Production History Questions for Phillippe

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(8) How many Group 3 Panteras were built during the Ford years (chassis 2661 through 7380)? Do you have a list of numbers?

(9) How many Group 3 Panteras were built after the Ford years (chassis 7381 through 7554)? Do you have a list of numbers?

Georges, in the registerdetomaso.com, you can review all factory GR3, first car start at 1070 and finish at 9123.
It s 36 cars knew as GR3 by the factory, now how do the factory accept the car as a proper GR3 is that the car was built, sold to be raced with a ROLL CAGE, this is the first thing that we look when the book was done at the factory. The car should be also describe inside the builtsheet as a GR3 with all the racing specs, engine, brakes, etc
Will look in the number that you show me and will post document
Now during the construction of the book, it was related to the archives of the factory as I open myself all the files and YES, I miss some cars as the files was not in their place, files that I discover later and correct it in the register on internet.
Now you are going to ask me, who then decide who was a GR3 or not in 2005. The answer is me but the back up of Santiago.
When a files was GREY, I always refer to Santiago and ask him to decide, then in return, he ask my opinion and my opinion was always the same
If the car was built by the factory with a roll cage, raced directly with all the racing specs, it was a GR3.

Now, some people bought normal Pantera and race them with success and car was modified by them, then it s not a factory GR3

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7554 exist, such as 7555 or 7556?

No files for theses numbers, of course, they are so many documents that it s difficult to answer the question

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(chassis 2014 through 7380)?

Big files on 2014, own by the factory,built early 1972, modified by the factory end of 1972, sold Italy 1973
7380, 7381, no files

Philippe, Thanks for the answer on these. That is why it is important to keep as a whole.
Again thanks

Denis, here invoice for 1005/1006/1008/1010 and customs imports papers with chassis number on all papers. Theses documents was found yesterday in a box that we save from destruction.
Keep it as a whole, great idea but who going to fund the museum ?

I understand that theses documents are very valuable as history piece or for the owner of the car, but it s always a problem of who paying the cost of running this archive.
People have no idea that I bought out of garbage 30 big boxes full of papers and i need to read one piece by one piece as nobody else have the knownledge to understand their historical value.
It s huge work, really huge and I believe that all this should go to a museum, but same question, who paying ?
Everybody want a museum, but how many will pay ? It s a factory duty normally.
Anyway, they are in better position now as they are classified, save, protected

Pantera International already maintains a large archive of club documents going all the way back to 1973. Debbie and I have put that archive into better condition, and stored it in a better facilities, than it had ever been in the past. We could archive the factory documents as well. I believe we could do a faithful job; and stewardship of the documents would be passed on with the stewardship of the club itself. The money for additional storage would be added to the club budget; which is funded by banner ad sponsorship and supplemented from our pockets.

We would share the information with De Tomaso owners at no cost, the only fees we would charge would be to cover mailing supplies and postal fees. A large document exceeding the size of our scanning equipment may incur a reproduction fee if we had to out source its reproduction. We already have the scanning equipment, and we maintain a small packaging center in our office for the De Tomaso store.

The problem is we can not afford to pay a large sum of money to acquire the documents, a little bit yes, but not a large sum.

Georges, I understand that the factory should have done it, or a club, but we found all theses in a box. And just discover yesterday,
I did contact the owner of the brand, and explain to them the importance of the heritage, they agree but still no money.
A other point is when you share a document with a owner at no cost (document that you have bought ) the owner will upgrade the price of his car as perfectly documented, then the owner take advantage of your help.
Fair ? I dont think so.
And I agree with you, you did a fantastic job with your club but what happen when a new member will take control of it ?
Did he will share the same enthousiasm ?
The best solution in my opinion is that documents will be best with owners

Philippe, I suggest you give Kevin Marti a call. Ask for his opinion as he has gone thru this same challenge. No museum.
kevin@martiauto.com. http://www.martiauto.com/

Dear Dennis, I dont have a challenge, we are sharing differents opinions here but have no problem at all.
I understand every body point of view.
In a perfect world, it should be factory duty to take care of this, but if you have the adress of this perfect world, please show me..lol

Here 1014 archives, I have all the prototypes archives from Pantera 001/2/3/ etc
They should go with the owner, it s my opinion and then share it on internet to save them forever

When you sell the originals are you keeping a record of the information before they go out the door? Any plans to compile and aggregate that data?

