Pantera #4829 - Chassis has Group 4 lightening holes

Dear Friends, a few years ago I bought my first Pantera. It was in a realy bad condition and complete disassembled. The former owner sold a lot of parts of it and I bought it without a transmission and without brakes axcles etc. Nobody from the Pantera specialists want to buy the car, because they said it is not original ! It have a strange chassis and strange metal parts on it. So they do not buy it! But I bought it, because I liked it and loved the design.

As I started the restoration I bought a fuel tank and some other parts. But the fuel tank was strange: It should have one on the right side, but the standart one is on the left side. Also I bought new metal Hall flares , but they do not fit, so I started to try to find out what happend to my car. The Vin is 4829 but they could be any other vin also, because the metal is rewelded and you can not exactly read the vin numbers on the chassis.

So I tried to find some italien people, who can help me in this case. Raphaele , a former De Tomaso worker, had all the documents and told me, that my car was was built in spring 1972 and sold to autoitalyimport in 1973 as a white car with 10 inch campies on the back. OK - but no information , why I have this filler neck hole on the right side and some other points wich appear verry strange. I have metal flares on the car but they are verry flat . My sidewals are different to other panteras , because I cut one flare and try to mount the hall metall gr4 flares and they do not fit in any position!

So I asked arround and get an e-mail from a former english De Tomaso reseller and he told me , that there were 2 or 3 cars , wich were built like my car. It was the Pantera+ intern at De Tomaso Factory and even my car could be the prototype for the Gr4 Cars! So I take a screw driver and scratch on my cars chassis and figure out that my cars first color was RED ! there is no filler or something on the car. Only RED PAINT as the first color on the car! But the Invoce for italy import state: white and black inside !

I have a Serie 1 dashboard , and leather seats , the big brake master cylinder , 4V heads and the webers from 1971 in my pantera puzzle. Also the chassis is diffrent. There are some more metal parts welded to the chassis to make it stronger and there are a lot of holes and some rewelded areas.

So we contact De Tomaso himself and an other old De Tomaso worker and they told me on the phone, that my car is the prototype from the gr4 cars and later it was rebuilt for the Pantera Plus project. I should pay some money and they will try to find all documents for my car. It was a sum arround 5k ! To much for a few papers, I tought.

The car got metal flares in 1973 and was sold with the 10 inch wheels. Also they mounted an aluminum rear spoiler and it should be a little nice version of the GT4 because there were no 345/35/15 tires for the street to buy and De Tomaso / or Autoitaly as their distributor want a clean nice looking car, without the fiberglass flares.

I am quite happy with the story of my car but have no documents or any papers Frowner . Are there any other persons, who know more ? Is there an other way- where I do not need to spend so much money for some documents ? Who knows more about the Pantera Plus ? Thanks a lot, sorry for my bad English.

Peter

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Original Post
$5K sounds a lot for papers, but if it is what you think it is then you could add far more than the $5K in value to the car with papers.

'Register DeTomaso' on Facebook says he has ALL the factory records and is selling them, but of course you need to know for sure what VIN# your car is.
quote:
Originally posted by Simon:
What is the Pantera Plus program???
Simon


good question.

the first group 4 is chassis number 2263. It was a December 1971 chassis. The last is 2874, a march 1972 chassis.

4829 is a December 1972 chassis, unless it is an earlier chassis that has been renumbered. A car with a later chassis could not have been the prototype for the group 4 cars which were built with earlier chassis. The story is difficult to believe, and would require "good" documentation including documentation it was renumbered.
I like Kristian's idea to check the headlight buckets for the chassis number stamped into them. Sometimes doors also have chassis numbers stamped in them. Sometimes special cars, like proto types, have the VIN etched into the window glass too.

If the VIN has been altered, the original can be discovered by somebody skilled in that area, assuming the original sheet metal exists below the welded-in replacement VIN.

I suspect the high price for the documents was asked because acquiring them may require travelling to Switzerland. You should email Schaub and ask what his price would be for the documents.

I would advise contacting the seller asking €5K for the documents, and ask for an exact list of what documents they shall provide in exchange for the money. Perhaps some photo graphs of the documents as well. This is not out of line considering the asking price. If the documents resolve all questions, and clarify the car's history, then I agree with Julian they may be worth acquiring. But you may get a response that neither a list nor photographs are possible because the documents are not "in-hand".

And what in the world was the Pantera Plus Project? Does anyone know? Chuck? William E?
I think this is an interesting investigation, and hope that this line of investigation results in a satisfactory conclusion.

Perhaps the Pantera Plus program was BASED on the Group 4 cars? Maybe taking all the lessons learned, and applying it to a later vehicle, specifically for an individual customer? Or perhaps for a later generation of Pantera race cars?

Some evidence suggests that DeTomaso DID NOT reserialize cars if they were early cars that were sold later - I am specifically referring to dvil’s 1025 Pantera, a pushbutton car apparently sold from the factory in ~’74.

Good luck, Peter!

Keep us posted!

