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Shelby

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accobraaccobraMember
Yes .... over the years there has been a lot of things SHELBY has cracked down on. For some good and some bad. Mostly in my opinion its business ..but a small part I smell greed.

I own an 1988 AC Autocraft " Cobra" as the battle went AC could not put cobra emblems on this car in the USA. Ford and Shelby even tried to stop production and they lost because it was made in the UK. Its a fine made english automobile and a shame it got in the middle of capitalistic values.

Seems the same here ... on Club Cobra I read yes he is pulling his name from the charter. Why dont he just ask for a piece of the pie ?

I have to say I sold my 69 GT500 very cheap back in 2001 and in some ways dont regret the snobish attitude of some of the owners .. not saying all of them .. but some.

Some say SHELBY isnt going to be around long .. whats going to happen to all his hench men when he passes ... they have dropped the hammer on many who are only here for fun and hobby.

Its a sad day for SAAC. I would never buy another SHELBY just for this reason. I would not contribute to an organization with this type of "MISSION STATEMENT".

Ron
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
That is pure corporate BULLSHIT!

Shelby's letter demands things that only exist because SAAC compiled them, not info Shelby provided. Yet Shelby says turn them over.

This is further proof of how $$$$$ corrupts most everything. Next month will see stupid prices by stupid buyers at Barret-Jackson. Our SpeedVision channel became Speed, dropped true racing/airplanes/etc in favor of NASCAR crap and 30 minute "shows" that are nothing but paybacks to their advertisers.

As if Shelby doesn't have enough $$$ already, but somewhere in a back room folks in charge of investments, not gearheads that ever get grease under their nails and ground into their cracked, chafed hands, figured they could "market" the Shelby name to be more financially productive in their start-up operation.

I hope they fall fat on their Wall Street, pretty boy faces.

Larry

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accobraaccobraMember
quote:
would not contribute to an organization with this type of "MISSION STATEMENT".


I received an email at work the other day talking about how 2008 is the year that THE MAJORITY SPEAKS OUT AND PUTS THERE FOOT DOWN ... I SAY BOYCOT SHELBY and as you said those little pretty boys on wall street suck wind.

I know myself in my business HVAC and Plumbing ..this corporate shits try to tell me in contracts that I can only charge 10 / 10 on extra work ... I tell them kiss off I dont get out of bed for that kind of overhead and profit.

2008 is the year that THE MAJORITY SPEAKS OUT AND PUTS THERE FOOT DOWN.

Ron
panteradougpanteradougMember
Yep. It's pretty hot over there. I must admit that the heat of the battle is getting the best of me. I guess I like the fight?

If you didn't pick it up yet and if you are interested CS released am extensive statement in response to enthusiasts clamor for his head.

There is plenty of truth, and lies being said about both sides. Unfortunately it looks like there are irreconcilable differences and this is heading for a jury.

Somehow he thinks he owns SAAC. Incidentally, I didn't see anyone mention the fact that he filed 11/13/07 to Trademark the SAAC logo as his?

This is a Shelby version of a hostile takeover. Everyone should follow it. It's quite a scenario and is at least entertaining.

I'm know as Shelbydoug over there and you can see what a big jerk I am. I'm right in the thick of it. Ah for the smell of napom in the morning!
accobraaccobraMember
I have been down this road on a much smaller scale and the only winners are the lawyers ... they settle it out with each other and both parties only end up with big bills for fees and nothing to show for it. Maybe one party will win but what we forget after the judge rules is.... the consumer loses interest and the money that were being made ..lets say in this case from SAAC Membership .. now are split bewteen 2 parties and now its no longer fun and prifitable.

Ron
accobraaccobraMember
Cyboman .. the reality probably is that once the Pantera's resale value climbs above 100k you will see the patents and rights people have will be worth some real money and they will come out of the wood work ... I was offered to buy rights to a certain name and as of now this is a hobby to me ..but those rights some day could be worth some real money ..

