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intake manifold upgrade

larrywlarrywMember
good morning all,

I've got #7102 up on stands for some winter attention. She came to me from CA last june.

I'm owner #4. Owner #3 basically just drove the car for a few years, little or no work other than maintainence (always done by others). Owner #2 was a real enthusiast and installed most all of the cars many upgrades: engine, cooling, a/c comp, cabin, etc. Owner #1 was a Ford dealer in Arizona I'm told, who had his dealership dress the car up in her current appearance, a Euro GTS package, 8"/10" wheels, riveted on flares, paint and graphics. The only thing it doesn't have is the vented hood, which I would like to find, or maybe I'll have some vents cut in. That stuff is for next year or whenever it presents itself at the right price.

The engine was rebuilt by Jim Grubbs Motorsports about 20K miles ago. Receipts indicate 9.5:1 pistons, a Crane Boss 351C equivalent cam, upgraded oil pump and oil pump drive and a 10 quart oil pan. She's got a nice set of Jet Hot coated GTS style headers with original tail pipes and mufflers. The heads are the originals I'm sure, they're stamped with the same ID # as the builders plate. in 1974 I think that would mean open chambered. Owner #2 had an Edelbrock Torquer intake and a Holley, both of which were removed after a (lost) battle with the C.A.R.B. police. So, now we've got a fully reconstructed stock set-up in place that runs pretty well actually, but of course, we can't leave that alone.

I'm going to pull the stock intake manifold, EGR stuff and Motorcraft 4300D spreadbore and replace with a Blue Thunder two plane intake manifold and 650 CFM Speed Demon Vacuum secondary carb with an electric choke. Both pieces are new.

A few questions have come up.

1. Am I going to have to remove the distributor to swap the manifolds? Doesn't look like I'll have to but will it make life easier?
2. There are two vacuum senders in the coolant lines, one with two nipples, the other with three, that are related to, I believe, engine idle speed control by ignition advance and retard. Will these controls have any place in my new set up? If not I'm just going remove the vacuum hoses and cover the ports with some little dust caps. I don't see any need to pull out the senders.
3. I think the distributor/ignition system is stock. Tag on the distributor reads OE 01 D9TE 12127 AKA, module is a "Duraspark". I cannot see any #s on the module. It has never acted up on me. Should I be doing any more than basic tune up procedures while it's so nice and accessible?
4. Where does the vacuum advance want to get its signal from? Will that affect my initial ignition timing?
5. Considering 4, what should my initial timing be?
6. What spark plugs shall I start out with? It used to run at just about 180 degrees when fully warmed up.
7. Anything else I should be watching out for?

Thanks in advance,
Larry.
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lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
I'll answer what I can.

quote:
1. Am I going to have to remove the distributor to swap the manifolds? Doesn't look like I'll have to but will it make life easier?

No, it can stay.

2. There are two vacuum senders in the coolant lines, one with two nipples, the other with three, that are related to, I believe, engine idle speed control by ignition advance and retard. Will these controls have any place in my new set up? If not I'm just going remove the vacuum hoses and cover the ports with some little dust caps. I don't see any need to pull out the senders.
3. I think the distributor/ignition system is stock. Tag on the distributor reads OE 01 D9TE 12127 AKA, module is a "Duraspark". I cannot see any #s on the module. It has never acted up on me. Should I be doing any more than basic tune up procedures while it's so nice and accessible?

Not stock, as Duraspark was not on Panteras. but this is a very sensible electronic ignition system to use because of parts availability being so universal.

4. Where does the vacuum advance want to get its signal from? Will that affect my initial ignition timing?
5. Considering 4, what should my initial timing be?
6. What spark plugs shall I start out with? It used to run at just about 180 degrees when fully warmed up.

Autolite 25 will be good for starters. DO NOT use the newer high dollar platinum, multi point thingies. They will not last on a carbed car - came on EFI cars and will not tolerate the excess fuel a carb will deliver.

