Sale prices high, 3 cars leaving the country!

Hi Sharkey,
I too have just purchased a Pantera and I am shipping it back to the UK mainly because of the shortage in UK and Europe and the high values they are achieving over here and remember of the 7000 odd cars made more than 5500 went to the States, I recently went to see a very ordinary car for £30000 ($45000) I refused to buy such an poor car but it sold within a week for the very near the full asking price, good news for current owners but lets hope they don't become toys for rich boys.

sharkey contact me if you are looking for anymore cars. i have 4233 for sale have pictures on provamo.com sonny

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but maybe someone can help me understand how prices can be going so high when there are nice cars out there like this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...922147#ht_500wt_1022
That don't seem to sell?
I have seen 3 or 4 panteras in the mid to low 40's that look real nice that never seem to move.
Sharkey, I am glad to see you got some strong money for your cars. All the better as I have 2 that are going up for sale soon but I am just not "feeling the love" where it comes to getting the big bucks.

Demand is high in Europe and the dollar is low vs. the euro.

Thishappened 20 years ago when muscle cars weere going to Japan.

The americans laugh at the price and the europeans pounce on them.

The Euro is only at $1.30 which is not that great.
Things don't usually become attractive to the europeans until the market hits $1.45 or better.
Denmark, Norway and Sweden seem to be doing better than the rest of Europe

Hi Stelios101,
Whereabouts in the UK are you? I have just started my search to buy a Pantera and ship it back to Cardiff. Any advice and/or pitfalls to avoid, I would be happy to receive a pm. Apologies to my US coleagues, potentially another one leaving, but on the bright side, it will be well looked after. (unless anybody knows of a cheap RHD car????)

quote:

Originally posted by Quickitty:
The Euro is only at $1.30 which is not that great.
Things don't usually become attractive to the europeans until the market hits $1.45 or better.
Denmark, Norway and Sweden seem to be doing better than the rest of Europe

I don't know but the Americans think the prices suck and are too high, and the Europeans are buying them.

Something is going on.

Although the car that's for sale on e-bay for $44000 looks pretty decent it would not be a vehicle I would consider unless it was for sale for around $10000 less mainly because it looks like it does not have many of the upgrades needed for modern day ownership unless originality was the main priority and let's face it guys we may love our Pantera's but they were built to a rather low standard that's why Ford dropped them, I looked for a car that someone had lavished plenty of money on and in the right places. We all know how much not just a Pantera but any car that's 40 odd years old can cost to make reliable let alone an Italian car so for buyers like me who have just purchased a car this car would not even be considered maybe that's why what looks to be a decent car, and that one does, is not achieving a decent price.

We all have opinions on this issue but I'm pretty certain that the Panteras that are worth the MOST money are the ones that have had ZERO drivability upgrades or "improvements".

There are virtually no un-modified, un-molested Panteras out there any more. Excepting a handful of extraordinarily well modified Panteras, the only cars that I personally am aware of having sold for high dollar amounts (I'm excluding the obvious GR4, GR3, GT5-S and SI Panteras) are ones that were truly original cars. The buyers for large high-end collections usually value originality above all else and need to pay a high premium because the selection is non-existent.

As a driver-grade car, upgrades improve reliability and add value to guys like us who intend to actually DRIVE our cars. And guys who DRIVE their cars are usually on a budget. I know I am.

As for this specific Pantera; it LOOKS original, but it's for sale in Michigan, the heart of the rust belt. The photos are too small to be sure, but it looks like overspray on the door-seal gaskets at the sill. The rockers are yellow and should be black, so were they bondo'd-up? Who know without a close inspection. I would guess that the car is NOT as solid and original as it appears in the few small photos shown. The fact that it was repainted in 1974 almost screams it had a major accident (on a snow-covered road?). I think that a clean, rust-free, accident-free Pantera without upgrades is worth at least $44K. I'm just not certain that that is what we are seeing here without a personal inspection.

While I am not a historian (others here can/will correct me if I'm wrong) it is my understanding that Ford didn't discontinue the relationship with De Tomaso because the cars were poorly built, but PRIMARILY because of the mid-70's fuel crisis that essentially killed off many big V8 American muscle cars of the day. It aggravates me when people (Pantera owners especially) perpetuate the myth that the cars were (or are) crap fraught with over-heating and other reliability troubles. Compared to near-equivalent Italian sports cars of the day, the Pantera fared extremely well reliability-wise. Only when compared to an every-day driver did it show some weakness. I think the biggest problem was in the 70's, people expected their Ferraris to break down but not their Fords.