Rocky
assuming there is documentation proving Peter's Pantera is an earlier chassis that was renumbered 4829, this answers one question but creates a second question; what happened to the Pantera that was originally numbered 4829?
Reaper - but why think that?

Doesn’t it make more sense to think 4829 is the real VIN... and it was produced after the Group 4 cars?

Just trying to be realistic.....


I could be wrong, and I very well may be, but nobody has heard of a Pantera Plus program before this.....

Wouldn’t it make more sense that a Group 4 replica could’ve been created at the factory and a year or two after the original, documented Group 4 production cars? Based on the limited pictures I’ve seen it probably is a real factory car

Occam’s Razor says the simplest solution tends to be the right one. When presented with competing hypotheses to solve a problem, one should select the solution with the fewest assumptions.

“When you hear hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras... “
quote:
Originally posted by Rocky:
Reaper - but why think that?

Doesn’t it make more sense to think 4829 is the real VIN... and it was produced after the Group 4 cars?“


If the front valence has pods for built-in turn signals, like a Pantera L, then I'll lean towards your explanation. If the front valence doesn't have built-in pods, then it may be an earlier chassis with an alternative number. Would GT4Peter be willing to provide a picture of the front valence panel?
See , yes it was sold as standart white car. No GTS . I can post any picture. I do not want more from my car, only want to know the truth. I hoped to find more about the car.
When there was something like a prototype for the gr4 or even for gt5 , why should this car follow standart pattern?
Why was it red?
Why is on the invoice bianco?
Why is the filler neck on the right side?
Why is the chassis like it is?
There are a lot of questions, wich are open.
Why is it built in 1972 and the first time on the street in 1976 ?
Why it was not sold earlier ?
I think there is something strange with it.
I do want something special. I am happy with my pantera in any case. Hey I have a gps speedometer in it and it makes 0- 60 mph in 3.8 secounds.
Thanks to all my helping hands at this point!
I just want to clear open questions, because I feel like sherlock holmes in the last 2 years.
Thanks
Peter
Sold to autoitaly yes ! And at the end of 1973 or the beginning 1974. I have my documents not here. It was sold to DeTomasos Distributor !
The Cars first time on the street was in Germany 1976 ! I have the original German documents.
At this time , Panteras were good to sale. Why should they store my Pantera ?
This would be stored money for a company.
This makes no sense.
Why do you not like to follow this storry ?
Jeasus only speak the truth and was nailed on the cross 2018 years ago.
Nobody like his storry and the killed him.
2018 years later, we should have learned from the mistake we did in the past.
So please follow the truth in this case.
On the phone last time you said , that there is the real prototype somewhere and you want to buy it. What makes you sure that the other car is the " real car " . Some numbers wich fit better ? In those days its not verry hard to identify the date from a color / paint and I will invest some money, to find out more, if it makes sense.
So please follow this storry in a open minded way.
Thanks
Peter
please forgive my ignorance, GTS usual feature is clock in dash, but all the blanked out holes would be a racer, almost impossible to do once the car is assembled.
comments?
by the way Peter.

What are the numbers stamped into the headlight buckets?

How about that picture of the front valence panel?

These things would provide information about your car. Sharing these things would help to validate your sincerity.
I hope the first picture isn't offered to support the existence of a Pantera Plus program. That would be very weak indeed. I couldn't read the text, and I'm not familiar with the magazine article.

According to Jan Norbye the second picture was taken in 1978 at De Tomaso's UK importer. The P7 tires date this picture to have been taken no earlier than 1978. I don't know what it is supposed to prove.

At this point I am in agreement with the guy holding the sickle. Show me a picture of the numbers stamped into the headlight buckets, and a picture of the front valence ... or loose my support.
Thanks a lot for your words!
The problem is :
The car was hardly chrashed in the front.
I bought used headlight buckets from Barbara. / Maybery ? From Ebay.
The hole front was damaged and I built a new front.
As I bought the pantera puzzle , there where no brakes , and no suspension on the car.
Only the chrome stronger steering , the bigger brake maincylinder, the leather dashboard , the leather seats, the 10 inch Campangnolo wheels. The zf was also not includet and I bought one from Patric Hals, wich was a bad idea, because it was hardly damaged. But this is an other story .
I allready tried to find the former owners from the car, but non of them are on facebook or in a telephone list.
I guess , when the first owner of the car is still alive he should know how the car looks back in the days.
The last onwner was a hotel manager near to Austria but located in Germany. He told me , that he bought that car in damaged condition about 15 years ago/as he bought it the restauration was allready started and he did some work also but his skills as a hotel manager where so bad so he stopped to do something. As the years go by , his bussines with the hotel was running bad , he sold some parts from the car.
He was not verry friendly to me after he sold the car, but he said that he bought the car with the steel fender flares on it. He only weld some " dirt mats? " on it, because he bought 17 inch wheels and at this time he need the wheel 80% covered by the fender flares for getting the German Tüv .
Later I cut those ugly parts he had done and only left the nice looking steel fender flares on the car.

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