7. Anything else I should be watching out for?


Now might be a good time to pull the dizzy and make sure it has the gear retained with an inner and outer pin. Stock pin has tendency to shear and cause all sorts of issues. Do a search in archives for more info.

I suspect the Blue Thunder does not have a manifold heat passage, so turkey tray is not needed to keep oil off the hot underside of the manifold - burns, turns to ash, drops into oil system = bad.

Whatever gaskets you use and techniques to assure sealing, you should run engine up to normal temp and then let it cool and re-torque at least one more time.

More advice coming for the rest of the gang, I'm sure.

Larry
larrywlarrywMember
Hi again,

Couple other questions came up.

1. When I get the A/C working, (I'm told it just needs a charge- we'll see) will I wish that I'd spent some time mounting/adapting the solenoid that kicks up the idle speed when the A/C compressor comes on? It would be easier to do on the workbench. Is the solenoid really necesary?
2. Any linkage issues I'll encounter trying to make the Demon hook up where the stock Motorcraft spreadbore was? A bracket I'll wish I'd bought?
George PGeorge PAdmin.
The distributor is not the oem distributor, it has been upgraded to a breakerless distributor, which is a very good thing. No need to do any work on the dizzy itself unless the centrifugal advance mechanism appears to be sticky.

The Blue Thunder intake does have the exhaust heat passage, so the turkey tray will be needed. Did you buy the BT intake with the flat carb mount designed for the Pantera?

When replacing intake manifolds there is no need to remove the distributor or drain the coolant (or pull pushrods like in an FE motor). Its best to remove one valve cover because the valve cover edges interfere. Afterwards unbolt the manifold & pry it off.

No you don't need all the vacuum plumbing to the dizzy, just hook the outer cannister to "ported" vacuum.

The fast idle solenoids fail regularly, even back in the seventies. I just set the idle at 1000 rpm and toss them. The Clevo likes the faster idle speed. Since this is a manual transmission equipped car, its not a problem. The fast idle would be a problem with an automatic.

"Double pinning" the distributor gear is necessary "if" a heavy duty oil pump drive shaft has been installed. However, instead of double pinning I've been told the hot tip is a "coiled" roll pin. It looks like a newspaper rolled up. Mc Master Carr refers to them as a heavy duty coiled spring pin. I've not used one yet myself, but I trust the mechanic who told me about them.

http://www.mcmaster.com/

cowboy from hell
Last edited by George P
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
However, instead of double pinning I've been told the hot tip is a "coiled" roll pin. It looks like a newspaper rolled up. Mc Master Carr refers to them as a heavy duty coiled spring pin. I've not used one yet myself, but I trust the mechanic who told me about them.


For the record, I am not an engineer with degrees in metal strength, nor a mechanic with decades of practical experience.

So, on the roll pin issue, I only know what I've read.

But this is in complete conflict with everything I've read for the last six years. Caution against using this type of pin - coiled roll pin - seems universal until this posting.

Larry
George PGeorge PAdmin.
Larry, Larry, Larry,

Coming on a little strong, aren't we?

My experience with double roll pins in Ford Dizzys goes back farther than 6 years, like back to the 1960s. I mention this to point out that if anybody should be leery of this new recommendation, it should be I. Yes the coiled roll pin is new to me too. However the gentleman who gave me this advice has been building race motors since the 1970s and is fairly well known, especially in the Syracuse New York area. I think Ron M referred to him as the legend of Syracuse, LOL.... His name is Dan Hebert. He's no amateur when it comes to building motors, including Clevelands. Dan told me the coiled roll pin is the hot ticket, BETTER than the double roll pin set up.

If you read the McMaster info regarding the coiled roll pin, you'll find it mentions a superior ability to withstand shocks. Just what is needed in this application. I tend to think Dan's advice is solid in this regard.

I wouldn't mention it unless I had confidence in the recommendation, honest. I don't own stock in a roll pin factory.

Rock and Roll

cowboy from hell
Last edited by George P
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
Coming on a little strong, aren't we?