It will be close to impossible to reassemble the information once it gets distributed worldwide.

I don't mind your price ... for the original documents, that is. If someone wants the original paper that the information was written on back in 1971 - that should be expensive. It's the sort of thing that is usually locked away in a museum.

I think that sharing the data from the original documents with owners of the cars - just the data, not the original document, should be a lower cost option.

Did we find out if 1384 was a pushbutton? (I can't interpret what was shown).

Do you have anything for car 1418 (mine)? I know it was bronze (now black) and that it was built in April of 1971.

(BTW - I bought a copy of your book and it's supposed to show up here today or tomorrow.)

Do you have info for 6656 (my car) if so... let me know. If the price is right I would buy mine and upload a copy to the website. As we know other people would not take the time and of course the info would be lost. So you found the info in the warehouse... I will be there April of 2019.

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Originally posted by Olczyk:

... A other point is when you share a document with a owner at no cost (document that you have bought ) the owner will upgrade the price of his car as perfectly documented, then the owner take advantage of your help.
Fair ? I dont think so ...

We disagree, Debbie and I perceive that as being perfectly fair ... if fairness has anything to do with it. Debbie and I do not operate as private individuals to make a profit. We are officers of a California Non-Profit Corporation that operates in the best interests of De Tomaso owners and enthusiasts. We would be happy for an owner who has been helped by the documents. And happy that in some way our efforts are having a positive impact in the lives of De Tomaso owners.

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Originally posted by Olczyk:

... but what happen when a new member will take control of it ?
Did he will share the same enthousiasm ...

Yes, because that shall be a requirement in the selection process. Persons without the passion should not be in our positions. There is no financial reward. It is rewarding and enjoyable as something to do in retirement.

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Originally posted by Olczyk:

... The best solution in my opinion is that documents will be best with owners ...

With each original document you sell the history of the marque, as captured in these documents, is slowly being lost. A novel cannot be read if half of the pages are missing.

10 years from now you'll be remembered as the person who sold-off the archive.

I think that all these discussions are vain, Philippe only wants to make buziness that's all, the rest, the interest of the passionates of the brand, the preservation of the historical heritage, etc .... does not interest him and to promote his buziness he is currently promoting the idea that the possession of the original documents provide a HUGE over-worth to all the cars and soon he will try to persuade everyone that it is normal to own the documents and that their non-possession devalues strongly the car, it is very clever of him.

This is only my opinion.

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Originally posted by Joe 1974 L #6656:
Do you have info for 6656 (my car) if so... let me know. If the price is right I would buy mine and upload a copy to the website. As we know other people would not take the time and of course the info would be lost. So you found the info in the warehouse... I will be there April of 2019.

Joe i made the enquiry as well via his website. I was quoted $500 EURO , but to this day i still do not know what i will get for my $500 Euro dollars.

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Originally posted by René #4406:
I think that all these discussions are vain, Philippe only wants to make buziness that's all, the rest, the interest of the passionates of the brand, the preservation of the historical heritage, etc .... does not interest him and to promote his buziness he is currently promoting the idea that the possession of the original documents provide a HUGE over-worth to all the cars and soon he will try to persuade everyone that it is normal to own the documents and that their non-possession devalues strongly the car, it is very clever of him.

This is only my opinion.

