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No excuse

M modokMember
So, due to personal and work responsibilities, have had the Pantera out of the garage about 4 times in the last 3 years. Was straightening out the garage last week and thought, " I have a couple hours to myself, lets take a quick ride". About a mile from my house, I accelerated from an intersection in a very "spirited" way. Smoking tires in first, started to drift. Thought I could pull it out, grabbed second, car hooks straight and I feel like a real driver, accelerator against the floor. Grab third and the car goes into slight drift again, still have my foot in it. I know what will happen if I lift. I am attempting to steer out of it but it drifts and drifts. Car is getting seriously crossed up now. Crap. "no problem" I tell myself, "just pedal it and get her straight". Like a true, awesome, race car driver I pedal it. Car swaps ends, goes sliding off the road, though a road sign and into ditch.
Crap.
Damage is surprisingly light, but the road sign did a number on the rear quarter panel. It could/should have been much worse. I learned a valuable lesson. I am not nearly as good a driver as I think I am, and the Pantera is much tougher than it looks.
I feel stupid, but now gives me the excuse to pull it apart and really fix it up the way I want it.
And take some driving classes.
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George PGeorge PAdmin.
I almost lost an acquaintance to a Z07 'Vette with the traction control turned off, about a decade ago.

A Z07 was a car with so much engineering built into it, it sat so low to the ground, had the best suspension, and the best tires. Yet when he turned-off the traction control and jabbed the gas pedal the car pirouetted across the freeway and collected into the center divider. He crawled out from the rubble with minor scrapes.

I thought of our Panteras, and old muscle cars in general; I had so enthusiastically given folks advice about building so much power into the motors. I realized the danger for the first time in my life. The responsibility of offering advice that could kill people humbled me. It changed my perspective. That's when I stopped giving advice about strokers and unlimited amounts of horsepower. That was my epiphany. I'm just glad you're OK. Sharing the experience as you have takes courage, bravo for that.
panteradougpanteradougMember
A Pantera can be in so many ways like an old "Can-Am" car. Especially when you put more cubic inches in it. The 5.7L is a good way to limit the risk and in my opinion was definitely part of the consideration of all of this way back?

To blame it on the tires isn't the way to go either. Driving on race tires is another thing all together and handle the "drifting" part much better but you don't drift a car on a public street.

There is a learning curve with anything. Some don't survive the coarse.

If you will recall, the Ford GT's have a reputation for being death sleds. The "Registrar" for those cars has said that close to 1/3 were either wrecked or destroyed. Most at almost new.

As 'Dirty Harry' said, "a mans got to know his limitations".

Glad to hear that you are still around to talk about it? I remember a local story so similar to your circumstances about 15 years ago where there were no sign posts involved, just trees. Seems nothing survived running through the tree "gauntlet"...except the trees.

I have my moments of weakness and so far, my memory is good and my right foot light enough? It's all part of being a 'survivor' I suppose?

I do remember spinning in my own oil from a broken oil cooler line. Fortunately the road was empty.
garth66garth66"When speed is the only thing that counts"
So, all judgement aside about street tires, driving ability, and exhibition of speed, Modoc's experience begs the question...
What is the right response when the rear ends starts to get loose under heavy acceleration?

We've all gotten on it hard at times, either getting on the highway or leaving a red light. And there's countless videos online of Corvettes, Mustangs and Ferrari's taking off hard from a stop, having the rear end come out to one side, then going off the road into incoming traffic, trees, or on-lookers.

So, what is the best thing to do if the rear end starts coming out in a Pantera on a straight line launch???
- Let off the gas? We've all been told don't do that as you'll spin instantaneously.
- Keep your foot in it, ride it out, and pray for the best? Makes things sound unrecoverable.

What's the collective wisdom here say?
panteradougpanteradougMember
Ford's "thing" was to have the car handle "predictably" to an "American", i.e., if the rear starts coming around under acceleration, ease off of the throttle.



The rear anti-sway bar was purposely kept small, the brake bias heavily forward, the wheels limited to 7 & 8".



They had this experience previously with at least the first 427 Cobras and the earliest Mangustas.



In the case of the Cobra it was called "snap steer". In the case of the Mangusta, "trailing throttle oversteer". The fix on the Mangusta was wider rear wheels, unequal front and rear tire sizes and profiles.