George,

Please don't 'Larry,Larry,Larry' me ever again for posting my opinion. I didn't take you to task for posting yours.

If I was coming on a little strong, I'd have started off with something other than-

....For the record, I am not an engineer with degrees in metal strength, nor a mechanic with decades of practical experience.

So, on the roll pin issue, I only know what I've read....

From the Spirol website is the following page capture. While it does not specifically address a comparison between double pinning and coiled pins, what is does say is of interest.

I don't think I was the one coming in strong.

Larry

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George PGeorge PAdmin.
Larry,

As I read it, your post gave me the impression of an emphatic, urgent, warning to all that the coiled roll pins mentioned by moi were "to be avoided until further notice". As if I had made some recommendation that was contrary to an approved list of Pantera engine modifications that cannot be ammended without higher approval. That's how it came across to me. Hence my description of coming on strong. That's my side of the story.

On your side, you took offence at the Larry, Larry, Larry thing, which I intended nothing more than to be a friendly way of opening the post.

What say you my friend? I believed us to be on friendly terms and still do. I certainly meant nothing condescending in what I wrote. So do we chalk this up to mutual misunderstanding? Here's a big cyber handshake and apology.

George
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
1. Is the spring pin meant to be a weak point ..if and when something jambs .. it shears rather then send metal everywhere ... as it did in my old motor and grind up the cam.

2. How about a tappered solid shear pin and dilling the gear and shaft to suit.



Yes, it may be designed give away, but the damn thing lets loose just on its own, no jamb necessary. Seen that happen on the trip home from Vegas; PCNC had the car back on the road an hour later; there was nothing else going on in the engine that caused the failure of the pin.

I'd be concerned that a tapered pin would work its way out during the high speed rotating it will incur.
accobraaccobraMember
Understandable ... mine gave way on the VEE of the Cross Bronx Expressway and the Major Degan in NYC ... not a place to leave a Pantera .. the tow truck driver wanted to leave me just off the highway .. so 200.oo bill brought me north about 30 miles to my door step.

One of our fellow Engineer / Metalurgists tells me the Tappered pin is the way to go. I probably dont have enough info. I;ll get more info and get the details. If he can make the guns for our soldiers I think he can learn us something new.

Ron
George PGeorge PAdmin.
quote:
Originally posted by accobra:
...Is the spring pin meant to be a weak point ..if and when something jambs .. it shears rather then send metal everywhere ... as it did in my old motor and grind up the cam...


The whole crux of the problem is the Ford oil pump, its a gear rotor type pump, which puts out a smoother flow of oil than a gear pump like those used in a chevy, but the draw back is the Ford pump does not pass debris very well. It tries to lock up and stop turning.

The stock Ford oil pump drive shaft twists very easily. It is not unusual to pull a motor apart and find the stock oil pump drive shaft with one or two full twists in it! But the little roll pin never shears.

The fear is that the oem oil pump drive shaft will snap in two, so all hot rodders & racers replace the stock oil pump drive shaft with a heavy duty unit. The heavy duty drive shaft doesn't "give" when the oil pump passes debris, so the oem roll pin shears instead. This is not just a Cleveland problem, it is a Ford problem in general, as all the V8s employ a gear rotor type oil pump.

Ford didn't design the roll pin to shear, but they did design the drive shaft to deflect (twist) intentionally, so as to allow the oil pump to pass debris. When we smart hot rodders replace the shaft, we defeat Ford's engineering.

The nice part about the roll pin shearing is that the distributor stops turning, the motor stops running, and there is no damage to the motor.


quote:
Originally posted by accobra:
How about a tappered solid shear pin and dilling the gear and shaft to suit...


I would be afraid anything that relies on a taper or a twist to retain the pin may back out as a result of the constant beating the pin takes. The double roll pin has worked very well for decades. The combination of the heavy duty shaft and the double roll pin is bullet proof as far as I know.

Our mutual friend, Dan H, tells me the coiled pin is a better way to go.

cowboy from hell
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