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Pantera Gr 3 #THPNLK01172

zondazondaMember
Hello,
I would like to show the attached pictures of a Pantera available for sale in Europe, [serial # in the title]. Asking price is around 120.000 USD.
I'd like to get more information on her, (if any is available), and most of all whether she is a USA version or a European version. Is the engine number enough to determine which type of engine it is ?
Thanks for your answers.

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push1267push1267Member
quote:
Is there a way to check the S/N, for example a stamp on the chassis


the chassis number is on the pedelbox, in the front trunk. Since it's an early car, you should also find the last 3 digits og of the chassis number stamped on many parts, including the front crossmember, doors, decklid, hood, enginecover, side gills and other places as well.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
FWIW, there exists a GR-3 Registration run from Sweden by Anders Hellberg. On his site he maintains a history of all known Gr-3s; there are 26 'factory-built' Gr-3s and 11 cars later converted to Gr-3 specs by the factory. Pantera #1172 is not on any known list. But there are many more Panteras on both sides of the Atlantic running around with a few or most of the Gr-3 parts on them. (www.scuderiadetomaso.se). My street '72L has quite a few that I added myself, and I know of several similar almost-Gr-3 cars. Gary Hall used to have some parts in stock in CA.

Defining the Gr-3 is a bit tricky because in Europe, the DeTomaso factory would sell you all the parts needed to legally race in FIA events. There was no factory stamp or designation defining a Gr-3, like there is for a GR-4 or GT-4. You could add the parts needed to your street Pantera yourself or have DeTomaso mount them on your car, or you could buy a GR-3 direct from DeTomaso in Italy. The FIA Homologation papers clearly state what is legal for GR-3, followed by a note that said 'all other modifications beyond this list moves the car into Gr-4' but obviously the GR-4s' extensively lightened chassis, relocated a-arm pickup points on the subframes and other integral mods would not be available on such conversion cars.

The 1972 Factory Supplemental Parts List for GTS, Gr-3 and GR-4 shows the parts available, with factory part numbers: 10" x 15" Campy rear wheels, single and double-adjustable Koni shocks, bolt-together roll cages, racing brakes etc.

On cages, note that the factory-offered 6 or sometimes 8-point bolt-together cage from 1972 was constructed of 0.062" wall mild steel tubing and may not be legal to race in your area any more. In the U.S for instance, a legal SCCA-approved and inspected roll cage (with official sticker) must be of 0.090"-wall (or more) mild steel tubing. I know of one real DeTomaso-supplied roll cage for one of the real GR-4s that was replaced with a heavier-wall clone to legally race the car here.

All this 45-year-old history is quite confusing and when pro racing is involved, its even more so. Good luck-
panteradougpanteradougMember
I wondering the significance of a factory built race car right now unless 1) you collect these things and need one for your collection or 2) you need a documented one to run in historic races?

Anyone can build one now that is far superior to any of the original cars if you just want that level of performance and are willing to accept the short comings of driving a legal race car on the street.

In other words, why bother?
ducatistaducatistaMember
When in 1986 came time to send #4654 to the factory, my father was advised of all the upgrades possible to change the original brakes to the Brembo calipers and discs with Gr 3 specs. A modification at the time that would set you back 8 million liras (4000 USD at the time). Koni shocks and race sway bars/ roll bar were available as well. Engine had already been done by Ismo Sabattini and could seriously perform - almost too much for road use in today's traffic. I just wish I still had it and could share the mechanical modifications done, the most recent new owner had it redone again the year before the factory closed. I think at any point the Gr3 mods were successful enough to be recommended for the cars going in for restoration at the factory to allow track use in sanctioned racing. In Italy at the time was especially popular to use them for "gare in salita" hillclimb.

quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
I wondering the significance of a factory built race car right now unless 1) you collect these things and need one for your collection or 2) you need a documented one to run in historic races?

