non driven cars

I found out a month ago one was sold just down the road; right under my nose. It actually ran and I didn't even know it was there.

Here is another one who's a friends:

Dave! I've been "soap boxing" about this very subject for a long time.

5262 Panteras were imported by Ford into the US alone. Lets say 2000 have been destroyed. That leaves 3262. Between the US membership of POCA and Pantera International we can probably account for 1200 cars, 1500 on the outside.

That leaves 1700 to 2000 Panteras locked away in garages, barns and hangers collecting dust.

cowboy from hell

True story.

We got a phone call the other day, from an elderly gentleman (We're talking 80 years old kind of elderly) who needed advice on selling his Pantera. He hasn't been able to drive his Pantera for "decades" because he has a prosthetic leg. He said he didn't know why he's kept the car so long, guesses he just hates to part with it. (You know, it will be hard for each of us to part with our cars too when that time comes). He said its time to sell it and let some younger person enjoy it the way he did. I'll bet he needs the money to put a grand child through college or something like that.

Im a sucker for stories like this, I'm always off looking at some long buried car...never come across a Pantera!!

Same here in the Dayton area. Seems I'm the only one who drives the beast on a regular basis including my daily drive to work, weather permitting, of course. Every once in a while, someone will come up to me during the local cruise-ins and car shows to say they have a Pantera, and I'll look around and ask "Where is it?" Always the same response that they don't drive it much or at all including one with 7000 miles on display in a local RV dealership. I don't get it, either.

Anyway, here's a pic of my Pantera at work parked across from a big, lumbering Corvette...

Ron
#3336

I have thought about this long and hard. Guys don't worry about it. Those 2000 Panteras are absolutely worthless. They can't be repaired except by experts and it would cost more to fix them than what they are worth. So guys who own them can't sell them because in their minds the cars are worth way more than anyone would ever pay them for it. So the car will rust away into nothingness. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
In the mean time there are way more Panteras running around than there are people who want to own them. That is why Panteras are selling for so cheap. Everyone loves how they look, but not enough to actualy pay for it though. They would rather have their SUV than your car. Sure they say they want your car, but only if you give it to them for free. The Pantera is suffering in value because it was the most succesful exotic car ever built. Sold way more of them than they did the Ford GT and they were comparably priced if inflation is considered.
Face it, when you are talking exotic cars, Panteras are as common as dirt.

Ah, the old chicken or egg conundrum when it comes to restoring Panteras. Do we invest in restoring them even tho we know we won't recover our investment. (true for almost any car restoration) There are two parts to this issue.

First, the chicken. We need to have rising resale values. In this way, there is some justification in investing in the cars, which supports our vendors, etc., etc. More importantly, it tells the market that these are interesting and rewarding cars. Which leads to the egg part of the issue.

We need buyers to to raise prices. Here we have a real awareness issue. We need to educate and inform. George has it right, we need some more "soapboxing!" It will take a real and interesting branding effort that emphasizes the good things about the car, removes the stigmas of its early reputation, and overcomes objections. (And as part of this, we need to make sure that potential buyers know exactly what they are buying. I've seen way to many cars where the buyer found too many surprises and problems that should have been discovered beforehand.)

I can easily list 10-20 items under each of these three branding parts that builds an emotional response to the car. And it's that emotional response we want. We aren't looking for the Ferrari snobs, we're looking for the Ferrari guy who is bored by his car. We're looking for the guy who wants something different because it's technically better and much more interesting. We're looking for the guy who wants to stand out from the crowd, who wants that silly grin that we all get when we drive the cars, who will be willing to get on his soapbox because he knows why the car is better. (The reverse snob!)

So, when someone asks me about the cars, I want a 30 second reply that addresses each of these. Here's my stab at it. Suggestions and comments appreciated on the car itself and also who the potential buyer is.


What is a DeTomaso Pantera?

