Possible club/list/forum 351C dyno project?

Dan, I am sure folks didn't see this post so I am bumping it up to top of list for you. I for one would be interested in comparisons of stock head types. I wouldn't even mind seeing a "Boss" 351 build to answer once andfor all, if it really did have more power than advertised or if it was just an urban legend. Stuff like that.

Thanks DeTom! I posted this over on the DeTomaso email list and with your
offer, we now have 17 people who have offered up cash and/or parts. We've
already got a pretty extensive list of intake manifolds lined up. I've been
loaned a set of Webers and an Autolite Inline set-up, plus the following list
of intakes:

2V Intakes

Offenhauser Dual Port 351C-2V (6012-DP or is it 6111-DP)
- dual port design (runners split into top and bottom sections, plenum
split fore and aft, primaries feed longer path lower runners, secondaries
feed shorter path upper runners), spread bore bolt pattern

Weiand X-Celerator 351V-2V (7516)
- low rise single plane with Holley carb bolt pattern, no EGR
- ports are larger than head ports.

3V Intakes

Scott Parker CHI 3V dual plane

4V Intakes

Blue Thunder 351C-4V (p/n 4145)
- high rise dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern

Edelbrock F-351 4V
- low rise dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- obsolete part number, replaced by Performer 351 4V
- runner ports are smaller than intake ports for increased velocity

Edelbrock Torker 351 (P/N 2760)
- high rise single plane with Holley carb bolt pattern

Ford 351C intake (p/n D1ZX-9425-DA)
- low rise dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern and squarebore
throttle plate bores
- iron casting, fitted to early 4V engines fited with 4300 carbs

Ford 351C 4V intake (p/n )
- low rise dual plane for Motorcraft 4300D (Holley bolt pattern
but spreadbore throttle plate bores
- iron casting, as fitted to CJ/4V engines

Holley Strip Dominator 351C-4V (300-13)
- high rise air gap open plenum single plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- One unique feature is that the plenum opening is trapezoidal and
will directly mount a stock Motorcraft 4300D spreadbore carb.

Offenhauser Dual Port 351C-4V (6014-DP)
- dual port design (runners split into top and bottom sections, plenum
split fore and aft, primaries feed longer path lower runners, secondaries
feed shorter path upper runners), spread bore bolt pattern
- ported (ex-Marino Perna)

Offenhauser 360 Equa-Flow 351C-4V (5964)
- low rise single plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- short runner design with split plenum (side-to-side), plenum divider
cut down and/or windowed

Weiand Hi-Ram 351C-4V (p/n 1996)
- tunnel ram for dual Holleys

High Port Intakes (9.2" deck)
M-9424-A331 (Edelbrock for A3 heads)
M-9424-A331 (Roush for C302 heads)
M-9424-B351 (Roush for C302 heads, short track)
M-9424-D351 (Edelbrock for C302 heads)

Time to contact my dyno guy and see what he thinks of the plan.

Dan Jones

I am interested in assisting. I just recently rebuilt my engine and stroked it to 393. I will be in St. Louis October 11 (I am driving from Chicago). I would like to see your shop Dan and I could drop of some parts if you like.

Anson

> I am interested in assisting. I just recently rebuilt my engine and stroked it
> to 393. I will be in St. Louis October 11 (I am driving from Chicago). I would
> like to see your shop Dan and I could drop of some parts if you like.
> Anson

Thanks Anson! I'll send you a private message with contact info and
directions to my place.

Dan Jones

Anson,

I just sent you a personal message via the forum with my contact info. Look forward to meeting you.

Dan

Dan,
The Kansas contingent (Me) will throw some cash in the till toward this project. Your help on my engine rebuild several years ago was "right on" & most appreciated! Just let us know how to get it to you.

Bob

Thanks Bob! We're up near 20 people invested and some cool parts. Waiting
to hear back from my dyno guy before I green light the project. When he's
on board, I'll let everyone know where to send the funds and parts.

Dan Jones

Dan, I have that A341 "torker" small port cheater.
The ports are the size of a 302 and the plenum floor has got to be filled around an inch.

I'm pretty sure that it was made to be custom ported and not run this way. Do you think it is worthwhile to run in on you dyno?

Since I'm running the Webers on my A3 heads I can lend this out to you be run if you say that I'll get it back. I don't know if it even worth running unported though. What do you think?

I sold my shelby script 4v intake. I'd like to see what they do on the dyno.

It was my understand that it is what Blue thunder copied.

I always liked the Torker over it on the street.
Maybe it makes more power under the curve then the Torker but it never had that high rpm spike that the Torker did.

