Mechanical free expression; a clean sheet of paper:

Actualy if you are starting absolutely clean page, move the front wheels forward 12 inches and the rear wheels back 6 inches. This will do wonders for high speed stability, enourmous interior room, flat firewall, and give you ample room for headers and gas tank.

Uhm, that may be a little too free (for me). I like the proportions.

Oh Gary, you wouldn't make the car any longer you would just reduce the overhangs by a lot. This would make a crisper handling car by putting more of the mass between the wheels.

Gary,

I have my car in the same place as you.

Headers ..I seen a set fabricated on a Yellow #9 at Pocono and loved what Wally did. The were indiviual up and over but large and tight then exited out thru 31/2" holes to the stock cut outs.
Gas Tank ..same here its going up front. Why becuase you cant get the roll cage in properly. But I may bring the battery to the back thats still up in the air.
Roll Bar: ..I'm contenplating it in the pasenger compartment .. but couple places I think need attention is the upper rear frame just ends into the door jam thats why the roof.
Oil Cooler: WOuld help the engine greatly I have not given that much thought but I have been playing with the idea of side vents to scoop in some air but more on the design of the Lambo Muira.
Gas Tank: There is a co ATL near my house I have emailed them to see whats available and if they would reconstruct a plastic cell to duplicate the Original ..but I'm not a big fan of plastic next to those headers.

Carbon fiber decklid and hood... not given atlernate materials a thought but definately going to alter the steel hood to replicate the GT40 style scoop for improved air flow thru the radiator.
Radiator ... the aluminum with sucker fans work great on both cars.

Oil Accumulator ?? Not sure what purpose this would serve .. in HVAC systems we install them to provide a more consisant flow of oil and remove bubbles

Electric front trunk latch ?

Relays ?

Probably an aftermarket generic hot rod electrical system. Good choice 9138 has a HALL fuse system its great.

Hot rod servo heater valve ?
Rear hood pins Good idea for proper alignment and less chipped paint.

Ideas on covering bottom of car for airflow and to help keep clean ... yes a larger front spoiler and I was scoping this out on the Ferraris.

Engine bay airflow ideas? More ideas then I can put down here... yes I say increase what goes thru the side windows and a fan thru the AC condensor location..

The accumulator will work as a preoiler and as a pressurized oil resivoir should the system pressure become reduced. Cool, definatly fuel cell or AL tank in front.Gary's custom headers, YES. Too much engineering on the front trunk release.. I'll give you my emergency release kit for free.

Thansks Bill seems like a similar principle on the accumulator.

I called ATL there catalog looks like they will cover a wide spectrum.

We have cooks near us in LI for headers.

Ron

The accumilator is a pre-oiler and serves as backup for oil starvation on the track.

The front trunk release I am just going to get one out of a Cadalac. I am tired of slaming that damn thing to get it to close.

Deffinantly carbin fibre hood/decklid

I am going to put my roll bar behind the firewall with mounts back to the wheel well, a second loop across the bottom of the window, mounting atatchments to bolt onto from cabin side for another forward removable bar (both sides) and for seat belt harness attatchment. I am going to tie into the roof hinge and add gussets to ad a X-brace for track events.

With the underbelly I thought of aluminum sheet to cover it with nuts welded on here and there (to bolt into). I would also like to close off some of the engine compartment from road grime but on the otherhand airflow through the engine compartment is good. The catch is finding the right ballance.

Gary, most of the theory to reduce lift on the underside is to increase air speed underneath. The fact that air is having to travel faster over the car than under it is what creats the low presure area and creats lift. So you want to smooth up anything that causes drag under the car. A full pan does wonders. Now the thinking is to also create a venturi under the car and exiting the rear. This is what diffusers are all about. Speeding up the air flow under the car to reduce lift.

I know but I want to do it with out adding too much weight and I don't want to choke off the engine air too much.

