Pantera #6699 - 3000 mile all original(?) Pantera on Ebay

Other items which are "not original" on this car...

• Engine compartment stripped of undercoating and painted flat black (should be body color)
  
• DeTomaso logo valve stem caps on wheels
  
• ZF appears to have been hand-polished (poorly)
  
• Straps that secure the AC hoses are riveted and possibly incorrect
  
• Half-shafts appear to be Spicers
  
• Snorkel appears to be missing from air cleaner
  
• Original aluminum DeTomaso plates missing from valve covers (like the one mounted on the rear cross member)
  
• Undercoating sprayed all over the underside of the car, including the A-arms and coolant tubes (could have been dealer applied)
  
• Gates Green-Sripe hose & double clamps (desirable, just not stock) Don't know about the one covered with undercoating though.

Ok, that's all that jumps out at me. Any others?

One thing I noticed on this one versus my 74 L model.
My rear bumper sat out a lot further due to the bumper bar shockers.
Mine now sit in close like that one now that I have 'fixed ' it !!
A car that old and original I thought woud have been more detoriated ?? ie all old vinyl and leather and rubber.

He advertises the interior as having black leather. He should know it's vinyl.
Will

I don't think this car is completely original.

I don't think the engine compartment is original and the undercoating underneath isn't either.

I think the radio deleate plate is a reproduction.

At this point the Arrivas are only good for parking the car with.

It also has a billet shiftknob. I can't get a good look at the window stricker, but it appears to be a reproduction as well.


John

quote:

Straps that secure the AC hoses are riveted and possibly incorrect

Snorkel appears to be missing from air cleaner

Original aluminum DeTomaso plates missing from valve covers (like the one mounted on the rear cross member)

I have a '74. I bought it with low miles in 1990. It had a known and documented history provided to me.

1) AC straps on that car are accurate. Routed and riveted just like mine. Pain in the neck to service. I am finally changing the lines to go through the wheel well. I will MIG up the rivet holes.
2) The snorkel is there in the same way mine was. It faces forward toward the bulkhead on the right side. There is an air heater hose that goes down to the frame from the bottom of the snorkel. I see the clamp for the hose on the bottom of the snorkel. This is correct.
3) '74s did not come with DeTomaso plates on the original rocker covers like the early cars did. Thats why there is a market for the DeTomaso cast rocker covers !!!
4) Undercoating should have been in the engine bay covering the original body colour paint. Under car undercoating appears to be accurate.
5) Rear bumper has collapsed shocks. Due to age, the oil would leak out and do this ...
6) Don't know why a 3000 mile car would have a worn out shift knob that needed to be replaced with a billet one ??? Can't see a clear picture of the shift gate so as to look at the fingures (But, replacement gates are easy to come by)
7) It has the accurate single long under car water tube that can only be replaced with engine removal (or cut).
8) My original cross-member engine bay brace did not look like that one.
9) On my car, the engine emissions and tune up data plate (orange) is in the engine bay just beside the riveted one. In the service manual it is refered as being there. I see it on the engine (left rocker cover) on this one.
10) My car had the Detomaso plate on the lower rear cross member like this car.
11) Brake fluid is hydroscopic and will cause master cylinder failure in time (seals, barrel) especially on a low mileage car. A replaced brake MC is not out of line. Same goes with the rubber water tubes. They get brittle and crack - replacing those is not out of line either. Just minimum maintenace in my view. In the same vain, I wouldn't expect the spark plugs to be original.

I have seen a bone stock go at auction for $78K. This one is very very close.

Finally, I have said it before and I will repeat it here:

I NEVER EVER trust mileage quoted on a DeTomaso Pantera unless claimed and substantiated by the original owner. It takes all but a few minutes to disconnect the speedo cable. Speedometers are EASY to replace on the Pantera. Replacement Speedometers with 0 to low miles are easy to come-by. Hey, I have my original speedo with 12,000 miles in storage while I drive around with another one. And Finally, DeTomaso, in a Service Buletin, explains how to take off the bezel and turn back the odometer !!!

So... as far as this car goes ...

Honestly, just based on the photos and aside from a few minor issues (I would like to have a really close look at the engine bay to be satisfied why the colour difference) - I feel from the photos that it is a very very close to original '74. I have seen many cars represented as factory original that are far from it.

B.G.

Maybe I am weird, but who would want an original Pantera?

Clearly I don't understand cars with Prancing Horses or even 'Vettes with matching numbers. But the only person who would want an original Pantera is someone who wants to put it in storage and watch it deteriorate - some more.