Panteras are mid-engined GT cars produced in Italy by DeTomaso Automobili(Provenance) and imported into the United States by Ford Motor Company in the early 1970s. The car is a combination of the potent Ford 351 Cleveland V8 engine, Italian design, mid-engine steel monocoque chassis, fully independent suspension, and ZF transaxle, the same transaxle used in the LeMans winning Ford GT40s and BMW M1s(Provenance). As a result, it has exceptional power, balance, handling, and looks, especially compared to other exotics of that era.

What makes the Pantera a good car to own?

Basically, it comes down to a high fun to dollar ratio. Panteras have sophisticated, designed styling that still looks contemporary today. The cabin has luxurious creature comforts, including air conditioning and power windows. The 351 Cleveland engine is easily massaged to the 350HP range and it can be built to churn out 600HP for less than the price to rebuild a Ferrari 308’s transaxle. A race bred, Gian Paolo Dallara (builder of today’s IRL cars) suspension(Provenance) together with an advanced monocoque chassis makes for exciting, yet compliant handling that is still more than competitive today.

Properly updated and maintained cars are very reliable. There is an active vendor community so parts are readily available and reasonably priced and the car is relatively easy to maintain, especially compared to other exotics. Additionally, there is a great selection of aftermarket performance parts and accessories to personalize your car for show, racing, looks, or cruising. That’s what makes it fun. Panteras are drivers. We value fun, style, quality of workmanship and the driving experience.

And lastly, there are 30 years of Pantera experience and knowledge embodied in the people of the Pantera Owners Club of America. Tech sessions, internet tech forums and archives are a valuable part of the ownership experience. There is nothing better than sharing that and having a good time with other club members.

How many Panteras were produced?

Approximately 7,200 worldwide. DeTomaso continued to make Panteras until 1994. In addition, DeTomaso also produced the Vallenga, Mangusta, Deauville, Longchamp, Bigua, and Guara, as well as a number of race cars.

Are Panteras raced?

Yes, and quite successfully. Most racing is done at local events throughout the year, usually in connection with other clubs. Member racing culminates at the club’s yearly convention in Las Vegas where there are three days of organized racing. Pantera racing activities support experienced racers as well as sessions for novices who just want to enjoy their cars at speed.

Panteras are also competitive racers at national Open Road Racing events such as the Silver State Classic in Nevada and the Big Bend Open Road Race in Texas, competing and winning in all speed categories against much newer cars like Vipers, Ferraris, Porsches, and Corvettes.

Panteras can also be set up and qualified for vintage racing events.(Provenance) In addition, there were fourteen lightweight Group 4 and Group 5 racing Panteras produced by the factory that have significant racing histories including Le Mans(Provenance) . In fact, one of those Group 4 cars recently raced at Classic Le Mans this summer.

What are Panteras valued at?

There is strong collector interest in Panteras because they have contemporary good looks, provide a high level of performance and parts are readily available. Typically much faster and better handling than Ferrari 308s or 328s, Panteras are an excellent value and are reasonable to maintain. As with any car, pricing depends on condition. Good Panteras can be had for $35,000 to $50,000.

quote:

Those 2000 Panteras are absolutely worthless.

A bit harsh, don't ya think?

Later this summer/fall I will see a Fresno Pantera finally back together after sitting for about 15 years. Owner rebuilt the calipers and a new MC and some gentle around town driving at that point showed no major problems. He then rebuilt the Cleveland, did engine bay clean up and the car is in the soon-to-be painted stage. Now, an inside stored car from around here doesn't really have any storage rust issues, to be sure. He had done new Green Stripe hoses just before it started to languish which still appear quite serviceable. He found the gas tank had no rust problems at all. It needs TLC, and will no doubt present some issues once it is really driven. But it was far from worthless and did not take an expert to give it its rebirth.

Now if I can just get my kids' orthodontist off his tight-wad wallet, I'll be able to see another 15 year derelict Pantera on its way to recovery.

