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Here's an incredible waste!!

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D detom (Guest)
Yeah ain't it a shame? If that car was in pritine, flawless condition it would be worth 80-90k? Really tragic that someone couldn't buy that car for 10k and fix it up. But with your avarage Pantera restoration running 160k plus, it just don't make sense to do it. Now if that were just a Mustang, you could do an eyepopping resto for about 20k. Crying shame that Panteras are made out of unobtanium that way. Panteras are just unloved bastard cars. If that same car was a VW there would be folks buying it to restore. I just read an aritcle in my Sports and exotic where a guy found a 66 vette burned to a crisp in a garage twenty years ago that had sat in the open those twenty years and the fool did a ten year restoration on it. I must admitt it sure looked sweet when he was done, but he had way more money in it than he could ever get out of it.
Yeah I agree, Panteras are a waste of money. May as well just throw your money away.
Pantera 3rd&LastPantera 3rd&LastMember
quote:
Originally posted by DeTom:
Yeah ain't it a shame? If that car was in pritine, flawless condition it would be worth 80-90k? Really tragic that someone couldn't buy that car for 10k and fix it up. But with your avarage Pantera restoration running 160k plus, it just don't make sense to do it. Now if that were just a Mustang, you could do an eyepopping resto for about 20k. Crying shame that Panteras are made out of unobtanium that way. Panteras are just unloved bastard cars. If that same car was a VW there would be folks buying it to restore. I just read an aritcle in my Sports and exotic where a guy found a 66 vette burned to a crisp in a garage twenty years ago that had sat in the open those twenty years and the fool did a ten year restoration on it. I must admitt it sure looked sweet when he was done,
but he had way more money in it than he could ever get out of it.
Yeah I agree, Panteras are a waste of money. May as well just throw your money away.



Comments like these are factually in accurate. They also contribute to the “urban myths” perpetuated since the cars were first introduced. It is also why they are so undervalued. When a perspective buyer reads these kinds of statements from a Pantera owner what do you think their impressions of the car would be?

Please tell me who has paid $160 K to restore a Pantera?

Panteras are bastard cars? But people would restore VWs. What are you talking about?

Panteras are made of unobtainum? A totally baseless statement. The majority of Pantera parts including sheet metal are readily available from Pantera venders. And also on e-Bay. And at surprisingly reasonable prices.

But your last quote really says it all
“Yeah I agree, Panteras are a waste of money. May as well just throw your money away. “

Who says Panteras are a waste of money? You and who else?

There will always be people who made a bad purchase of any car. Maybe they never inspected the car or had it inspected by knowledgeable Pantera owners. Maybe they had unrealistic expectations of what a “restoration” really costs. That is why you find project cars that are dis assembled and then the owner determines the real work and or cost to bring the car back.

But to make unsubstantiated statements is painting with a very broad brush.And a very in accurate representation of Pantera ownership.
Last edited by Pantera 3rd&Last
4nhotrod4nhotrodHe who dies with the most toys is dead
Posted February 02, 2011 12:56 PM Hide Post
"""Yeah ain't it a shame? If that car was in pritine, flawless condition it would be worth 80-90k? Really tragic that someone couldn't buy that car for 10k and fix it up. But with your avarage Pantera restoration running 160k plus, it just don't make sense to do it. Now if that were just a Mustang, you could do an eyepopping resto for about 20k. Crying shame that Panteras are made out of unobtanium that way. Panteras are just unloved bastard cars. If that same car was a VW there would be folks buying it to restore. I just read an aritcle in my Sports and exotic where a guy found a 66 vette burned to a crisp in a garage twenty years ago that had sat in the open those twenty years and the fool did a ten year restoration on it. I must admitt it sure looked sweet when he was done, but he had way more money in it than he could ever get out of it.
Yeah I agree, Panteras are a waste of money. May as well just throw your money away.""""

WTF?? I don't know where to start.
Last edited by 4nhotrod
4nhotrod4nhotrodHe who dies with the most toys is dead
OK, I know where to start...
Where do you get an average of $160k for an average resto on a Pantera?
Metal work is metal work. Whether it's on a Pantera or a VW, it's metal work.
Why would you bring up VW?? If a guy wants to restore a VW, a Pantera, or a Corvette, it's completely up to them. They may, or may not get their money back. Did you buy your Pantera as an investment? If any adult has not figured out yet that sports cars are "NOT AN INVESTMENT", then they are retarded.
Pantera's are a waste of money? Best investment I've ever made. I can ride with the most modern cars and whip most of their asses. And my Pantera will get most of the attention at the car shows. The only negatives are when I read such BS.
Will
Last edited by 4nhotrod
davidbdavidbMember
I know where to start...

