Skip to main content

First of all Charlie, thak you very much for taking the picture of the bulkhead cover for me.
I read about your car on Pantera Place.
It said that your engine blew the day after you bought the car.
It also said that the only thing that you reused in the engine was the block.
I am sorry for your troubles. That one was a "killer".
I had always heard that Detomaso used Australian blocks in some of the later cars.
Was yours?
Oh I did try to PM (private Message) you but either it doesn't work or I'm to stupid to figure it out.
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Hi PD,

I don't know if Instant Messaging works or not if both parties are not on-line? I check in when I can, but tend to be away for a couple of days at a time.

The story of my engine is a long and painful one. When I bought my car, the engine was 100% stock, and had the DeTomaso "sport" option, which included basically a different intake and Holley carb. It was in fact an Australian Cleveland.

While driving home from buying it, I broke a valve spring. Long story, but finding Cleveland valve springs in the middle of no-where in France (which is where I was) was long. Two months later and I had my car back.

A month after getting the car back, I broke another valve spring. Getting tired of replacing valve springs one at a time in far-away shops, I decided to replace ALL the valve springs. And as long as I was replacing the valve springs, I may as well replace the heads that hold them, right? And as long as I'm changing that, I'd better install a new cam, a new intake, new carb, electronic ignition, blah blah blah. You know how that goes...

I got the car back 8 months later and it ran fantastically. For about a month. It started bending pushrods on a regular basis, and as the pushrods bent they came out of the socket on the roller rocker and beat that up pretty badly. A very long story (that appeared in POCA - I can send you a copy of the article if you'd like) but I went with Mike Drew to the 24 hours of Le Mans, then from there to the DeTomaso factory, and from there to the International DeTomaso Meeting in northern Italy. I basically spent every morning adjusting valve lash to compensate for my bending pushrods and keep my engine running for another day.

The engine basically lived until the end of the meeting and not much more, as I didn't make it home. So it went back to the shop.

The root cause of the problem was poor head preparation. I bought the Aussie quench heads from an outfit in California that basically did a very poor job. The oiling problems that resulted from pushrods coming loose broke whatever components hadn't been replaced in rebuild #1, so rebuild #2 was basically just as complete.

Touching anything even resembling wood, the engine has worked flawlessly since then. I still have a fairly large collection of bent pushrods, but think that those are a thing of the past.

Later cars had Australian Clevelands, but other than having walls a little thicker I don't know of any real advantage. The stock 351C felt a lot like the stock US-Cleveland I had in my old '72. It wasn't particularly rev-happy, and would really run out of gas around 5500 rpm. I think that DeTomaso's estimte of 350hp for their sport option was probably optimistic.

I don't know exactly when they switched from Clevelands to Windsors, but sometime around 1987-1988 or so. And having spoken personally to some Windsor-powered owners, the sport option they paid extra for on their engines was, well, kind of bogus, as they got bone-stock Windsor truck engines.

I forgot the original question.... ;-)
No I can't. All my preferences are set "on". It still doesn't work.
Charlie McCall thinks that both parties need to be on line at the same time. He may be correct.
Eventually I'll (we'll) figure it out. I thought that the system was just supposed to shoot an email to you, but what do I know?
Hey, I thought you might want to know that I've got wild coyottes, turkeys and redtail hawks here. Maybe they are keeping the wild emu population down here?
Hi all,

a) I have no idea if Private Messaging requires both parties to be on-line. Just a guess. Could be an explanation though?? I guess we'll see....
b) I can't tell you what the casting number is, although I looked it up once-upon a time. It's snowing right now (?!!) so the car is back under covers for a while. My garage isn't all that nearby or I'd run down and look it up.
c) I've had my share of engines break, and I don't believe that any of the problems are due to a fundemental problem with the Cleveland. My '72 broke a 2-piece valve and swallowed it, which is a known weak point. It doesn't do good things to the inside of the engine!

I don't know if we'll ever know what the cause of all the problems were. My suspicion is that I have bought cars that have been babied and nursed and taken out once a month for a light drive, and then *I* get my hands on them, Mwah ha ha ha ha...

My '72 had been driven 1100 miles in the 15 years before I bought it. I put that many miles on it in the first month I had it.

My GT5-S had basically only been driven on sunny Sundays, and I bought it and drove it across Germany to get home (ahem, no speed limits on the Autobahn). So perhaps an engine that sees little use doesn't take well to drastic changes in routine? I don't abuse any car, no matter its position on the automotive food chain, but I didn't exactly tip-toe across Germany either.

The meeting after I had all the problems with my valvetrain, I went to Semur en Auxois for the International Meeting. The car ran extremely well. We spent some time on a small track we had rented, and in a burst of enthusiasm, I left a healthy burnout on the track as my time was up. Bad idea. Back in the hotel parking lot, someone noticed that my rear tires were down to cord. As most everyone knows, I suppose, 345/35/15 tires are kind of hard to find. To make a long story short, I borrowed a car, drove 1400 kilometers to my house to get spare rear tires, turned around and drove 1400 kilometers back...

When my wife's mom saw a car with French plates pull into their parking lot, she said "I don't know why, but I just have this feeling that that is Charlie...." One more International Meeting that I returned home in a different car than planned, although this time it was due to "operator headspace".

In 2004, at the following International Meeting they awarded me with the "DeTomaso Spirit" award or something, for having suffered more than anyone else but having perservered. It's true that I did suffer, but I knew that the Cleveland CAN be a reliable powerplant, and it was just a matter of time before good triumphed over evil and I'd have a reliable car.

I wouldn't worry about your Cleveland. I know people with 200,000+ kilometers on their cars without it ever having skipped a beat. There is nothing magical about them - it is a solid, reliable engine. People tend to have problems because they start tinkering with them and perhaps the parts don't work well together, or you are stressing the engine beyond what it was intended to do.

If your engine has a weak point, my philosophy has been to drive it to find out what it is!
Here's a couple of thoughts. Did you ever wonder why the aluminum Detomaso valve covers were never installed on the cars at the factory? My "inside" information says that Ford had such little regard for Detomasos mechanics that they would not let them remove the valve covers and still have waranty.
About 15 years ago "we" had a Ford 427 engine shipped to "us" from England to be tuned and have the valves adjusted. The owner felt that it worth the cost of the round trip shipping to have Americans work on the engine. Of course I tried to convince the owner just to send me round trip air tickets to go there.
My personal opinion is that the CJ should never have been the engine of choice as standard equipment in any version of the car. It should have been the Boss or another engine series like the Boss 302.
Sorry, this stuff is neither "here nor there", just miscellanious ramblings of mine.
With regard to neither "here nor there", I just uploaded the story of the adventure in 2001. Mike Drew made some photo-montage things that documented our trip, as it included fast cars, driving DeTomaso prototypes, mechanical woes, and all kinds of adventure.

It may be seen on my Yahoo webpage, as listed in my signature. The folder is called "Pantera Adventure 2001" or something. I can't post the article I wrote, as Yahoo doesn't like Acrobat files, but I can send it to anyone interested.

My opinion of the DeTomaso mechanics? I'd rather not say anything, but you get a hint of my feelings in the photos I just loaded when they charged me $1700 to change my headers to fix a problem with a bent pushrod...
Geez, I don't remember any more!!

Actually, this started as a result of the engine problems I had on my trip in 2001. The story of that trip is located in the "Pantera Adventure in 2001" folder. You should read them in order.

There's all kinds of stuff in there - visits to the Lamborghini factory, the DeTomaso factory, close up shots of when my rear wheel fell off my car when the a-arm pulled through the chassis... various trips to Le Mans and so forth.
Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×