Dear Rene, with all the brands, it s the same, for all the items, it s the same.
If you own a Rolex , it s 5000 $, if you own the Rolex of Steve Mcqueen, it s 500 000 $.
I dont write the rules of this world.
I did the de Tomaso book with the archives
I did classicscars.com for internet to expose the archives, I believe that I have done more than most of you concerning the heritage.
To save the archives, I did bought them with Vito. Now we disagree about what to do with it, but who put his money on the table to buy them ?
I bought boxes of thousand of papers who was ready to be threw away, what did I find inside ? the complet history of the brand.
Did you known that a member from this community had bought for 750 euro the files for his car but in the same time, try to buy from Silverstro in Modena blank papers to fill them himself ?
Georges known his name and I respect Georges not to disclose his name here.
I never delivery the paid papers to this man and pay him back early this week, because the protection of the heritage have more value.
All blank papers will be burn and will post the photo of the man from Modena who live there understand that we are talking about his town, the people who work there and the idea that a american collector making his own invoices made him very angry.
Then Rene, you are wrong, I m not here only to make buziness, it s your opinion based on wrong facts.
You have no idea what I have found inside the boxs, no idea at all.
We are working 2 people now for more than 2 month and we are at 1/2 way.
So in order to emit a fair and correct opinion, one would have to know all the facts and all its ramifications.
It is easy to say that I am this or that, but it would be much more difficult to come and see what I have achieved and the time spent.

Do you know what it costs to go to Modena? by car, in a truck?

I am still surprised by the reception of collectors who for the most part are very happy that we answer their message.

There will always be disgrace, it's life that wants it, it's not me

With all my respect, factory close more than 10 years ago...
Who fly there to get the archives and protect them ? Nobody, for 10 years, I was sleeping on my racing archives and forget them, and nobody try to get them and save them.

Rene explains to me that I should do like this or that, and it's just a business. I look at the facts and actions of each, Georges and Debbie have all my respect for what they have accomplished, who can say the same? Not a lot of people

I never advised you to do this or something else.

I never denied the work you did and it cost you a little money.

I've never blamed you for wanting to do buziness

I notice that you refuse George's offer to give you some money to buy you and manage the archives you own, you prefer to sell them to each owner to earn more. It's your right, you say it yourself, the world is like that

I only say that to promote your buziness you deliberately exaggerate the importance of the original documents for an ORDINARY car, not for one that has a very particular story or belonged to a celebrity, example that you always take.

In the end it's all about money and time. We too have (access to) "saved" a lot of documents from the factory as well, including a complete set af blueprints of the Pantera - maybe 500+ drawings that was the drawings that was kept at Vignale.

As much as we would like to share them with the community, it's complicated by the fact, that it would cost us quite a substaintial amount of money to have it all scanned.

Many of the drawings are huge 1:1 size - 1.5 m wide to 6-7 meters long. So they require professional equipment and that cost money.

Personally I would not see any disadvantages to participate modestly in the cost of scanning technical documents to save them, if they are then made available to the owners of De Tomaso.

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Originally posted by Push1267:
In the end it's all about money and time. We too have (access to) "saved" a lot of documents from the factory as well, including a complete set af blueprints of the Pantera - maybe 500+ drawings that was the drawings that was kept at Vignale.

As much as we would like to share them with the community, it's complicated by the fact, that it would cost us quite a substaintial amount of money to have it all scanned.

Many of the drawings are huge 1:1 size - 1.5 m wide to 6-7 meters long. So they require professional equipment and that cost money.

Exactly, it cost time (money ) professionnal equipment (money ) . We all face the same problem, If you buy somethings for 1 $, you cannot sell it for 50 cents and if you spend time, at the end, it cost not 1 $ but 1,50 $

More work

More

Thousands of invoice to read one by one

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Originally posted by Push1267:
In the end it's all about money and time. We too have (access to) "saved" a lot of documents from the factory as well, including a complete set af blueprints of the Pantera - maybe 500+ drawings that was the drawings that was kept at Vignale.

As much as we would like to share them with the community, it's complicated by the fact, that it would cost us quite a substaintial amount of money to have it all scanned.

Many of the drawings are huge 1:1 size - 1.5 m wide to 6-7 meters long. So they require professional equipment and that cost money.