The 427 Cobra went another way. EQUAL size width wheels on the street car. Larger front anti-sway bar.



When the Pantera GTS was introduced it went with a larger rear anti-sway bar.



The issue now with the Pantera really is that the bias transfer is played with from the original engineering. Remember it came with 185-70-15 fronts and 255 rears.



When you go with a wider tire profile you actually get less traction per square inch of contact because the tire patch is larger but the loading becomes the same.



"We" also have different tire configurations available to us. Many have properties that a race tire would have in that there is NO warning before it looses traction.



Few who drive 99.99% of the time on the street have the experience to instantaneously instinctively react properly. Most will stab at the brakes and stomp the accelerator. The key here is to drive like you are driving on snow. That's how gentle you have to be.



Anything with 400 hp being put on the street is going to be a handful.



MANY of the "street" ultra high performance tires have compound on them that are formulated just like race tires and both the tread and the pavement need to be at the proper operating temps.



Here in the east, put the "summer" compounds away when the air temps go under 40F. The colder it gets, the more lethal the combination becomes.



The real answer is to take the car along with you to driving school and learn what it does on the track and under duress under controlled conditions. There is no other way to know, and just knowing isn't enough. You have to practice with it just like the factory race teams do the week or day before the race happens.


So many of these cars are just untested "race cars" on the street. That's not good. Race cars belong on a race track. Let the engineers do their jobs. They know/knew what they were doing. If 'you' want to take the risk because you think you only jeopardize yourself, think again. What would happen if there were hikers, or dog walkers or school kids on a field trip when the control of the car got lost?
davidbdavidbMember
Like most of us, I have also been is similar situations - minus the ditch part - mainly during my very early days of Pantera ownership.

When you start getting sideways a quick opposite flick of the steering wheel and back to center will handle it. Lifting also works but sometimes compounds the problem, especially in a corner.

Whether an old school muscle car, a brand new super car, or even a new daily driver, it is always a good idea to spend serious time to understand how it works.

Find an local shopping center with a big parking lot and wide spaced lamp posts. Go there when it's empty in the wet and the dry. Put the hammer down and saw the steering wheel. After a few times you will have a good understanding of how it reacts and what to do. Do this every couple of years. So it becomes automatic in an emergency.

I have been upping the HP for some time and continue to push the envelope with my right foot. So far there is nothing unusual or unmanagable no matter how hard I accelerate.
panterawanabepanterawanabeMember
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Ford's "thing" was to have the car handle "predictably" to an "American", i.e., if the rear starts coming around under acceleration, ease off of the throttle.



The rear anti-sway bar was purposely kept small, the brake bias heavily forward, the wheels limited to 7 & 8".



They had this experience previously with at least the first 427 Cobras and the earliest Mangustas.



In the case of the Cobra it was called "snap steer". In the case of the Mangusta, "trailing throttle oversteer". The fix on the Mangusta was wider rear wheels, unequal front and rear tire sizes and profiles.



The 427 Cobra went another way. EQUAL size width wheels on the street car. Larger front anti-sway bar.



When the Pantera GTS was introduced it went with a larger rear anti-sway bar.



The issue now with the Pantera really is that the bias transfer is played with from the original engineering. Remember it came with 185-70-15 fronts and 255 rears.



When you go with a wider tire profile you actually get less traction per square inch of contact because the tire patch is larger but the loading becomes the same.



"We" also have different tire configurations available to us. Many have properties that a race tire would have in that there is NO warning before it looses traction.



Few who drive 99.99% of the time on the street have the experience to instantaneously instinctively react properly. Most will stab at the brakes and stomp the accelerator. The key here is to drive like you are driving on snow. That's how gentle you have to be.



Anything with 400 hp being put on the street is going to be a handful.



MANY of the "street" ultra high performance tires have compound on them that are formulated just like race tires and both the tread and the pavement need to be at the proper operating temps.



Here in the east, put the "summer" compounds away when the air temps go under 40F. The colder it gets, the more lethal the combination becomes.



The real answer is to take the car along with you to driving school and learn what it does on the track and under duress under controlled conditions. There is no other way to know, and just knowing isn't enough. You have to practice with it just like the factory race teams do the week or day before the race happens.