Ron
C charliemccallMember
This could happen to us if certain people get bored and have nothing better to do.

About 4/5 years ago, Santiago deTomaso went after the US vendors for using the DeTomaso name without the factory's authorization. The change was probably noticed by few, but part of the solution was that the vendors had to include the phrase "Classic DeTomaso Parts", so that they wouldn't be confused with, say, the multitude of Guara suppliers. (which, now that I think about it, I haven't seen the "classic" reference in a while)

I have personally participated in a conversation with Santiago where he was contemplating going after the US clubs for royalties, enforcing trademarks to the limit of the law, etc etc. I think it's pretty clear that DeTomaso owns the right to their name, Wilkinson is the only one who owns the right to import parts into the US and the other vendors purchase from Steve. Except, in a sort of Italian way, when it isn't the case.

Anyway, could it happen to us? Yes. Will it happen? I doubt it, but it could happen...
garth66garth66"When speed is the only thing that counts"
It's a crying shame! Carrol Shelby used to be a hero of mine, but now he stands for everything I'm opposed to. He's nothing but a greedy selfish thieving dishonest money-grubbing whore without regard or appreciation for those who gave him his current status and success. The Cobra was a crappy poorly engineered car. The only reason the whole world knows about the Cobra is because of the enthusiasm of the clubs, vendors, and replica manufacturers. Without the replica manufacturers and the market that THEY created (not Shelby), his products would not be as ultra collectible and valuable as they are today.

I will celebrate the day he kicks the bucket by putting my brand new Shelby autographed Mustang glovebox door on ebay that's been in storage for 10 years (signed before his signature went to hell!). After all, there's NO WAY I'd put his POS signature my Mustang (GT350 clone).
panteradougpanteradougMember
I don't know Ron? Wanna' vote on it?

Shelby himself made a coment on the Cobras quality to the effect that it "looked like it was made by a wine-o who lived under the London bridge".

If you ever get a chance to look at an original 289 chassis up close, look at the welds. They look like an 8th grade shop class was learning on them. Seriously. Check one out.

The main tubes are so cheap that the engine twists them. The Cobra people call it a "torqued chassis"

When you ride in the car it shakes and vibrates so badly that you can't see out of the rear view mirror.

The first time I rode in one it melted the glue off of the sole of my sneaker.

No, the car is genuinely a piece of "do-do". It has a lot to do with why the production numbers are so low.

The 427's are genuinely God-awful fast, The 289's are fast for thier time but nothing special by todays standards.

I know that your AC is by far a much better car then Shelby's 289 car ever was. Probably even the 427. Thank Brian Angliss's deaf ear for not listening and correcting those short comings. It has a lot of little improvements to it that you would see if you put the two cars side by side.

I'm sorry if I hurt anyones feelings, except Shelby's that is. It's just my very humble opinion. I am a simpleton you know?
Last edited by panteradoug
accobraaccobraMember
Doug ..your point is well taken .. but are we taking poor quality or poor engineering.

The Salsibury suspension is still in my 1988 25 years later. Cars of the era all have the same issues.

So my point is by todays standards poorly engineered yes ... but for its time independent rear suspension and front leaf spring and full ladder frame, also in the sence that the same rear could handle the 427's HP.

Again the TRACK RECORD is what I base my point on ... there has to be some engineering based on the winnings.
Ron
davidbdavidbMember
Wow. You guys sure don't hold back!

So what have you got to say to good ole Alessandro? His car had plenty of shortcomings until the enthusiasts solved the problems.

That doesn't make me like him or his car any less.

In fact it makes me think of what Japanese car manufacturers did to our auto industry. They have certainly improved on the idea, but that sure doesn't take anything away from those who first created the industry.

They were the visionaries.
panteradougpanteradougMember
First let me say that in the past you have been critical of me as being a know it all and that's ok. I guess I had that coming.