I could never make it run like it should. I used it mostly for cosmetics to match the valve covers and the air cleaner.

> Dan, I have that A341 "torker" small port cheater. The ports are the size
> of a 302 and the plenum floor has got to be filled around an inch.
> I'm pretty sure that it was made to be custom ported and not run this way.
> Do you think it is worthwhile to run in on you dyno?

Yes. I've got the large port version of that intake so we could do a
comparison run on A3's. It could also be run on C302's and compared
against the Roush A331.

> Since I'm running the Webers on my A3 heads I can lend this out to you be
> run if you say that I'll get it back. I don't know if it even worth running
> unported though. What do you think?

All borrowed parts will be returned, except for consumables like gaskets
or bearings.

> I sold my shelby script 4v intake. I'd like to see what they do on the dyno.
> It was my understand that it is what Blue thunder copied.

I may have a line on one of those. I've been offered a Bud Moore Maxiplenum
and a high port Weber intake too.

> I always liked the Torker over it on the street.

The Torker was a bunch better than the unported Blue Thunder on that street
408C we dyno'd previously. The Blue Thunder responded well to porting on
the flow bench but we never got a chance to test it on the dyno. We paln to
test it this time around.

> Maybe it makes more power under the curve then the Torker but it never had
> that high rpm spike that the Torker did.

Pro Stock Paul at PSE used to sell a modified Torker with plenum divider that
claims made it work much better at lower RPM. Might be worth a try to test
that as well.

Dan Jones

Keep me posted as to a schedule for testing when you devise one. I don't want the manifold laying there forever waiting to be tested.

I could get sick and tired of the Webers at anytime and might want to go back to the Holley and this manifold would be the one.

> Keep me posted as to a schedule for testing when you devise one. I don't want
> the manifold laying there forever waiting to be tested.

Will do. We're planning on early winter so it's still afew months off.

> I could get sick and tired of the Webers at anytime and might want to go back
> to the Holley and this manifold would be the one.

Speaking of Webers, we have a Weber set-up for the test but I have no
experience with them. Do you have a baseline on the tuning parts that
would get us started? We'll have a wideband to guide us during tuning.

BTW, I've been promised a Shelby intake and a D1ZX-FA Ford single plane.

Thanks,
Dan Jones

Webers? Did you say Webers? Sure...

For a Cleveland, idle fuel jets should be .70. I have run them down to .66mm by redrilling out .60's but it doesn't really lean out the idle much. The idle screws do.

Depending of the air quality of the day you can lean them down to around 5/8 of a turn from the seat but I wouldn't advise it.

Set them at a pencil line under 3/4 of a turn.

The idle air jet is in the "holder". There is only one of them for the IDA series so you can't change them. You can redrill them to enlarge the air jet but when IDA's are too lean at idle, the exhaust pops. More like it detonates so make sure you have forged pistons if you want to find the optimum idle combination.

The take no prisoners set up for the main circuit should be 1.40fuel/F5 emulsion/1.60air. These are heavy but give you that nice rusty brown plug color under power.

They also throw quite a plume behind the car but they do make power.

Leave the emulsion tubes alone and just play with the jets if you must. There is very little to be gained by messing with the tube.

The important thing to remember is you need to keep the proportion of the fuel and the air corrector the same. No fancy calculations, just straight 9th grade algerbra direct proportions.

The size of the fuel jet is what effects the a/f the greatest. DONT go over 140 fuel mains.

A street car can easily cruise around with 130 fuel. I've run as low as a 125 but it tends to act like an rpm limiter topping out at about 5000rpm.

A sane person would run a 135 main on the street. I don't think the dyno will vary much but I suppose you will find that out soon enough.

When you go to a Windsor type head the proportion of a/f changes as it does the FE.

If memory serves me I think a 289 is a 155/215 ratio with an F5 emulsion tube. Maybe that's a 125? Oh boy it's getting blury.
All of these engines will run on an F7 too but it is the VW's that like those the most.

I don't know what effect a 408 cleveland would have on jets. I suspect the a/f ratio wouldn't change, just the largest size of the main fuel jets would.

I think the 427's were running 170 fuel mains. I don't know what the air corrector for them is.

There seems to be a relationship between the size of the main fuel jet and the cubic inches.

The IDA also has changable auxilliary venturies.
Stock out of the box they are supplied with 37mm. I am running 40.5mm custom machined out of aluminum tubing.

The GT40's ran 42mm. You can get them as large as 45mm. Changing the size moves the torque range up or down the rpm scale.

I have run 42mm on the street. Power with them is smooth and the rpm's seemingly endles but it does flatten the engine very much under 3000 rpm.