So many of these cars are just untested "race cars" on the street. That's not good. Race cars belong on a race track. Let the engineers do their jobs. They know/knew what they were doing. If 'you' want to take the risk because you think you only jeopardize yourself, think again. What would happen if there were hikers, or dog walkers or school kids on a field trip when the control of the car got lost?


Fords thing was to make them act predictably. That was to understeer in corners. Understeer is the easiest to control. Easing off the throttle is the worst thing you can do when the ass steps out.

The rear sway bar was kept small for understeer. Bigger rear bar, more oversteer(or less understeer). More chance for the uninitiated to get themselves killed. Oversteer kills Doug!

The brake bias is heavily to the front because that is where the weight shifts to when you brake, so it has the most traction and stopping power.

Wheels were kept small because they were cheap! Wide tyres were expensive back in the day.

The question is what do you do when a Pantera tries to spin you around? All that weight in the back trying to overtake the front. I suspect if you are hard on the throttle with a fist full of opposite lock and the back still wants to overtake the front you're just along for the ride. No matter how good the driver.
panteradougpanteradougMember
Understeer. Absolutely, it makes the car the most predictable. Yes. Agreed.

A car with more rear bias is more difficult to balance. Mangusta, Pantera, 911 series Porsche, 427 Cobra. All in the 40f/60r ranges.

The tuning is the difficult part but it is being tuned for "recovery", i.e., what happens after it breaks loose.

I find a stock Pantera very predicable and recovery is simple. Modified cars will get different results.

My 930, that was another story. You feed it the accelerator. Unnerving really.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
I have always said that with a nice sensitive mid-engined car, the worst thing you can have is lots of experience in Corvettes or the like. Move the steering a little when at speed in a 'vette, nothing happens for a period. With a mid-engine car, you'd best have an armful of opposite lock steering in hand with the same amount of wheel motion.

Beyond the deserted parking lot, I advise running local autocrosses; speeds do not exceed 50mph, courses are wide & safe, and people at the events are very willing to give driving advice and even setup tips.
michael1424michael1424It takes energy not to get used to it!
Sounds like when I finally get to take mine on the road I'll need to find a track / place where I can stretch it safely. This is the most powerful car I've ever driven and owned, so I'm all green in many ways - but so looking forward to getting to know how to deal with its power and prowess!

I truly envy those who can grab something like a Pantera and give it hell and keep it tidy. Life Goal.
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
I have always said that with a nice sensitive mid-engined car, the worst thing you can have is lots of experience in Corvettes or the like. Move the steering a little when at speed in a 'vette, nothing happens for a period. With a mid-engine car, you'd best have an armful of opposite lock steering in hand with the same amount of wheel motion.

Beyond the deserted parking lot, I advise running local autocrosses; speeds do not exceed 50mph, courses are wide & safe, and people at the events are very willing to give driving advice and even setup tips.


The Pantera isn't complicated but it is different. Anything with a 40/60 weight bias is going to have a learning curve.

There are too many parameters that are too easy to change in this car and the tendency is to modify them with the consequences of those modifications largely unknowns.

Many of these Panteras are now as powerful as the Can-Am race cars were and those cars have a very well deserved reputation as death sleds. Don't believe me? Go look at the records. Some very experienced big time drivers are no longer around as a result of these high powered combinations.

Now we have complete novices driving around with them on the streets.

For the most part the car is VERY safe and stable but go into the race car category and you better go rent a track for a few days and go through some tires and brakes.

A nice open track with no trees to run into and no rattlesnakes to step on when you run into the sand pits...but you WILL learn what and what not to do.

Probably the worst thing you can do is put more cubic inches in the car. There is just no way to learn how to come out of a high speed corner without laying down too much torque.

That's ok for drag race type applications but the twisty, narrow and slippery public roads here in the Hudson Valley area you might even want to run only 5 liters with this thing?
O osofastMember
Sorry to hear about your little accident. I am no Pro driver by any stretch of the imagination, but to add to what David, and Bosswrench wrote. I would recommend adding figure eights to any driving skills practices. Any time I get a new vehicle, new to me, or had been teaching my kids how to learn any new type of riding skills. I found the figure eight will give you a great bias on how a vehicle of any sort is going to behave in a small footprint that utilizes both right, and left hand balance.
Jeff

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