Mark

As for this specific Pantera; it LOOKS original, but it's for sale in Michigan, the heart of the rust belt. The photos are too small to be sure, but it looks like overspray on the door-seal gaskets at the sill. The rockers are yellow and should be black, so were they bondo'd-up? Who know without a close inspection. I would guess that the car is NOT as solid and original as it appears in the few small photos shown. The fact that it was repainted in 1974 almost screams it had a major accident (on a snow-covered road?). [/QUOTE]

After learning a bit more about this specific car, I would agree that it is a fair bit worse than it looks in the pictures. Probably a poor example on my part of what could be bought for fair money.

In regards to Pantera reliability (Mark's subject), the earliest cars (1971 - 1972) did have their problems. The experience of some owners was they were in the shop more often than they were out. Some Lincoln dealers didn't know how to work on them, some did more harm than good, and some had problems acquiring parts. John Buckman would be a good guy to pipe in on this subject.

Ford instituted so many changes to the Pantera L (August 1972) that they called it a series II model! It wasn't until the 1973 models that the radiator baffle was corrected. By July 1973 (the beginning of the 1974 Pantera model year) the Panteras were a different (better) car in terms of reliability. After investing all that time and resources to improve them, Ford would have been crazy to drop the car because it was unreliable! That was not the reason at all. There was an oil embargo in Fall 1973, the sales of sports cars slumped around the world. GM came very close to giving the Corvette the axe on several occasions during the mid and late 1970s! New regulations in the US would have required Ford to invest a good deal of money modifying the Pantera to meet the new regulations ... and the investment could not be justified for a car in which sales had slowed so dramatically. The Pantera was Iacocca's baby, if there was any way he could have financially justified keeping the car around, he would have! The Lincoln dealers loved the Pantera too ... when they were selling! The 1971 - 1973 models did what they were intended to do, they increased foot traffic in Lincoln show rooms. There was also more profit built into the Pantera's price than any other model on the Lincoln dealer's lot (about $3000 in 1970s!). But the Lincoln dealers didn't want an expensive car on the lot that wasn't selling. And some 1974 Panteras sat on the lot for a long time.

-G

Take a look at the photos of the basically stock car that sold for $66K in the "anyone know prices of the Monterey cars" thread.
I suspect a lot of us have our cars underinsured at this point.

Jim Oddie

Because of things like sheet metal replacement (see the looking for right front fender thread), I feel you should insure the car for $100,000.

Have a fender bender, then you will find out why.

Just my opinion.

Not that I am adding anything unknown or anything like that but it seems like what we would call a recent surge in the interest level of our cars has brought in more of the purist crowd as well. Our cars have been primarily ignored by the exotic crowd and the muscle car crowd as well. Now that the "hybrid" nature of these cars is no longer necessarily frowned upon and there is actually some documented racing history around giving them at least some provenance, this interest should continue to rise. To collectors, the point is valid that they usually look for originality above all else. If the car is a floor trophy, then questionable reliability claims and other such issues are irrelevant.
This is a shame, however, in that many of these cars have been very tastefully upgraded and modified but these cars are being thrown in with others having modifications of questionable taste. Not trying to offend anyone but an example might be the false side exhaust installed on the Jackson's Pantera that comes to my mind. I guess what I am saying is to call any upgraded Pantera "molested" is offensive and simply not true. It is also a shame that the true value of these cars is being ignored or held back. I am of the belief that our cars are not only a bargain but a steal!
What are some of the reasons given for the lower resale value?

Unreliable - Better than most Italian cars of the era.
No racing history - Ok show me Lamborghini's racing history. Those cars hold value and are they better built and more reliable?
Poor build quality - See point #1. They were as good as almost any other car made at the time considering they were held to quite a low MSRP.

This could go on and on but the point is most of the arguments for lower values are either untrue or out of context.
Rant off.

quote:

Originally posted by stelios101:
Hi Sharkey,
I too have just purchased a Pantera and I am shipping it back to the UK mainly because of the shortage in UK and Europe and the high values they are achieving over here and remember of the 7000 odd cars made more than 5500 went to the States, I recently went to see a very ordinary car for £30000 ($45000) I refused to buy such an poor car but it sold within a week for the very near the full asking price, good news for current owners but lets hope they don't become toys for rich boys.

Do you mind sharing with us what kind of condition / upgrades the car was in /had and how much you paid for it? Did you buy it through a dealer or from an individual directly?
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by George P:
In regards to Pantera reliability (Mark's subject), the earliest cars (1971 - 1972) did have their problems. The experience of some owners was they were in the shop more often than they were out. Some Lincoln dealers didn't know how to work on them, some did more harm than good, and some had problems acquiring parts. John Buckman would be a good guy to pipe in on this subject.