Anyone can build one now that is far superior to any of the original cars if you just want that level of performance and are willing to accept the short comings of driving a legal race car on the street.

In other words, why bother?
goodrocgoodrocMember
quote:
Originally posted by Bosswrench:
FWIW, there exists a GR-3 Registration run from Sweden by Anders Hellberg. On his site he maintains a history of all known Gr-3s; there are 26 'factory-built' Gr-3s and 11 cars later converted to Gr-3 specs by the factory. Pantera #1172 is not on any known list. But there are many more Panteras on both sides of the Atlantic running around with a few or most of the Gr-3 parts on them. (www.scuderiadetomaso.se). My street '72L has quite a few that I added myself, and I know of several similar almost-Gr-3 cars. Gary Hall used to have some parts in stock in CA.

Defining the Gr-3 is a bit tricky because in Europe, the DeTomaso factory would sell you all the parts needed to legally race in FIA events. There was no factory stamp or designation defining a Gr-3, like there is for a GR-4 or GT-4. You could add the parts needed to your street Pantera yourself or have DeTomaso mount them on your car, or you could buy a GR-3 direct from DeTomaso in Italy. The FIA Homologation papers clearly state what is legal for GR-3, followed by a note that said 'all other modifications beyond this list moves the car into Gr-4' but obviously the GR-4s' extensively lightened chassis, relocated a-arm pickup points on the subframes and other integral mods would not be available on such conversion cars.

The 1972 Factory Supplemental Parts List for GTS, Gr-3 and GR-4 shows the parts available, with factory part numbers: 10" x 15" Campy rear wheels, single and double-adjustable Koni shocks, bolt-together roll cages, racing brakes etc.

On cages, note that the factory-offered 6 or sometimes 8-point bolt-together cage from 1972 was constructed of 0.062" wall mild steel tubing and may not be legal to race in your area any more. In the U.S for instance, a legal SCCA-approved and inspected roll cage (with official sticker) must be of 0.090"-wall (or more) mild steel tubing. I know of one real DeTomaso-supplied roll cage for one of the real GR-4s that was replaced with a heavier-wall clone to legally race the car here.

All this 45-year-old history is quite confusing and when pro racing is involved, its even more so. Good luck-



Here is a snapshot of the original factory paperwork from when my car (#6174) was manufactured. Apparently they tagged the paperwork with Gr.3 but nowhere on the car is it indicated (apart from special parts used that matches the typical Gr.3 specs)

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bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
You should contact Anders in Sweden and see if that's good enough to get your car on his List. I'm sure he'll be thrilled to find another one- especially an early number. Most- like Anders' personal Gr-3, are '72-'74-builds. Note- as far as we know, ALL Euro narrow-body Panteras ever sold were designated 'GTS' by the factory.
ducatistaducatistaMember
Sorry to disagree but the European GTS was the real deal in terms of what "Gran Turismo Sportivo" is intended to indicate - not a badge (it was not so for the US model). Had two growing up '72 and '83, they were upgraded in performance, custom parts could be added to your heart's (and pocket's) content. In the "terra dei motori (Modena)" you had a plenty to choose from aftermarket upgrades if you wished to do the work outside of the factory. After '74 it was essentially a bespoke build.

quote:
Originally posted by M.Welter:
"GTS" was just a label. It was the cheapest way to launch a new model in a tough market.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Since the narrow-body Euro cars (called 'GTS' 1972 thru at least 1987) could be optioned up from DeTomaso's 'Gr-3 Catalogues' for home installation or purchased direct from the factory with all, most or some of the available upgrades, a full load of those add-ons made such machines 'GTS/Gr-3' and acceptable for that class of FIA competition. Pretty rare too- only 25 verified factory-built GTS/Gr-3s are known and 11 more were upgraded at the factory after sale; more than half are '73s. Of course, many more home-built partial examples were constructed over the years.

Go to (anders.hellburg@ScuderiaDeTomaso.se) for more authoritative info on this interesting Pantera varient.

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