Exemple, car 1267, I found original title from Sweden 1984 , copy of original title from Italy 1983, but with this title, we can do the research with Italian administration and GET all the previous papers and history with owners etc, ++++ the fact that 1267 was a factory own car !
Only theses infos cost me 30 minutes of my time !

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++++ the fact that 1267 was a factory own car

We need to talk ... :-)

I would be interested to hear how much having the drawings scanned would cost

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Originally posted by Push1267:
In the end it's all about money and time. We too have (access to) "saved" a lot of documents from the factory as well, including a complete set af blueprints of the Pantera - maybe 500+ drawings that was the drawings that was kept at Vignale.

As much as we would like to share them with the community, it's complicated by the fact, that it would cost us quite a substaintial amount of money to have it all scanned.

Many of the drawings are huge 1:1 size - 1.5 m wide to 6-7 meters long. So they require professional equipment and that cost money.

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Originally posted by Push1267:
Many of the drawings are huge 1:1 size - 1.5 m wide to 6-7 meters long. So they require professional equipment and that cost money.

Hang them on a wall and take photos from a distance with a high resolution DSLR camera with a telephoto lens.

I wish you were closer, I’d do it for you.

A while ago I was told that the Archive was held by Marcel Shwaub in Switzerland. I contacted him regarding some history of my Euro GTS 3840.

he said he had 16 pages of factory history for my car, the first owner the name of the dealership that sold my car to the first owner in Turin, and some warranty history, all on DeTomaso paperwork.

his price for this was Euros 400. I paid and received the information which I found a little sad for the archive was now going to individual owners who would pay, instead of being kept together. The market rules sadly.

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Originally posted by Peter Fenlon:
A while ago I was told that the Archive was held by Marcel Shwaub in Switzerland. I contacted him regarding some history of my Euro GTS 3840.

he said he had 16 pages of factory history for my car, the first owner the name of the dealership that sold my car to the first owner in Turin, and some warranty history, all on DeTomaso paperwork.

his price for this was Euros 400. I paid and received the information which I found a little sad for the archive was now going to individual owners who would pay, instead of being kept together. The market rules sadly.

Then, why you bought them ?

Phillippe, I am communicating with a fellow that calls him self Vito De Tomaso or at least that is his email. He never signs of with his name in any email so I am actually not sure. Anyway I am struggling a bit as it almost seems like he is trying to make a sale of some documents he claims to have on #6174 more than necessary difficult. All I was asking for was if he could lay out the documents and photos he claims to have on a table and take a snap shot of it and email me. It appears to be too much work for him as he claims he is too busy. I find it weird if he wants to sell something he should be able to take 5 minutes to do that? It really is a shame when I am interested to see what he has and not just take his word for it. If you know this person perhaps you can assist and help him to understand that it is only fair what I ask for and should be part of "business as usual" if he wants to sell documents to owners of DeTomaso´s? Don´t you agree? I hope you can help to guide this guy if you know him.

best regards
Jan

Send me email to olczyk@yahoo.com please
I m travelling but will be back in 3 days.

I also had contacts with VITO, I made the same request to see the documents that he sells me, but still no photos ...... are this a scam ?????
Fernando

Same story with Vito... whats his involvement ?

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Originally posted by wrinkle effect:
I also had contacts with VITO, I made the same request to see the documents that he sells me, but still no photos ...... are this a scam ?????
Fernando

Wow, can you give me your chassis number please ?
Talking about scam because he don’t reply to you is very strange, may be he is busy or he need to answer within the 30 secondes ?

We exchanged a lot of mail with Vito, he responds very quickly to announce the price, but after that it's less well .....
it was agreed to show me the documents he had on my cars but still no photos despite my reminders, I want to pay but I want to see what I buy for 800 euros .... The numbers of Pantera are on my signature

Fernando, Vito Vous as déjà répondu, mais il répond aux premiers, il va vous répondre cette semaine , je vais l appeler