Then it is on to the son of the old-time wrecking yard owner who has a 72 stored away, that he woefully described to me as "like money in the bank" as it continues to sit undriven for about 20 years.

Additionally this weekend we had a PCNC Concours de la Garage, where we visited owners with seldom seen, or seldom driven, or needing restoration Panteras/Mangustas. One original owner 74 was a GORGEOUS car highly upgraded with EFI and 20"/17" wheels and about 18K on the odometer. He is not a club member, does not participate in any events and obviously rarely drives his car. The point here is that there must be many more cars owned, loved, in great condition but not on the POCA/PI radar screen.

So all those 2000 cars are not necessarily derelict, nor too far gone for resurrection.

So guys, go find one in YOUR home town and nurture it back to the land of the living.

Larry

I am part of the 2000 plus non club member owners. PI and POCA are great for those of you in areas with local clubs. Here in Atlanta there is no chapter of either organization.

However, we do have Mike Dailey, Dick Koch and other active Pantera enthusiasts. There are Panteras here in Atlanta that have not seen the road in many years. Dick’s Pantera (original owner) sat for a long time.

I just think that there are a lot of Pantera owners who are not club affiliated that do drive their cars and are not club members. With the 2 great internet Pantera registries we will someday get a better handle on how many Panteras are really still out there and in what condition.

I hope that everyone with a Pantera in any condition will take the time to register their cars on both sites.

Mr. Koch? The rest of the Georgia Pantera owner community? Where are your cars ?

quote:

Originally posted by Pantera 4134:
...PI and POCA are great for those of you in areas with local clubs. Here in Atlanta there is no chapter of either organization...

Pantera International has no local chapters. People all around the world, in the most remote areas of the world, belong to Pantera International.

The mission of Pantera International was established long ago by our founder Fred Matsumoto. I respectfully do my best to steer the club guided by his founding mission, which is to provide support to Pantera owners, by providing a platform where they can share information and network with one another, to watch out for the best interests of Pantera owners, and to do what we can to advance this hobby. It was Pantera International that called Ford to task in the 1970's about the rust issue, and about the spare parts issue.

These forums are provided free by Pantera International, and are just one of many ways we support this hobby today. We also support and sponsor events across North America for the benefit of Pantera owners. We have volunteer representatives in many areas of the world, including Mike Daley and Al Rubin in your neck of the woods. I am working with individuals, manufacturers and vendors to bring new products to market for the benefit of the Pantera hobby. The magazine brings owners together from around the world, sharing their ownership experiences, technical knowledge and more. The magazine and these forums are the platforms enabling our members to communicate with one another. How many people would be aware of the registries you wrote of if they weren't promoted on these forums? The club magazine has received praise recently from many positions very high up in the publishing world. Most members wait expectantly for each issue to reach their door, we must be doing something right.

You don't have to be located in Southern California for Pantera International to benefit you. We have 15 members in Georgia, 5 in the Atlanta area, soon there will be six when Jesper relocates there from Boston. Whether you realize it or not, this organization does support you. Each member of Pantera International strengthens the club and ensures we can continue doing what we do, and enables us to plan new things for the future.

If you've never seen the magazine, I'd be glad to forward a copy to you for your consideration. If you approve of what we're doing, I would appreciate your support.

take care, George

quote:

A bit harsh, don't ya think?

Yeah cause it kinda pisses me off that we advise people to junk Panteras with a little rust and yet folks pay 5000 bucks for 66 mustangs that are rusted so bad that they have to load it on the trailer with a shovel. It just ain't fair I tell ya.

quote:

Originally posted by jeff6559:
Ah, the old chicken or egg conundrum when it comes to restoring Panteras. Do we invest in restoring them even tho we know we won't recover our investment. (true for almost any car restoration) There are two parts to this issue.

First, the chicken. We need to have rising resale values. In this way, there is some justification in investing in the cars, which supports our vendors, etc., etc. More importantly, it tells the market that these are interesting and rewarding cars. Which leads to the egg part of the issue.