1 - I know a lot of people who have way more than $160k in their cats.

2 - I also know that every one of them is convinced they have a way better car than anything else they could ever buy for $250 or more.

3 - If I had the time I'd buy this for $10k and either make good money on the parts or save a bundle on my next build.

4 - People destroy a lot of things that they don't care about. It's not tragic. It's just a car. What IS tragic is that if this was really a pristine, flawless car that it would only be worth $80- $90. THAT'S tragic.
S samcMember
I really do not understand.The car does not look that bad to me.I have had to do restos on cars that were in much worse shape than that.If I had not already bought a project pantera I would buy this car in a second.Parts are still available heck even if you had to buy a rolling chassis and use metal from that donor car it would still be cheaper than buying a clean one.If I could get 100K for a resto than I would have still been doing bodywork full time.
garth66garth66"When speed is the only thing that counts"
quote:
Pantera's are a waste of money? Best fuckin investment I've ever made. I can ride with the most modern cars and whip most of their asses. And my Pantera will get most of the attention at the car shows.

Agreed! AND, my Pantera has outperformed my 401(k) as far as investments go. No, I've never bought a car as an 'investment,' just food for thought!
angelobangelobMember
Investment? In money? Nope, not by a long shot. When the wife ased me the other day how much I had in the Pantera.... after a bit of silence I just mumbled something like 'I don't know, I'm not keeping track, it's not important, I'll figure it out when I'm done (that will give me time), or I don't care. AND CHANGED THE SUBJECT.

I know I am over 100g or very close.... I'm not counting.

I do plan on riding by and looking at the car today or tomorrow. Morbid curiousity, I did the math... not worth even parting out what is left for 10k. Tranny hydrolocked? More than likely rust locked, that lube does not cover all of the gears, and the upright bearings not moving in 30 years? snicker. Like I said morbid curiousity, Like I need another project or parts car, The fenders are not even good enough to make a mold of.

I won't flame previous post, just poor choice of verbage in the spur of the moment. Big Grin

Angelo
F firstpanteraMember
This debate on whether or not a car is worth restoring seems to rage on quite a bit on these forums.Which makes me wonder.How many of us do our own work? Is the $160K price one that reflects a professional restoration done totally by an outside firm where all you do is sit back and write checks? Or is this what should be expected for a home garage resto? That doesn't seem likely to me (Well, maybe with ths particular car!)I've been lucky enough to have built a dozen or so classics in the last 35 years and I can honestly say that I've never lost money. I do 99% of the work entirely by myself. I can also say I've never made a ton of money from them either! And I'm not talking clean a part and stick it back on. These have been complete body off restos, with nothing left untouched. My Pantera in particular was purchased as a rolling derusted shell with all its parts, but needed finishing. I stripped it to its shell and did a total resto. I have a total of $55k into it. Will I get that back? I may have to wait a couple of years for the market to come back, but yes, I believe so. The GTO I built for my wife is definitely worth more than what I built it for 7-8 years ago. So how many people on this forum do entirely their own work? In the meantime, I LOVE THIS CAR!!!! Hands down, the most awesome classic I've ever built/owned/driven!!! Now if winte would only go away!
B brutusMember
I agree with you Will. Some people, like me, restore cars as a hobby. I like the transformation i can perform on those ¨scrap¨ and restore their original beauty. It take time, money and love for piece of art like those classic cars. I like my hobby as others like travelling all around the world, it's a matter of choice and it's nobodyelse business.
P.S. If I was a scrap yard owner, I shall be the most desperate men on earth.
Serge
Serge
F firstpanteraMember
quote:
I'm in the auto biz, and you have to factor in all costs, a total resto like yours would have cost more than $55k (of course if thats the figure your wife knows about)
LOL!!!!!

HAHA! Youre right on that one! But thats pretty much the point of my entire rant.As Brutus said, its a labor of love for me.I never count my labor. If I wasnt doing this, Id be in some den of iniquity just blowing my money! I know it would take more to build this car than it did my first Pantera, but 160K??? I just can't see it.What is the percentage of owner/builders versus owner/outside builders?
D detom (Guest)
quote:
Comments like these are factually in accurate. They also contribute to the “urban myths” perpetuated since the cars were first introduced. It is also why they are so undervalued. When a perspective buyer reads these kinds of statements from a Pantera owner what do you think their impressions of the car would be?