Actualy for engine air you guys have the right idea. Scoop in air low on the sides and let it travel up in the engine compartment, which is what it does naturaly. I think the trunk actualy helps improve the air flow, believe it or not. I had the idea of bring air intakes down low like that and through two K&Ns from a 5.o liter application, direct to the inlets of twin turboes that are mounted directly to the exaust manifolds. The outlets would go up along side the engine through water to air intercoolers, branching to individusl runner tubes to a fuel injection system. I would add a secondary FI system just after the intercooler to help further cool the charge and pre-mix a amount of fuel too lean to ignite. This way the main injectors won't have to work as hard and you get better mixing so you can run more boost without predetination.
Cool idea huh?????

I was also possibly thinking of putting the fusebox in the front. I get so tired of sitting on my back looking under a dash trying to figure out whatever.

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Actualy for engine air you guys have the right idea. Scoop in air low on the sides and let it travel up in the engine compartment, which is what it does naturaly. I think the trunk actualy helps improve the air flow, believe it or not. I had the idea of bring air intakes down low like that and through two K&Ns from a 5.o liter application, direct to the inlets of twin turboes that are mounted directly to the exaust manifolds. The outlets would go up along side the engine through water to air intercoolers, branching to individusl runner tubes to a fuel injection system. I would add a secondary FI system just after the intercooler to help further cool the charge and pre-mix a amount of fuel too lean to ignite. This way the main injectors won't have to work as hard and you get better mixing so you can run more boost without predetination.
Cool idea huh?????

I think it would be better not to encourage airflow under the car. If I close it off I would still need air to flow through to evacuate heat from the engine bay. It can either be small openings (compromise) or utalizing some of the other scoops.

I have seen exit scoops in the flat portion of the deck lid but I question how effective they are. That's the wrong spot. I am thinking of vents in the ridges of the deck lids; the high parts just abouve the fender. This would be in the wind pointing aft and would take advantage of the live airflow to exit air.

With regard to air flow . I thought the theory was to reduce it under the car ?? abelly cover would work well louvered with 3" slotts to encourage the air to exit out the bottom due to negitive pressure and two scoops in the side windows would suit the engine fine.

It would take some experimentation .. no doubt.

Ron

DeTom,
You are right about a rear diffuser panel, I think it would help the aerodynamics of the Pantera. If memory serves me correctly, this is the weak spot for the Pantera as far as "dirty" air flow goes. I have been tempted to fabricate one like on the Saleen S7 as seen here.

Electric front trunk latch? I like that idea!

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
With regard to air flow . I thought the theory was to reduce it under the car ?? abelly cover would work well louvered with 3" slotts to encourage the air to exit out the bottom due to negitive pressure and two scoops in the side windows would suit the engine fine.

It would take some experimentation .. no doubt.

Ron

Gennerally I don't think yoy would want air to exit the bottom either. I think you would want to keep from promoting under body airflow as much as possible; although the differences may never be realized by how ..at least I drive. Probably more of an effect for salt flat running.

I have been considering electric power steering modification, it would be on my list.

quote:

Hot rod servo heater valve ?

Mechanical shut offs are still needed for track events.

Good point. I can throw one of those on too!

quote:

Posted June 26, 2006 08:46 PM
Good point. I can throw one of those on too!

To meet PCNC Las Vegas tech, you need TWO shut off valves.

Supply and return.

Larry

quote:

I have seen exit scoops in the flat portion of the deck lid but I question how effective they are.

Back in the day when guys put 180s on they put them louvers in their to let heat escape, thinking that would keep the paint from bubbling. They didn't work all that well because of radiant heat transfer, so they started putting mirrors up there instead.

quote:

Originally posted by ParaPantera:
DeTom,
You are right about a rear diffuser panel, I think it would help the aerodynamics of the Pantera. If memory serves me correctly, this is the weak spot for the Pantera as far as "dirty" air flow goes. I have been tempted to fabricate one like on the Saleen S7 as seen here.

