent is fantastic. That is R12 type temps and low even for R12. I can only get about 50 with the R134a.

Even R12 usually requires a pound or so to be added when the warm weather rolls around. It is under such pressure in the system that it just takes a micro leak to loose some charge.
deniscdeniscCaretaker of 8MA1244 '70 Euro Mangusta DRIVE THEM, THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DRIVEN, IF YOU WANT TO LOOK AT ONE, BUY A POSTER!
Mike, Ron, You are the experts. I can't even remember Dicloro-difloro- ??? No one has stated what the product is????? I remember a 7-10 years back of unscrupulous seller out of FLA selling propane and labeling it as recycled R12. It worked fine, cooling and everything but had major side effects...KABOOM.


Denis
pantera1887pantera1887Member
Larry,

I was so jazzed about the cold air flowing out of the A/C I didn’t think about recording the pressure readings on their test equipment. They did say that the pressures looked good, but I realize that’s not very helpful.

Here are some links that might be helpful:

A link to a page that has a bunch of links to individual pages http://www.freeze12.com/techsup.htm

Conversion data, weights Freeze-12 to R-12 http://www.freeze12.com/convdata.htm

Pressure comparison chart, Freeze-12, R-12 and R-134 http://www.freeze12.com/prestemp.htm

Frequently asked questions http://www.freeze12.com/Freque...sked%20Questions.htm

One of the many interesting things about the Pantera A/C system is how close the evaporator is to the A/C air exits. The evaporator is within a few inches of the outlets so I expect our temps might be lower than cars with longer ducting leading from the evaporator to the dash outlets. Some of the older GM cars have their evaporator in the engine compartment.

The strangest thing I’ve seen is on 71 cars with the outside air connection between the cowl and the AC box. The connection is downstream from the AC fans, so if you open the air control it blows condition air out of the car into the cowl opening. This might work differently when the car is underway.

Mike
J jb1490Member
quote:
No one has stated what the product is?????


I did. Check my post above.

Freeze 12 is 20% HCFC-142b (hydrochlorofluorocarbon) and 80% HFC-134a (hydrofluorocarbon). It does not contain any propane, butane, or isobutane. It is on the EPA list of approved R12 substitutes.

It appears that the EPA is banning 142b, but it can be used to support existing refrigeration systems. See link.

http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/title...aseout/hcfcfaqs.html

The EPA also states that there is no "drop in" refrigerant substitute. This means that you cannot add a freon substitute (such as Freeze 12) on top of the existing R-12 in the system. You must remove (recover) the existing R-12 from the system so that when the system is filled with the freon substitute, it (the system) will not have a mix of R-12 and the substitute freon.

John
pantera1887pantera1887Member
quote:
Originally posted by andriyko:
Mike,

I think your concern about mixing of R134a in Freeze 12 with your system is a valid one.

check out this link:

Auto A/C


I found that link a couple of weeks ago when I was trying to decide what to do with my system. It is very hard to tell what’s – what’s out there on the net. I guess I’ll find out how good or bad Freeze-12 is and I’ll report back. We will see if it is sooner or later.

Mike
Last edited by pantera1887
onthejuiceonthejuiceMember
Last June I was headed to a car show when my receiver/dry blew and freon and mineral oil sprayed all over my engine compartment. So much for that show. Since, I've replaced the receiver/dryer and was debating how to recharge with R-12. You can buy it on eBay, but it's expensive. I was really happy to see this thread on Freeze-12. I was not aware of it. I ordered a one-time recharge kit for $59.95 from the place in Michigan and look forward to trying Freeze-12 in #6641.

Dave
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Not sure of Freeze-12 but a few substitutes use PROPANE as the cold-making gas, which does work. There are all sorts of systems out there- many use extremely toxic gasses and are only used in commercial business A/Cs, in frozen-food lockers or long-haul refrigerator semis. Also keep in mind that with Freeze-12 and other such freon substitutes, you're on your own as far as charging and service. Most A/C dealers will not touch a car with these gasses in them, 'cause the law says they must 'recover' the gasses before working on the system. Freeze-12 and others similar will hopelessly contaminate their recovery tanks and equipment, costing many $$$$ to clean up. If you do your own work, fine. If you don't, you're in for a search to find someone that will service the car after you add the stuff yourself. Call around to your local shops about possible service before you buy a freon substitute- maybe you'll get lucky.
pantera1887pantera1887Member
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Not sure of Freeze-12 but a few substitutes use PROPANE as the cold-making gas, which does work. There are all sorts of systems out there- many use extremely toxic gasses and are only used in commercial business A/Cs, in frozen-food lockers or long-haul refrigerator semis. Also keep in mind that with Freeze-12 and other such freon substitutes, you're on your own as far as charging and service. Most A/C dealers will not touch a car with these gasses in them, 'cause the law says they must 'recover' the gasses before working on the system. Freeze-12 and others similar will hopelessly contaminate their recovery tanks and equipment, costing many $$$$ to clean up. If you do your own work, fine. If you don't, you're in for a search to find someone that will service the car after you add the stuff yourself. Call around to your local shops about possible service before you buy a freon substitute- maybe you'll get lucky.


Jack, thanks for your input. I realize that some will do their own AC work using Freeze-12 and like you say they may end up being on their own to support the system in the future. In my case, I selected a shop that recommended using Freeze-12 for my situation. Doing this provided certified professional techs to service the system and to support the system in the future. The shop is also a certified MACS member http://www.macsw.org//AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home

I was surprised how many shops in my area said their solution would be to use Freeze-12. This might be unique to the Southeast because it is not inhabitable without AC.

Mike
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