I don't pretend to be an expert. I try to share my experience. I'm not a know it all.
I'm 58 and have some more miles of experience then some do with cars. It doesn't make me right, these are just my experiences or opinions based on my experiences.

As a matter of fact someone just promoted me to smartass. Usually I'm called a dumbass. That's a big improvement.

I started looking to buy a Cobra around 1972. There were more then a few available in our area.
The more I looked the more I discovered that a Cobra is one of the least practical street cars I have ever seen. If you like a motorcycle, you will like a Cobra.

A 427 Cobra is like "driving" a tremendous big bore Harley.
You wind up wind buffed, body tingling from the vibrations and your ears ringing from the exhaust, just like a "bike".

Every 427 I looked at to buy, every one had like 10,000 miles and either had a broken engine in it or was on it's second or third engine.

The bodies were like the Rovers in that everywhere you looked there were strange dimples in the aluminum. Handmarks, knee marks, ass marks.

If you look at the back view of the car, particularly the 289, the left fender doesn't match the right fender. One looks like it was sideswiped and pushed out by a gypsy cab driver with a 5 gallon can of bondo. BUT that's the way they came from Shelby.

I can go on and on about how the doors don't close or stay closed or how the tops don't meet the rear cowl, etc.

The quality of the build of all the Cobras is horendis, really really bad.

The Ford engines in the cars are really the only good thing about them.

I can't really blame Shelby for most of it. The quality of the English labor of the time is amonst the worst ever.

Hey. I think it is even worse then I just stated. I'm trying to be nice.

There are american engineered improvements in the coil spring cars and certainly the Daytona Coupes are works of art. But in relation to the 289, leaf spring chassis, the term engineering shouldn't even apply.

If you put wings on that thing it could be a pre WWI scout plane. Yikes.

The Cobras engineering advantage? Horsepower to weight ratio, the Ford Motor Co, and southern California inginuity and can do additude.

As far as what I think of the Pantera? I think it is a work of art. A relatively undiscovered work of art. So many of the design and engineering considerations apply themselves well even today.
The drawback to the Pantera is the thought that the car was only built to last five years.

Had more consideration been put to corrosion issues over time, it would improve the car 100%.

The cabin is even adaptable to creature comforts of today.

I think Detomaso and Tjarda (sorry I don't spell well Tom) are visionaries. Shelby isn't too dumb either, but he didn't design the Cobra, he sort of discovered it.

Of course these are all my opionions and yes I am quite caught up in the heat of the momomet with the SAAC/Shelby thing.

If a little venom is frothing from my mouth and dripping on you guys I'm sorry. Maybe I need treatment?

And not that I need to qualify anything butI have quite an axe to grind with Kopec and Eber personally. But in this case they are the angels and the other guy is not.
Last edited by panteradoug
D detom (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
First let me say that in the past you have been critical of me as being a know it all and that's ok. I guess I had that coming.

I don't pretend to be an expert. I try to share my experience. I'm not a know it all.
I'm 58 and have some more miles of experience then some do with cars. It doesn't make me right, these are just my experiences or opinions based on my experiences.

As a matter of fact someone just promoted me to smartass. Usually I'm called a dumbass. That's a big improvement.

I started looking to buy a Cobra around 1972. There were more then a few available in our area.
The more I looked the more I discovered that a Cobra is one of the least practical street cars I have ever seen. If you like a motorcycle, you will like a Cobra.

A 427 Cobra is like "driving" a tremendous big bore Harley.
You wind up wind buffed, body tingling from the vibrations and your ears ringing from the exhaust, just like a "bike".

Every 427 I looked at to buy, every one had like 10,000 miles and either had a broken engine in it or was on it's second or third engine.

The bodies were like the Rovers in that everywhere you looked there were strange dimples in the aluminum. Handmarks, knee marks, ass marks.