All of these variables are what makes one Webercrazy.

I'll bet you a nickel that the largest variable factor you find is the air quality. If you test on two consecutive days and go from 90 degrees and 70% humidity, and then to 65 degrees and 30% humidity, wow baby will the numbers change.

Of course in your testing if you find that I am from another planet (others have already found me out so don't worry) I am more then willing to use your tuning descoveries. I'm stubborn but not stupid. Webers probably should be tuned on a dyno anyway.

It would be great to have a dyno in the basement!

It only took me 2 years to get this info out of you ...... LOL LOL LOL


Ron

All,

I took a cut at putting together a list of contributors and what
they've pledged. If you don't see your name here and it should be,
let me know. I've had a lot of email traffic on this, so I'd be
surprised if I haven't missed someone. For now it's just a list
of what has been pledged, along with the individual's name. As it
becomes available, I'll add more detail to the descriptions and add
columns for things like whether the part has been received.

Thanks,
Dan Jones

Monentary Donations:
Gary Bartley
John Bentley
Björn Carlsson
Kelly Coffield
Bill Gaino
Mike Grillot
Anson Johnson (AJThree)
Dan Jones
Will Kooiman
Mark McWhinney
Dan Mixon
Bob Radenfield
Art Stephens
Team Pantera Racing

Unspecified (money or parts?)
Steve Hawkins
Rich Hoppe

Multiple or unspecified parts
Kelly Coffield
John Bentley

Web hosting/blogging Asa Jay Laughton
Free advertising in Pantera International magazine George Pence

351C short block 0.030" over with TRW L2379F forged pistons, Dan Jones
stock rods, Mellings oil pump, 351C style pick-up

351C short block 0.030" over with TRW L2379F forged pistons, Dan Jones
polished and peen rods, Mellings oil pump, double roller timing
chain, 351M/400 style pick-up

Completely stock 1974 351C-4V, open chamber heads, spread bore Dan Jones
intake, Motorcraft 4300D, Pantera standard exhaust, 15K miles

Completely stock 351C-4V Kelly Coffield

Fontana aluminum block stroker, 407 cubes, C302B heads, Dan Jones
Crane hydraulic roller cam

2V Intakes

Offenhauser Dual Port 351C-2V (6012-DP or is it 6111-DP) Dan Jones
- dual port design (runners split into top and bottom sections,
plenum split fore and aft, primaries feed longer path lower
runners, secondaries feed shorter path upper runners), spread
bore bolt pattern

Weiand X-Celerator 351V-2V (7516) Dan Jones
- low rise single plane with Holley carb bolt pattern, no EGR
- ports are larger than head ports.

Terry Parker Funnelweb 2V Sigbjørn Eskeland (Norway)
- high rise single plane

3V Intakes

Scott Cook CHI 3V Phil (in London)
- low rise dual plane with 3V port size

CHI 3V single plane Dave McLain
- high rise single plane with 3V port size
- 4150 flange

4V Intakes

Autolite Inline Kelly Coffield
- Dual in-line 4 barrel set-up

Blue Thunder 351C-4V (p/n 4145) Dan Jones
- high rise dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern

Bud Moore Maxi Plenum Kelly Coffield
- plenum style intake with removable top
- will be testing 4150 top
- essentially a tunnel ram designed to fit under low
hood lines

Edelbrock F-351 4V Dan Jones
- low rise dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- obsolete part number, replaced by Performer 351 4V
- ports smaller than intake ports for increased velocity

Edelbrock Performer LB 4V Dan Jones
- low rise dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- obsolete part number, replaced F-351 4V
- ports smaller than intake ports for increased velocity

Edelbrock Performer LB 4V Chuck Melton
- low rise dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- obsolete part number, replaced F-351 4V
- ports smaller than intake ports for increased velocity

Edelbrock Torker 351 (P/N 2760) Dan Jones
- high rise single plane with Holley carb bolt pattern

Edelbrock Torker 351 (P/N 2760) Chuck Melton
- high rise single plane with Holley carb bolt pattern

Ford 351C intake (p/n D1ZX-9425-DA) Dan Jones
- low rise dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern and
squarebore throttle plate bores
- iron casting, fitted to early 4V engines with 4300 carbs

Ford 351C 4V intake (p/n ) Dan Jones
- low rise dual plane for Motorcraft 4300D (Holley bolt pattern
but spreadbore throttle plate bores
- iron casting, as fitted to CJ/4V engines

Ford 351C intake (p/n D1ZX-9425-FA) Chad Decatur
- medium rise, open plenum, single plane with either Holley/AFB
squarebore pattern or Dominator carb pattern
- aluminum casting, available over-the-counter
- Rare but looks similar to a Weiand Xcelerator 4V
- Buddy Bar casting