Ford instituted so many changes to the Pantera L (August 1972) that they called it a series II model! It wasn't until the 1973 models that the radiator baffle was corrected. By July 1973 (the beginning of the 1974 Pantera model year) the Panteras were a different (better) car in terms of reliability. After investing all that time and resources to improve them, Ford would have been crazy to drop the car because it was unreliable! That was not the reason at all. There was an oil embargo in Fall 1973, the sales of sports cars slumped around the world. GM came very close to giving the Corvette the axe on several occasions during the mid and late 1970s! New regulations in the US would have required Ford to invest a good deal of money modifying the Pantera to meet the new regulations ... and the investment could not be justified for a car in which sales had slowed so dramatically. The Pantera was Iacocca's baby, if there was any way he could have financially justified keeping the car around, he would have! The Lincoln dealers loved the Pantera too ... when they were selling! The 1971 - 1973 models did what they were intended to do, they increased foot traffic in Lincoln show rooms. There was also more profit built into the Pantera's price than any other model on the Lincoln dealer's lot (about $3000 in 1970s!). But the Lincoln dealers didn't want an expensive car on the lot that wasn't selling. And some 1974 Panteras sat on the lot for a long time.

-G

Road and Track did an update road test on a 73-74 car and said all the problems had been fixed, but the bad rep from the first tests still prevails. Most people remain ignorant, to the benefit of those who like the cars and are not rich.

quote:

Originally posted by Sharkey:
I've sold four of the Panteras shown in this picture, in as many months. The first sold at Mecum, Kissimmee. It was a red '73 one owner I sold for high 40's to a Dealer. Car needed paint and incidentals. The chrome bumper '72 in the pic, done to show condition including red inner panels & no bucket sold for $56k, then he ordered another 2 grand in additions. It went to France!A month ago I sold my '74 orange 6222 for 58k. It went where else.....guess......drum roll, to a town 70 km North of Modena where it was born! Three weeks ago the [other]'73 L sold, left the Port of Miami for Australia. I have a suspicion that once they leave the country though, they won't be back. As an aside, I just sold a 5DS25/2 for 8 grand and it went, of all places, back to Germany! Unreal. I can't locate a set of side mounting ears for him, they're all dried up. I think Dennis Quella will have a set.

(note: The picture was removed because it was much too wide. It was not opening all the way, so it was not viewable anyway. Please edit the picture to 1024 pixels width and upload it again. Thank you. -G)

So the pre-L in show condition sold for only about $10K more than the L that needed paint?

NADA is currently showing the L's bringing about 5K above the Pre-L's.
Hagerty is showing and 8K spread, L's currently bringing the bigger dollar.
I am not totally convinced about the accuracy of this report, at least not from what I can see. It seems that anytime I advertise an L for sale, people always want the chrome bumper and quench head high horse power car. When I put a Pre-L up for sale, all I hear about is all the advances in the 73-74 being more desirable. The L's might bring a few more $$ in the local sales but, it seems to me that the Europeans tend to like the chrome bumper cars and that affects the sales on the east coast. Personally I like the Chrome bumper cars, they just look cooler.

... un-modified, un-molested Pantera's ARE out there. They are just not for sale .. some day they will bring a premium due to the fact it will be Unmolested. A unique model will add to the sale price. At this present moment I think during the economic environment in the USA, the pound and euro shows 30% - 50% buying power which actually seems to add to a discounted price in the USA. I still dont think its enough to jog the keys from the hands of a collector.

Amen Mark. Agree completely.

ONE slight variation in my opinion - and only that - is that if tasteful, reversible 'reliability' mods (Tires, cooling, window gears, ignition switch, etc) are done, I'd say the value is mostly unaffected.

If the original parts are kept, probably bumps value a bit. Of course, that's up to the buyer/bidder on that day.

I fell in love with Panteras when I first saw them. I grew up in Livonia Michigan. Across from the local ice rink was a parking lot where Ford installed several little items when they were first brought into the country. I would hang onto a chain link fence and look out onto hundreds of them.

I went to work for Ford Customer Service Division late in 1977. I took initial customer complaints over the phone. If a Pantera customer called in the call went to "Priotity Section" were they were given special handling. My brother was in that Office. The biggest issue was with the rust problem because it was a safety issue. Ford bought back several, offered repairs after warranty and many other special considerations. We had 3 cars in the parking lot that were bought back. Holes were cut into the rear fenders so engineers could see the rust. Several of us wanted to buy those cars. Ford shreded them. So I knew the problems with these cars and still wanted one badly.