If you look at the back view of the car, particularly the 289, the left fender doesn't match the right fender. One looks like it was sideswiped and pushed out by a gypsy cab driver with a 5 gallon can of bondo. BUT that's the way they came from Shelby.

I can go on and on about how the doors don't close or stay closed or how the tops don't meet the rear cowl, etc.

The quality of the build of all the Cobras is horendis, really really bad.

The Ford engines in the cars are really the only good thing about them.

I can't really blame Shelby for most of it. The quality of the English labor of the time is amonst the worst ever.

Hey. I think it is even worse then I just stated. I'm trying to be nice.

There are american engineered improvements in the coil spring cars and certainly the Daytona Coupes are works of art. But in relation to the 289, leaf spring chassis, the term engineering shouldn't even apply.

If you put wings on that thing it could be a pre WWI scout plane. Yikes.

The Cobras engineering advantage? Horsepower to weight ratio, the Ford Motor Co, and southern California inginuity and can do additude.

As far as what I think of the Pantera? I think it is a work of art. A relatively undiscovered work of art. So many of the design and engineering considerations apply themselves well even today.
The drawback to the Pantera is the thought that the car was only built to last five years.

Had more consideration been put to corrosion issues over time, it would improve the car 100%.

The cabin is even adaptable to creature comforts of today.

I think Detomaso and Tjarda (sorry I don't spell well Tom) are visionaries. Shelby isn't too dumb either, but he didn't design the Cobra, he sort of discovered it.

Of course these are all my opionions and yes I am quite caught up in the heat of the momomet with the SAAC/Shelby thing.

If a little venom is frothing from my mouth and dripping on you guys I'm sorry. Maybe I need treatment?

And not that I need to qualify anything butI have quite an axe to grind with Kopec and Eber personally. But in this case they are the angels and the other guy is not.


Doug, this is why I try and read everything you write. This is a work of art in itself. I agree with you btw, but even if I didn't, I would acknowledge the presentation as exemplar. This is the kind of shit that just makes me love you to pieces. In a very het sort of way of course.
panteradougpanteradougMember
Thanks for the compliment DT. I would probably agree with you more if I knew what exempler meant.
Jeff6569, no I'm not talking about your Pantera.
The Pantera has always impressed me as one of the smoothest cars to drive at excessive speed that I have ever had the pleasure to drive.
I would go as far as saying any idiot can drive the thing fast and safely.
I presume that you have never had the experience of driving or even riding in a 289 Cobra.
I would say that normal operation of the car resembles strongly the reaction that you will get from something like an F4 with one wing shot off.
That's what I call vibration.

Ofcourse the Doc warned me that I might have lingering reprecusions from multiple head injuries. They flare up at the damdest times.

Flack, flack...oh sorry it was only a garbage truck. Later!
garth66garth66"When speed is the only thing that counts"
quote:
"The Cobra was a crappy poorly engineered car."

EEEEHHH .. sorry wrong answer ...we can go on and on and your entitled to your opinion ... but the history books say your statement is inaccurate !

I maintain it's true. Not that I wouldn't want one. I've wanted one for years, but I'll never be able to afford one. The engineering in the 289 Cobra is ancient and nothing special. And although Ford helped with redesigning the suspension for the 427 Cobra, it was such a nose heavy beast that it had nasty handling characteristics. Overall build quality on these cars is generally poor, but then so were a lot of cars of that era. All the history books show is that a big engine in a small car is fast - nothing about how well the car was engineered.

Case in point: The new Superformance Daytona Coupe. I spoke with Pete Brock at the Monterey Historics when his "new" coupe was first released and he talked about how poorly engineered the first Daytona Coupes were, and how much better a car the new Coupe is (of course, he want's to sell a bunch of new ones too).

Ron Butler, who was on the original Shelby team that developed the Cobra, has continued engineering development (or evolution) of the Cobra with the replicas he sells - improved suspension geometry, relocated engine, and a few other improvements that make for a significantly better handling car.