Hall 4V Weber Larry in Cleveland
- IDA pattern Weber intake manifold (with carbs)

Holley Strip Dominator 351C-4V (300-13) Dan Jones
- high rise air gap open plenum single plane with Holley carb
bolt pattern
- One unique feature is that the plenum opening is trapezoidal,
will directly mount a stock Motorcraft 4300D spreadbore carb

Offenhauser Dual Port 351C-4V (6014-DP) Dan Jones
- dual port design (runners split into top and bottom sections,
plenum split fore and aft, primaries feed longer path lower
runners, secondaries feed shorter path upper runners), spread
bore bolt pattern
- ported (ex-Marino Perna)

Offenhauser 360 Equa-Flow 351C-4V (5964) Dan Jones
- low rise single plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- short runner design with split plenum (side-to-side),
plenum divider cut down and/or windowed

Shelby 4V (p/n 351D-9424-D) Chad Decatur
- dual plane high rise
- CS Shelby Racetrack logo

Weiand Hi-Ram 351C-4V (p/n 1996) Dan Jones
- tunnel ram for dual Holleys

High Port Intakes (9.2" deck)

M-9424-A331 (Edelbrock for A3 heads) Dan Jones
M-9424-A331 (Edelbrock for C302 heads) PanteraDoug
M-9424-A331 (Roush for C302 heads) Dan Jones
Edelbrock Victor AH-II Dan Jones
M-9424-B351 (Roush for C302 heads, short track) Dan Jones
M-9424-D351 (Edelbrock for C302 heads) Dan Jones
Coffield Weber (C302B heads) Kelly Coffield
Coffield EFI (C302B heads) Dan Jones

Cylinder Heads
351M/400 2V iron Dan Jones
U.S. open chamber 2V iron Dan Jones
Australian closed chamber 2V iron Kelly Coffield
Australian closed chamber 2V iron Dan Jones
U.S. open chamber 4V iron Dan Jones
U.S. closed chamber 4V iron Dan Jones
Boss 351 closed chamber 4V iron Larry in Cleveland
U.S. closed chamber 4V iron with high port exhaust plates Dan Jones
M-6049-A3 aluminum high port aluminum Dan Jones
M-6049-C aluminum high port aluminum Dan Jones
M-6049-C302 aluminum high port aluminum Dan Jones
M-6049-C302B aluminum high port aluminum Dan Jones

Headers
180 degree 4V Pantera headers Larry in Cleveland
4-into-1 Mindtrain 4V Pantera headers Dan Mixon
4-into-1 Hall big bore 4V Pantera headers Dan Jones
4-into-1 high port Pantera headers Dan Jones
Tubular Automotive 4V swap headers ('65-'66 Mustang) Dan Jones
Unspecified Pantera exhaust Chuck Melton
Circle track high port headers (upper bolt holes elongated Dan Jones
to fit both early and late bolt patterns, stepped tubes
with bolt-on 3 1/2" collectors, 3 1/2" diameter extensions

Edelbrock aluminum water pump Dan Jones
Weiand aluminum 351C pump, p/n 8209 Dan Jones
Ford Motorsport M-6065-A351 head bolt kit for SVO high port Dan Jones
aluminum heads, 1/2" diameter, bolts are 1" longer than
production 351C to install SVO high port aluminum heads.
Ford Motorsport M-6513-D221 valve springs (for 351 SVO
canted valve heads), dual with damper, requires nylon valve
stem seal M-6571-221, installed height is 1.9", 0.735" ID,
1.545" OD, 130 lbs closed @ 1.9", 450 lbs open @ 1.2"

Comp 282S and/or Comp294S cam and lifters Will Kooiman
Crane Gold aluminum roller rockers 1.73:1 ratio Dan Jones
Comp stainless roller rockers 1/2 set 1.6:1 ratio Dan Jones
Ford Motorsport aluminum valve covers (tall) Dan Jones
Boss 351C aluminum valve covers Dan Jones
Ford Motorsport balancer (bolt-in weight,neutral or 28.2 oz-in) Dan Jones
Ford Boss/HO/CJ oil pan Dan Jones
Aviad Pantera gated and baffled road race oil pan Dan Jones
Holley 735 CFM carb, vacuum secondaries, quick change kit on Dan Jones
jets and secondary spring
Holley 750 CFM carb, vacuum secondaries Dan Jones
Mallory Unilite mechanical advance distributor Dan Jones
Mallory Unilite vacuum advance distributor Dan Jones
Solid lifter camshafts Dan Jones
Air cleaners, Duraspark ignitions Chuck Melton

I think this is about 10 years of work?