Electric front trunk latch? I like that idea!

I like that Saleen S7. One of those cars that make you angry that you can't afford one.

I'm a bit sceptical about all this air flow talk. Modern engines are jam packed under the hoods with insulation and very little air flow. I think with the proper water pump and aluminum radiator and fans you should not have to worry about air flow around the engine. The air natuarly gets sucked up from the road and pulled out the behind the back glass and leaves debris on the decklid....leave it that way.

LPB we are just talking pure race car stuff. Nothing really practical. Race cars have their engines packed in tight too, but they got radiators for their oil, for their tranny fluid, and intake air. Heck they got coolers all over the place. No we is talking more about getting the car to stick to the track at high speeds. Notice how some of those race cars now a days have skirts all the way around the sides? That is too keep more air out from under. And what does get under there, you want to get out as quick as possible. That is why that chaparell guy put that vacuum cleaner on the back of his. To suck out all the air. He had a seperate snowmobile engine just to power that. Of course the rule people in racing made that illegal. Anything that is too much fun gets made illegal right away.

Well I don't thik you need a lot of airflow but I think you need some just to evacuate the air.

yes the mechanical shut offs and what works the best is WIRSBRO RADIANT BALL VALVES. they are very small, full port, with barb'd fittings to hose clamp on hoses.

I agree Gary. From what I read the Pantera is actually pretty slippery for being such an old car. They did a lot of things right. It is just they have learned a lot since it was built. The overhang thing was one of them. Push the wheels to the outer corners of the car and it handles better. Who knew?? Same with making air flow faster under the car. All them things are just now being incorporated on cars even though racers knew about it thirty years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by lastpushbutton:
I'm a bit sceptical about all this air flow talk. Modern engines are jam packed under the hoods with insulation and very little air flow. I think with the proper water pump and aluminum radiator and fans you should not have to worry about air flow around the engine. The air natuarly gets sucked up from the road and pulled out the behind the back glass and leaves debris on the decklid....leave it that way.

I agree. How much heat transfer are you going to get through a cast iron block anyway. I wouldnt think it would make much of a difference. If you are worried about paint I suppose you could ceramic coat your decklid .I would prefer to throw in an oil cooler along with that aluminum rad. I plan to mold one into the rear passenger wheel well with a shroud. The air generated by the spinning tire as well as the vacuum created by the decklid should give ample airflow to keep the oil cool. I suppose you could throw one in for the transmission with a circulation pump as well. It would do wonders for the transaxle. Greg Esakoff put a cooler on his trans and has been happy with the results.

quote:

I would prefer to throw in an oil cooler along with that aluminum rad. I plan to mold one into the rear passenger wheel well with a shroud. The air generated by the spinning tire as well as the vacuum created by the decklid should give ample airflow to keep the oil cool.

Seems I remember Jack DeRyke tried this and there was no significant difference in oil temps at speed. You may want to check the archives in the POCA email forum.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff6559:


Seems I remember Jack DeRyke tried this and there was no significant difference in oil temps at speed. You may want to check the archives in the POCA email forum.

Most the complaints I have seen from oil coolers is throwing one in a stagnate area with no air flow. My car had one tucked under the wheel well but no air flow. I am going to duct the airflow using a fan and sourcing from the side vent. I would wrather do that then the water/oil collers.

As far as venting the engine compartment, I would think the exhaust alone could use a little bit of airflow to keep the radient heat down. With out some flow some carbs can have problem boiling their fuel.

I suppose it boils down to what extent you go with it. On a car without a belly pan there might not be enough of a vacuum in the engine bay to assist the airflow through the cooler as most of it is filled by air from under the car. I also would prefer to use an air/air cooler and am prepared to experiment till I find a location that works. Reinventing the wheel may not be practical but its much more fun.Bear in mind that the system in my car is a full flow system not just a bypass.

Very interesting stuff, this underbody airflow.