Mike I made these comments because it IS the impression I get from having been on and read the Pantera owners forums. Everytime someone sells a car evryone of them chirps up how the car is over priced and how NO Pantera is worth this or that and I am sick of it. I have owned my car for 13 years and love it. Now that I am trying to sell it all I hear about is how overpriced these cars are and whine whine whine from other Pantera owners. Pantera owners are great guys who will give you the blood from their arms to help you out until it comes time to sell. The reason the cars are not valued is why bad mouth them constantly. "Don't buy a car with ANY rust or you will be sorry." You ever heard a Mopar guy say that to anyone? Corvette frames can fall completely apart from rust but you hardly ever hear about it. I have seen 55 chevy held together with duct tape they were rusted so bad, sitting on a trailer at a car show the guy was aking more for it than this Pantera by far and I didn't see him get lynched at the car show by fellow chebbie owners. You want to know why these cars are so undervalued?? Look in the mirror and you will see.

Please tell me who has paid $160 K to restore a Pantera?

The guy who ran one in the gumball rally for one. If you do not posses the neccesary skills you have no choice but to pay for someone who does. When was the last time you got a quote from one of the reputible shops?

Panteras are bastard cars? But people would restore VWs. What are you talking about?


It seems to me that there are certain cars that have fanatical cult followings. It doesn't seem to me that the Pantera is one of those. Maybe I have just been reading too much Hemmings but these guys seem to fall in love with some marque and would do anything to restore one no matter how bad off it is. Yet here we have a basket case Pantera and not one person is going " man that would be my most challenging restore to date. maybe I am ready?" No we are all sitting here, knowingly just writting it off because by golly, it would just plain cost too much, or take too much time or whatever. I mean just how many GT5S were there that we can just through one away like that?? If that was a Duesenberg do you think this conversation would be happening???

Panteras are made of unobtainum? A totally baseless statement. The majority of Pantera parts including sheet metal are readily available from Pantera venders. And also on e-Bay. And at surprisingly reasonable prices.

I know, thats when I see people going "$2,500 for a front fender??" I get peeved. Price a fender for a 69 camaro and shut the hell up.

But your last quote really says it all
“Yeah I agree, Panteras are a waste of money. May as well just throw your money away. “

Who says Panteras are a waste of money? You and who else?

EVER car is a waste of money because the return on investment is just plain stupid. You pour money into to any car just to keep it going. Every car depreciates when it is driven off the lot. They wear out. Cars are money pits but a neccesity to modern life. As an investment 99.999 percent of all the cars ever made are total loosers. If you don't love your car, it is a waste. If you love your car and enjoy it, it is worth it.

There will always be people who made a bad purchase of any car. Maybe they never inspected the car or had it inspected by knowledgeable Pantera owners. Maybe they had unrealistic expectations of what a “restoration” really costs. That is why you find project cars that are dis assembled and then the owner determines the real work and or cost to bring the car back.

But to make unsubstantiated statements is painting with a very broad brush.And a very in accurate representation of Pantera ownership.


I made those statments because I was parroting back what I have been hearing from Pantera owners for years now and even you just made this statement just now. Have a knowelgeable Pantera owner look at a car and they don't say to the potential buyer, oh it has this problem so it will cost this much to set it right and that much to do that. No they tell the newbie "OH don't buy that car!! OMG you auntie will die if you buy this or that car, wait for a perfect one and then lowball them."
Yaeh I know you will say "I never said that" but I think once your anger dies down and you realy think back you will maybe see what I mean.
You know, I loved my Pantera and I still do and I will miss it a lot when it is gone. A part of me will be ripped out that can never be replaced. But it is either that or rob a bank and either way I lose my cat. But one thing I won't miss at all is the constant bad mouthing of these beutifull machines by people who supposedly love them.
noquarternoquarterMember
A car is worth what the buyer wants to pay. Period. Time is also a factor. If it takes a year to sell your car, it was too expensive. If three people turn up with cash the day you announce it for sale, it was too cheap. Supply and demand.

For those saying the car isn't worth big $, I understand that if you add up the investment, that may be lower. But not all people are like us, that like to fix and restore themselves. Some people have no such skills or desire, and they have money, they want a finished product where everything is like new, and that's when the car becomes worth more than its parts. Synergy, as it's called in business-speak.

Finally, I think there's a bit of emotion here, one of the things we like about Panteras is that we can afford it. A few millionaires in this group, but most of us are normal income people, and we can afford a supercar because of the Pantera. And we want to keep it that way. What if all Panteras suddenly cost 5x what they do today. Would be great for current owners, sort of, would they still dare drive it (hard)? If my Pantera was worth $250k, it would be driven less frequently. And buying another Pantera in the future might be impossible.