Without improving and then driving these fantastic beasts - and I mean driving them hard - what's the point of ownership?

Right-On David !!!

I would rather drive the car every minute I can rather than letting it sit as a trophy piece.

That being said - I wish MC good fortune in his Ponce-de-Leon quest.

B.G.

As much as most like to mod Panteras - they may be the first 'resto mod' ever - I'm glad someone is promoting originality as being worth something to the world. It's just a great baseline, whether 'good' or 'bad' is less the issue than accurate at build time. Means something.

My one-owner 74 definitely had the same cross brace, same zip tie looking thing, same finish (semi gloss) on it vs. the engine bay in sort of a rough finish flat black. My original valve covers had no deTomaso plate but an emissions 'pink' decal, left side. One thing missing (mine vs the subject car) is an "OK" in yellow on the right head. Mine had "31" under that as if #31 was the station of the "OK".

All else looks pretty strong on the car, though maybe slightly over detailed in the engine compartment. The ZF amateur polish will revert to gray soon enough!

I hope he gets every dime of his reserve. Long live deTomaso!

quote:

Maybe I am weird, but who would want an original Pantera?

I guess I’m in the weird group with you David.

Not to ignite this old debate, but there certainly are differences between the interests and thought patterns of “collectors” vs. performance enthusiasts. I suppose the show car guys would be a whole other group to consider. There are so many variants.

I have had (for 24 years now) a mid year Vette roadster that was a basket case when I got it. Most would have relegated it to a parts car. It was never going to be a Bloomington Gold concourse car. I was straight out of college and more time than money (and probably sense). Today it’s a very nice driver, and has a very original appearance but the corvette purests would rip it apart. Special HP 327, 4:11 pos, 4-speed. –Nice driving small block car. The three years of swap meets exposed me to "originality" guys who seemed more interested in the hardware minutia, grease pen marks, etc than whether or not they could enjoy driving their cars. -Never really understood it.

I also have my doubts about how verifiable originality details really are on Panteras. It was low volume production with lots of running changes and dealer service bulletins.

I honestly mean no offense to the collectors in the group, but if your staring into the engine compartment of five speed, mid-engine sports car, with a V8, do you even notice it has a tie wrap on the wheel house brace?

My Pantera was a very original car, 15k miles or so, purchased from 2nd owner. Basically just had intake on up updated with aftermarket stuff (except air cleaner?), GTS headers/exhaust, 10” Campys, and older black re-spray. When I bought the car, I literally got a box with every part that had ever been taken off the car, right down to spark plugs, belts, old hoses etc. Based upon memory and that box of parts, I’d say the car is very original with some of the minor noted exceptions. FWIW, my car was finished with very light undercoat, very similarly to the subject car of this post and had (flat) black engine compartment. When I refinished the engine compartment, I saw no signs whatsoever of body paint. My car was a burgundy and black GTS.

You can probably surmise from this post and my gallery photos over in that section of the forum which group I lean toward. I don’t mind a little bling, but it’s gotta-go too.

Whatever your interests, there seems to be a lot of enjoyment available from Panteras.

Kelly

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:

quote:

Maybe I am weird, but who would want an original Pantera?

I guess I’m in the weird group with you David.

Today it’s a very nice driver, and has a very original appearance. The three years of swap meets exposed me to "originality" guys who seemed more interested in the hardware minutia, grease pen marks, etc than whether or not they could enjoy driving their cars. -Never really understood it.

Those are the historians, preservationists, artifact researchers for buildings, art, sculpture, baseball cards, our cars and every thing else imaginable. They're weird too, but...

quote:

I also have my doubts about how verifiable originality details really are on Panteras. It was low volume production with lots of running changes and dealer service bulletins.

That's why the historians exist. Debating over details seems like so much pedantia to some, but a passion for others. I got a 4-pound package of genealogical research yesterday from a man I never met - a history professor in Georgia - researching every factoid about our respective families. To him, the height of importance. To me, an interesting aside. My feelings will probably change later.

quote:

Based upon memory and that box of parts, I’d say the car is very original with some of the minor noted exceptions.
Kelly

It's the "memory" and "I'd say" part that is your comfortable position on the car yet would drive the preservationist to his/her quest, possibly mad on the way.

Yes, different strokes. Though I'm not insanely "pro" preservation on MY car (I've got electronic ignition, better fans, rotary AC, Mical's headers, etc) I greatly APPRECIATE and RESPECT that there are those who would value DeTomaso's work as something to preserve as an "original" so the rest of us would know what that means.