I need it not for grip or speed, but I'd love to save cleaning all the yellow junk off the rear face everytime I run for over an hour.

I've always assumed that on the GT5 the huge wing causes turbulance over the car and any air under the car mixes and curl behind the car and that's what causes my yellowing behind.

Is this true?

quote:

Reinventing the wheel may not be practical but its much more fun.

Well, if I am going to do anythign I figure now is the time:

Right you are!!

http://www.detomaso-tuning.de/65801.html

It would be interesting to know where these guys position it. Running LeMans Classic would surely be a good test!

My feeling with reagrds to cooling is :

In the engine bay the headers are the biggest culprit of heat which radiates and transfers to heat up the engine bay. If rapped with insulating wrap would be my first step.

Next as proven on the track oil coolers do work, but in extreme racing conditions. yes a fan blowing thru the trans cooler for a manual trans then thru they engine cooler would be the next step. The trans would need a little pump.

The radiator well I have thrown around different materials and the thought of some sort of fin tube under the car for the tubes leading from the engine to the radiator to rid the car of some of the ehat ...but then realized due to extreme temps in the interior .. would it be best to insulate these tubes or insulate the floor.

The lay down radiator with a nice GT40 style scoop cut in the hood would cool the car down nice.

The engine bay I think would be best suited if the side windows were made into vents and or scoops ... my personal preference is something small ... I was throwing around the Lambo Muria style ... and ducted to the intake of the motor with maybe a Cobra style Airbox to limit heat exposure to the carb.

Ok my last thought based on experience. I raced a BB FE 428 CJ for a while and experimented a lot. The car ran best HOT 200 -210 degrees. best runs were engine hot and AIR outside 60- 70 degrees. So I'm thinking cool the engine down or just let it maintain a HOT temp ... cool the pass comp so its drivable ... and get cold air into the carb consistantly ??

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
My feeling with reagrds to cooling is :

In the engine bay the headers are the biggest culprit of heat which radiates and transfers to heat up the engine bay. If rapped with insulating wrap would be my first step.

Next as proven on the track oil coolers do work, but in extreme racing conditions. yes a fan blowing thru the trans cooler for a manual trans then thru they engine cooler would be the next step. The trans would need a little pump.

The radiator well I have thrown around different materials and the thought of some sort of fin tube under the car for the tubes leading from the engine to the radiator to rid the car of some of the ehat ...but then realized due to extreme temps in the interior .. would it be best to insulate these tubes or insulate the floor.

The lay down radiator with a nice GT40 style scoop cut in the hood would cool the car down nice.

The engine bay I think would be best suited if the side windows were made into vents and or scoops ... my personal preference is something small ... I was throwing around the Lambo Muria style ... and ducted to the intake of the motor with maybe a Cobra style Airbox to limit heat exposure to the carb.

Ok my last thought based on experience. I raced a BB FE 428 CJ for a while and experimented a lot. The car ran best HOT 200 -210 degrees. best runs were engine hot and AIR outside 60- 70 degrees. So I'm thinking cool the engine down or just let it maintain a HOT temp ... cool the pass comp so its drivable ... and get cold air into the carb consistantly ??

Ron

Ron, I have been looking at the idea of the aluminum finned pipe under the car. My only concern is it may heat up the passenger compartment.

I plan on ducting the side vents but not for intake. I am putting webbers on. The intake I want to go over the oil cooler. Since the scoop is not a big scoop it will need help so I will use a fan.

Gary

Gray .. I'm in the HVAC business and I have not come accross any 11/4 tube with fins that will fit under this car. Only maybe Aluminum Pipe which has the best heat transfer.

I also will be running webers ... so one from one side and the intake from the other.

Ron

The local hotrod shop can get this type of tubing in any length I need. Not sure about ID yet. They also have incerts which are designed to turn the fluid within the tubing:



I thought if they could get the correct size it may be a good replacement for the under car tubing.


I also thought this looked interesting:

http://www.kentube.com/fintruth.shtml