I expect values to slowly increase. I don't like it, and I didn't buy my Pantera to make money, but with regards to price, see my first paragraph...
Smiler
quickittyquickittyMember
Looks like they pulled the Craigslist ad, but just from the posted pics, I'd say it is well worth restoring. Even if the sub frame had to be replaced, it would still be worth it. After 25+ years of restoring cars as a hobby, I'd say 50 to 60K in parts would be a reasonable estimate(if you don't go nuts on the engine)and 1,200 hours of labor might get it if you really moved and the under side did not resemble swiss cheese. Even if you put a dollar value of $75 per hour, thats $90,000 just in labor. That would put the car in the $150K range finished if there were no suprises (all speculation and that is probably on the low end) Not that I could afford it, but I am thinking that might be acceptable.
Now for somebody like myself, I would not value my labor at the same rate. Restoring cars is what I love doing, when I take vacation from work, this is what I prefer to do. I love the challenge and the end result. I am the guy who comes home from work, opens the garage, a can of beer and sits and stares at his cars for an hour in appriciation of the art, both in the orignal design and the resto work done.
That is the guy who will buy this car.
If I did not already have too many projects, I would be in Miami right now working a deal to buy it.
C comp2Member
quote:
Originally posted by Quickitty:
Looks like they pulled the Craigslist ad, but just from the posted pics, I'd say it is well worth restoring. Even if the sub frame had to be replaced, it would still be worth it. After 25+ years of restoring cars as a hobby, I'd say 50 to 60K in parts would be a reasonable estimate(if you don't go nuts on the engine)and 1,200 hours of labor might get it if you really moved and the under side did not resemble swiss cheese. Even if you put a dollar value of $75 per hour, thats $90,000 just in labor. That would put the car in the $150K range finished if there were no suprises (all speculation and that is probably on the low end) Not that I could afford it, but I am thinking that might be acceptable.
Now for somebody like myself, I would not value my labor at the same rate. Restoring cars is what I love doing, when I take vacation from work, this is what I prefer to do. I love the challenge and the end result. I am the guy who comes home from work, opens the garage, a can of beer and sits and stares at his cars for an hour in appriciation of the art, both in the orignal design and the resto work done.
That is the guy who will buy this car.
If I did not already have too many projects, I would be in Miami right now working a deal to buy it.


As posted so many people who restore cars open their checkbook with no regard for anything and it doesn't take much to turn a $20k Camero into a $150k car. If your going to do that anyway, why not do it to a real super car. Many of the people who do this sort of thing, if they were not out spending this kind of money on a car would be out in Vegas blowing at the craps table. Why not do the car!

Second, many of us who could not afford to punch out $150k for a super car so to speak, would gladly build one if they could. This is a perfect candidate. I personally would rather stand by a car I built then a car I bought. Once you tear one down completely it is not that much more to repair some body panels, frame, etc. Much of the frame can be hand fabricated without any special tools or skills.

It's also perfect for a tube chassis build, a complete clean sheet of paper build, and a whole host of changes you would never do to a perfectly good GTS. I look at it and think WOW, the possibilities!

I flew into a small airport in Ohio. Had a small runway a hanger and a trailer at the end of the runway. The guy who ran the airport lived in the trailer on a minimum wage budget at best.

I looked in the hanger and the guy had a rare A-model P-51. We got to taking, ad the guy bought the wreck for nothing barley recognizable and burred in a creak bank. Piece by piece he rebuilt/built every piece to make one of the few airworthy P-51's in the world; and the guy lives in a trailer on the end of the runway. P-51's start at $1.5mil. An A model near $5mil. Not bad for a guy on minimum wage.

If this is the only way you can get into a super car, damn right guys will jump on it! All you need is a serial number and a title. Guys with the right vision and skills can turn this into a damn fine car for $25-40k!
D detom (Guest)
Gary, you are the most God-like Pantera owner I know of. You and Ron both. You are a fearless artisan who boldly goes where few dare to tread. My fervent prayer is that once you complete your Pantera, you so fall in love with the Marque, that you become a crusader in salvation of Panteras deemed too far gone by the ignorant and jaded. My hat is off to you as you have by undieng adoration. May God bless and keep you and may his face shine upon you.
I will shut up now.
C coreypriceMember
quote:
Comp2 wrote:

If this is the only way you can get into a super car, damn right guys will jump on it! All you need is a serial number and a title. Guys with the right vision and skills can turn this into a damn fine car for $25-40k!


Doing it right now, but with a car that had all it's bodywork done already. I think it just takes TIME, PATIENCE, a $30k piano, and an understanding wife for me.
robertvegasrobertvegasMember
This turned into a great thread. Nice to hear divergent opinions about the "worth" of the Pantera, and what is worth restoring.

I found the "investment" conversation especially interesting. I didn't buy my car as an investment, but I did want a car that wouldn't massively depreciate. If I am going to own a car for more than five years, then it should be the kind of car I still want to own five (or more) years from now.

I will say that as in investment, the Pantera is doing OK. It is worth more than I paid for it (I think) while my house is worth half what I paid for it. Smiler
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