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Early prototype Cleveland pictures. Outside of the main stud girdle, do you notice anything peculiar?
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No oil filter place?
Lots of differently oriented motor mount holes, extra block drain outlets on one side, different shape of the outside of the block around the core holes too.
Working from memory.
Working from memory.
Fuel Pump mounting point is on the wrong side.
I might be off base here but it looks like its aluminum.
How about two-bolt mains?
I've been misleading you guys.
First, the block looks shiny because its painted gold, like an Oldsmobile V8.
That is in fact the block of a generation II Oldsmobile Rocket V8.
Manufactured from 1964 to 1990.
2 passage lubrication system
Integral timing case
Vertical fuel pump mounting bolts.
Engines came in many displacements, the smaller engines utilized a 9.3" deck height, the larger engines used a 10.6" deck height. The same relationship as the the 351C and 400.
The Cleveland engine program had its beginnings in the second half of 1966. In 1967 they did real world race testing in the Can-am series and the World Endurance Racing series with experimental 351 engines. They were 351XE blocks, that were completely based on the Fairlane/Windsor V8. But in 1968 the familiar Cleveland block with its integral timing case showed up. So the question is, why did they drop the Fairlane V8 based motor for an all new design?
Bunkie Knudsen took the helm of Ford in Feb 1968, and brought a lot of his closest people from GM with him. I haven't checked the list of people over yet, but at this point I'd bet one of them was an engine guy from Oldsmobile. Seems he had an idea or two to share with the Ford guys.
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First, the block looks shiny because its painted gold, like an Oldsmobile V8.
That is in fact the block of a generation II Oldsmobile Rocket V8.
Manufactured from 1964 to 1990.
2 passage lubrication system
Integral timing case
Vertical fuel pump mounting bolts.
Engines came in many displacements, the smaller engines utilized a 9.3" deck height, the larger engines used a 10.6" deck height. The same relationship as the the 351C and 400.
The Cleveland engine program had its beginnings in the second half of 1966. In 1967 they did real world race testing in the Can-am series and the World Endurance Racing series with experimental 351 engines. They were 351XE blocks, that were completely based on the Fairlane/Windsor V8. But in 1968 the familiar Cleveland block with its integral timing case showed up. So the question is, why did they drop the Fairlane V8 based motor for an all new design?
Bunkie Knudsen took the helm of Ford in Feb 1968, and brought a lot of his closest people from GM with him. I haven't checked the list of people over yet, but at this point I'd bet one of them was an engine guy from Oldsmobile. Seems he had an idea or two to share with the Ford guys.
-G
George .... where do you get this stuff??? You're like an encyclopedia of engine development history.
quote:Originally posted by UFO-LOW:
... where do you get this stuff ...
When I fell in love with the Pantera in 1971 I also became a 351C enthusiast. I'm not well rounded however, when it comes to other motors I'm not informed like I am about the 351C. I do invest deliberate time researching the history behind the motor. I'll learn a tidbit of information that will send me off on a hunt for additional information. Or when I become aware of a gap in my understanding I'll begin a quest to fill in the gap. There's 3 gaps at the moment I'm working on, when time permits. The information is not easy to come by, sometimes it takes years to answer a question.
In my library I have some S.A.E. documents from the period, internal documents from Ford, a lot of old magazine articles, a few old books about Ford racing, all the parts books that Ford published, all the repair manuals from the era, specialized technical and training documents published by Ford. I also use the internet a lot, especially to run down historical leads, but information on the internet, like information found in magazine articles, has to be taken with a grain of salt.
I know a few people who are much bigger 351C fanatics than I am, but they prefer to feed me information and remain behind the scene. One friend is a collector of experimental and pre-production parts, he has several experimental engineering log-books salvaged from Ford, he also has old engine build documents salvaged from Bud Moore Engineering.
To understand all the information in its proper context also requires understanding the social, political, financial and corporate history of the times; even information about the personal lives of some of the key players is helpful.
The pictures of the Olds V8 came from Hot Rod Magazine's web site. They have an editor there who postulates the Cleveland is nothing more than an Oldsmobile short block with BBC heads, conceived by Bunkie Knudsen. That doesn't fit in with the historical evidence, the Cleveland project was initiated more than a year before Bunkie Knudsen arrived at Ford. But there may be an idea or two that was suggested by the folks from GM.
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George, When it comes to clevelands, your right up there with Dan Jones in my book.