We need buyers to to raise prices. Here we have a real awareness issue. We need to educate and inform. George has it right, we need some more "soapboxing!" It will take a real and interesting branding effort that emphasizes the good things about the car, removes the stigmas of its early reputation, and overcomes objections. (And as part of this, we need to make sure that potential buyers know exactly what they are buying. I've seen way to many cars where the buyer found too many surprises and problems that should have been discovered beforehand.)
[...]
Good Panteras can be had for $35,000 to $50,000.

There seem to be 2 threads imbedded in this one: (i) is the Pantera market one that can support investment in the car and (ii) what does the 2000 or so "off radar" Panteras do? - what do they mean for the marque? - how can they preserved and add value to the marque and the market - at least that is what I read into this thread - and I see the two as related.

Taking them in the order listed, I agree with much of what Jeff has written. There is not only a chicken and egg...but also a double edged sword metaphor here.

As Jeff notes, there is a range of Pcar prices - from what I have seen, the high end (albeit a bit thin) is higher than 50K - perhaps as high as 65K depending on uniquenes, upgrades, etc. That in itself tells us that there is a market for the cars to trade in - someone who buys smart and reconditions, modifies, upgrades selectively can come in at the 25-35K range and perhaps exit at the 40-50K range - perhaps this covers the investment, perhaps this nets a small return - in either case, it creates a bedrock that allows people to selectively buy, restore/modify and sell cars.

I agree with Jeff that there is a ceiling on the car, and that dictates the cost/benefit result of any restoration/modification - but that is true of most (perhaps not all) older cars. It is also true that if there were a "hotter market" for the cars, people could invest more - but would your return be all that much greater? - do the investments in the car truly add to the enjoyment - because with the added cost, your return will likely be the same - that is, if the cars sell for 150K and so you decide to spend 140K - is that all that much different than where you are today?

And now for the double edged sword - as the market heats up for the car, people like me would be out of it - many of us (some of us at least) cannot afford that cashflow, even if the ultimate return is there. Also, it would probably take away the biggest PR aspect of the car - it is a driver!!

For me that is the biggest attraction and the most important element to safeguard. I for one do not want a trailer queen. I bought a 72 Euro GTS for 32K and have put virtually nothing in to it (albeit a recent meeting with a curb has sidelined it - but that has been covered by insurance) - and quess what? - I drive it it on average 3 days a week - I would drive it every day but my boss deems it an unsafe car and I have agreed to limit my driving and drive to work via secondary roads - a decent bargain in return for her agreeing to the purchase.

This ties in to LF's comment - just drive it - at least that is what I get out of it - this means putting it in to driving condition - certainly our 25-30/50-70K market justifes that for all but the absolute basket cases (perhaps even there a wise restoration could lead to a break even position - and yes, I realize that break even is a loss from a time value of money/opportunity cost perspective - but how much have you made from your c1/c2 corvette? camaro? chevelle? torino? etc.??)

And to complete the circle, the more cars that are put on the road, the bigger the clubs get, the more we get to George's soapbox of building the brand and incenting people to rebuild, restore and upgrade - but please NOT TOO MUCH...or peons like me are out of the race - thanks for listening - stephen

I paid fair market price for my Pantera 10 years ago, the car had sat for 15 or so years. Car started right up and ran good. It has been an endless chore fixing little things that show up each year. All a result of sitting for so long. Since then I have located two cars in my area that have not been on the road for years. One has a new motor and the body was done by R.M. and never assembled. Neither one are for sale nor are they on the road. You hear so many stories you wonder how many are being driven. I know mine is it's sitting outside my office window right now.
On a different subject the people who use the B.B. and are not members should join up and help support it. You don,t mind getting help and information from the B.B. why not not donate?
Richard T.

A lot of the cars sitting don't necessarily get parted out or fall back to dust. Wrecked cars and cars very rusted and rough often get parted but I think if you look over time there is something else going on too.