I had not seen a pantera for 20 years when I saw 2 of them at a specialty car sales place in San Diego. I showed them to my wife and told her it was the car I had always wanted. I had just finished a 1971 Corvette that I had had since 1977. Customized it to death. The corvette guys hated it. The wife said sell the Vette and get a Pantera. 2 Months later I bought a Pantera. I still had the Vette, although I never drove it again and did sell it. Because I knew the Pantera well, I was only interested in a rust free car. Everything else could be fixed. Living in Colorado made it easy. We had Dennis who had saved many of them.

I did not buy the car as an investment. I bought it because I love it. It still puts a smile on my face every time I drive it.

It's difficult to know what direction the cars are going as far as originality vs. desirability IMO.

You could look at the Mangustas and try to determine some indication of direction.

Lack of Concourse judging of the Detomaso cars in general has sheltered them from being categorized such as "correct" or "incorrect", etc.

I don't see that as likely being on the near horizon at all.

There definitely is something going on with European interest in US cars for sure.

Considering that there are some indications of upturns in some portions of the US and the "World" economy, it could simply be that these are small "investors" that are wagering, or maybe hoping is a better term, that Detomaso values will catch fire and they will follow the likes of other brands that pushed into the ten digit values.

There was just an L88 Corvette that sold for over three million at auction within the last two weeks.

I think if values were going to go in that direction, then you would see serious categorization as far as pre L, L, and originality and modified.

It hasn't happened yet but there are ingredients that are sometimes showing here and there that could lead to the car being valued by investment experts that would recommend buying a Pantera and stashing one away for long term investment?

If you buy one for an investment, one isn't going to do it. You will need a flock of them.

Hi Guy's,
I believe most people who buy Pantera's buy because they love the car itself as opposed to buying in the belief they will increase in value that is why I recently made my purchase, that's not to say an increase in value was not attractive, I also believe they will increase for a number of reasons, Mangusta's as well as ALL classic Lambo's and and Ferrari's being the main reasons, low interest rates, ease of maintenance and in genaral a rise in virtually all classic car marques and the fact that no Pantera's are for sale in Europe below $60,000, well no decent one's anyway.
Pantera's have been under valued for far too long and as they increase it will allow the car's that need restoration to become viable projects.
The purist,s have already started buying original cars with some of the better one's reaching very close to the six figure mark. The fact that you guy's in the States still have plenty of reasonably priced vehicles to choose from will probably change in the next few years as many get exported to Europe that's how I've just purchased my one.

Hey Jack!

Take a look at the car in my avatar - photo ..... you used to own it!!!! #2548 is now mine and undergoing restoration. I even still have the "Pantera Miami" car cover.

quote:

Originally posted by UFO-LOW:
Hey Jack!

Take a look at the car in my avatar - photo ..... you used to own it!!!! #2548 is now mine and undergoing restoration. I even still have the "Pantera Miami" car cover.

WOW! How cool is THAT! You know that was one of my favorite cars, and I've owned over 60 of them. Thank goodness it went into good hands! Love to see resto pics posted!Hold on to it, their going up super fast in value. Thanks for the post!

As far as buying beautiful sports cars for their 'investment value', anyone that does this gets just what they deserve IMHO... take that any way you want.

quote:

Road and Track did an update road test on a 73-74 car and said all the problems had been fixed, but the bad rep from the first tests still prevails. Most people remain ignorant, to the benefit of those who like the cars and are not rich.

The bad rep was only in the USA...markets elsewhere got the Detomaso factory prepped Euro spec models that fared much better in road tests. Also, non-USA drivers didn't use them to idle in a Burger King drive thru in Phoenix in the middle of summer.

When compared to a Mustang or a Corvette, it had "issues". When compared to a Countach or Ferrari BB, it was a gem everywhere except in the USA.

WHY?

It begins with an "F"...

LS

quote:

Originally posted by Pantdino:

Most people remain ignorant, to the benefit of those who like the cars and are not rich.

We are our own worst enemy. When at shows, how often do we talk about the supposed problems in the cars. A properly updated and maintained car is extremely reliable and is not that expensive to maintain. We need to say that every time someone asks about problems instead of talking about all the issues as if they still exist. Just my 2 cents.

As to prices, a nice STOCK car sold at Mecum here in Dallas for $79 plus buyers premium in spite of all the negative talk by the Velocity TV announcers.