I think you are missing an Edelbrock Scorpion? Sorry, I don't have one to offer...but, how about a torker de-ported for the A3 heads? Got on if you want it.

> I think this is about 10 years of work?

Yes. So far the available parts are far outstripping the $$$ available for
dyno time. I'm going to have work up a plan to make best use of the dyno
time.

> I think you are missing an Edelbrock Scorpion? Sorry, I don't have one to
> offer...but, how about a torker de-ported for the A3 heads? Got on if you
> want it.

No one has offered up a Scorpion. I do have an Edelbrock A331 Torker with
A3 ports. I think an A3/A331 versus 4V/Torker comparison will be interesting.

Dan Jones

Dan, I think you didn't understand what I meant.

I have an Edelbrock Torker, that has been deported with epoxy aluminum very similar to the A341 Motorsport intake.

If I did my job correctly it should be the same as the A341. At the risk of answering my own question, I would presume there isn't too much point with a limited budget to test it as well?

> If I did my job correctly it should be the same as the A341. At the risk of
> answering my own question, I would presume there isn't too much point with a
> limited budget to test it as well?

Yes. We've got a lot of tests to cover. My first hack at test plan is
probably twice as many days as I originally expected.

Dan Jones

Hello Dan Jones,

I saw your web page and http://realbig.com/pipermail/detomaso/2003-June/028198.html
and found it to be most impressive.

I’m hoping you would like to chat about what I am working on. I have a Holley 4010 750 cfm carb that has humongous PVCR’s. I’m using #69 (~.070 orifice) main jets in the primary, #75 (~.070 orifice) in the secondary, and all PVCR’s are an astounding 0.098 inch in diameter!

I started digging into this because I noticed that it would go massively rich at WOT and sometimes foul the plugs and shut down with a heavy load! Also, I’ve always been very sensitive to fuel economy and want the performance too. Believe it or not, forgetting the parking brake and driving off down the road will result in fouled plugs. Also, it sometimes shuts down at high RPM due to a complete lack of fuel in the bowls.

I have this carb on a 454 Chevy in a 1974 El Camino (original engine). It has a reworked bottom end and modified cylinder heads with the 2.19/1.88 valves. The throttle response is good and it gets 15 mpg of the freeway.

Please let me know if you would like to chat with me about this.


Warm Regards,
Brian Patterson
Portland, OR, USA

My car just came back from the tuner, so I thought I'd toss in this data point. The 351C is largely unknown (owned car 2 months), heads were supposedly redone at some point, recent compression test is OK. Edelbrock performer intake and Hall headers, 670 CFM 4150, jets 68/64 (secondaries smaller). Ford elec. ign, Taylor wires.

Rear-wheel dyno'ed at 265 hp. The tuner said the next "step up" would be a set of Edelbrock heads.

Dan
#3989

> I have a Holley 4010 750 cfm carb that has humongous PVCR's. I'm using #69
> (~.070 orifice) main jets in the primary, #75 (~.070 orifice) in the
> secondary, and all PVCR's are an astounding 0.098 inch in diameter!

I've not played with the 4010 but it sounds like you need to re-size the
PVCR's as noted in the referenced post.

> I started digging into this because I noticed that it would go massively
> rich at WOT and sometimes foul the plugs and shut down with a heavy load!

First make sure you have a strong spark and reasonable plug gaps. Use one
of those spark testers that looks like a clear spark plug with a grounding
clamp.

> I've always been very sensitive to fuel economy and want the performance too.

It's not just fuel economy but running rich will prematurely wear the
cylinder walls and carbon up the chambers.

> Also, it sometimes shuts down at high RPM due to a complete lack of fuel in
> the bowls.

That may be a separate fuel pump or regulator issue but get the mixture right
and work from there. If you don't already have one, consider a wide band O2
sensor to help with tuning.

> Please let me know if you would like to chat with me about this.

There are about 10 people in the queue ahead of you that I need to take care
of first.

> My car just came back from the tuner, so I thought I'd toss in this data
> point. The 351C is largely unknown (owned car 2 months), heads were
> supposedly redone at some point, recent compression test is OK. Edelbrock
> performer intake and Hall headers, 670 CFM 4150, jets 68/64 (secondaries
> smaller). Ford elec. ign, Taylor wires.
>
> Rear-wheel dyno'ed at 265 hp. The tuner said the next "step up" would be a
> set of Edelbrock heads.

Do you currently have open or closed chamber 2V or 4V heads?

Dan Jones