Many Many people have a car which can no longer be driven in dry storage. They believe one day they will get to it or they simply cannot part with their memories. One day this car eventually changes hands due to death or common sense.

These cars are originals. People are no throwing away the original automobile in any form. Their desire and value means one by one as these cars surface they are discovered and restored. Some say it's not worth restoring but sure it is. If they weren't we wouldn't be here. The will never make the Pantera's like they did, they will never make 69 Ford 429 Mustangs again, they will never make 57 Chevys again.

It's amazing how many poeple have a car in long term storage waiting for the day they can do something with it(even though they never will). One by one they surface.

quote:

The will never make the Pantera's like they did, they will never make 69 Ford 429 Mustangs again,

You will never see another car even close to the Pantera. It is illegal. In fact todays cars couldn't even pass some of the regs the Pantera had to. It had to be able to sustain a 5 mph front end crash with NO damage. No car made today is capable of that. Pantera would not be able to pass the europeon pedestrian safety test because it sits too low. The emmisions test would be a piece of cake, no problem. But there is a reason cars are getting heavy. All that madated airbags and stuff. If someone tried to make a Pantera it would look more like an AUDI R8, weigh 4000 pounds and look silly as hell. And yeah, would have to sell for $150,000.

Not so much even that DeTom,

Cars were born around 1900 from horse and buggy on a single cyl engine. We figured out how to make 4 cyl model T and a usable machine. We went into the 30's with sedans and what we think of more now as cars. As the we became an industrialized world we built more advanced cars that got better, cooler, faster, etc. In the 70's we stopped getting better. Cars turned into what I call a cell phone or a gadget. You buy them configured for the current regulation or the current fad. When your done you pitch them. The cars before were the originals! not only were the first but their existence places us in a time of industrial awakening we will never see again.

It is an era we have been blessed to go through that my kids will never see (except through avenues such as museums and old cars).

When I see a car come out all blinged out I think "Floor 1, house wares, Floor 2 ligeree, Floor 3 Jewelry and fancy rims for generic cars. Modern car craft has turned to little more then fashion.

When an old car set to the side comes along like a Pantera, people don't haul it off and part it out unless it is truly very bad.

Pantera is an original icon that can't be replaced even in poor condition.

For me the number one reason for owning a Pantera is to drive it. All the other issues take a back seat. Since I am not looking to buy antother onright now, those 2000 cars that are missing are nothing I wil loose sleep over. Those cars will eventually find there way to market and be repalced with other car that are currently being driven that fall into neglect for one reason or another.

It is a mistake to think of the car as an investment you can make money on. If you can break even on the car after having it for 10 years for exaple the "retun" you get is fun from driving it. Assume for the moment you bought one new in 74 for 12k and put it in a "bag" in the corner of your garage for 30 years. What would that bring today? The tires would be rotted along with half the hoses, the paint would leave a little to be desired and the interor would be a little musty. Not to mention all the inherent issues with the car would still need to be fixed. $25k?? 30K?? The return on your money would be 6 to 8% per year. If you drove it and kept it current for those 30 years would you have spent another 25K on it ? And then maybe today realized 40,000 if you sold it. Clearly not an investment.

Pantera is a drivers car first and formost. Those people that think holding on to it and realizing a pot of gold one day by selling it are sadly mistaken.

AS far as I am conceerned driving the car is where the value is. If you don't drive it, your missing the boat.

I agree with the "you have to drive it" crowd. My car has been in the shop for almost the whole three months I have owned it, and I have spent $5000 just getting it roadworthy because the previous owner let it sit in storage for almost five years.

The resale value might be higher than the $40K I have into it, maybe not...I don't care. When I drive it I grin non-stop, and when I drive past a car full of kids and they get excited and wave I feel like a million bucks...for only forty grand!

Strippers seem to like it too, but that makes me feel a little cheap. :-)

R.