And Shelby admitted that the Cobra was a poor quality car himself. As a matter of fact, when has Shelby EVER produced anything first rate? Never! (Well, maybe his chili, but I wonder what's really in there?) If Shelby could make a buck cutting a corner, he did. If he could make a buck lying about rusty "left-over" Cobra chassis, he did. If he could make a buck slapping his name on a Dodge Omni, he did. If he could make a buck selling his name to a company that makes replica Cobras and tries to claim they're "real", he did. FWIW, the current "shelby" cobras are a far superior car to the original because they're built by a replica manufacturer (Kirkham) who Shelby sources them from.

Again, I would love to have a Cobra, but I would take a 289 Cobra (or replica) over a 427 any day. It's a much better balanced car. Actually, I'd love a 289 FIA replica with all the suspension and handling upgrades of the 427 cars and more current replicas.

Then again, my 66 Mustang GT350 clone is little more than a tarted up Falcon. And as already pointed out in this thread, the Pantera wasn't much better from the factory.

Glad we can agree on some things and disagree on others. And if any of you have Cobras (real or otherwise) I'd love to go for a ride if you're ever in my area.

Cheers!
Garth
accobraaccobraMember
quote:
First let me say that in the past you have been critical of me as being a know it all

First let me say that in the past you have been critical of me as being a know it all ............. You talking to me ??? LOL My brother your free to express your self .... My experience with the webers ...was I needed a crow bar to get it out of you ...dont worry I love ya... its a new york kinda thing.

Ron
accobraaccobraMember
Garth 66 ..we agree on most but I guess as Doug has pointed out my 88 AC I guess is a much more refined automobile with a 302 EFI and a 5 speed ... bad example for me to be using for a driving / engineering experience.

I did own a 69 GT500 and it handled like a 69 mustang .. very poor.

Only thing that still bothers me is how the old cobras beat the Ferrari's with such poor engineering...so do we put the rest of the EURO cars in the same class of poor engineering ?

Doug I do agree that

" The Pantera has always impressed me as one of the smoothest cars to drive at excessive speed that I have ever had the pleasure to drive. I would go as far as saying any idiot can drive the thing fast and safely."

At pocono my stock pantera hit 250km and was very impressed how smooth it was ...

Ron
D detom (Guest)
Dear Doug,

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

exemplary

SYLLABICATION: ex·em·pla·ry
PRONUNCIATION: g-zmpl-r
ADJECTIVE: 1. Worthy of imitation; commendable: exemplary behavior. 2. Serving as a model. 3. Serving as an illustration; typical. 4. Serving as a warning; admonitory.
ETYMOLOGY: From Middle English exaumplarie, exemplere, an exemplar. See exemplar.
OTHER FORMS: exem·plari·ly (gzm-plâr-l) —ADVERB
ex·empla·ri·ness, exem·plari·ty (gzm-plr-t) —NOUN
panteradougpanteradougMember
It was said at one time that the 289 race Cobras were set up for each race track with a tire gauge.
It isn't that they were so well engineered that they didn't need anything, it was that there wasn't much you could do with them other then that.

The transverse leaf spring was pretty trick for 1950 but not 1965. Everything was wrong with it.
The tires would lean the opposite way then the should in a turn. Not good is an understatement.
Turns were not the 289 Cobras strong point.

The Ferraris were beat by the simplicity of the Cobra, the hp to weight ratio and the talent of the drivers like Miles. Not to mention being outnumbered by the Cobras.

The Ferraris were heavier and more complicated by comparison. They couldn't possibly have been easy to work on mechanically either so there was pressure to get them prepared for a race.

The 427 Cobras actually handle very well. They have a very similar front rear weight ratio to the Pantera but with about 100 hp more and about 500 pounds lighter.

Don't forget the race 427's were running with things like a magnesium intake, aluminum heads and block. That doesn't quite make it as light as a 289 but it takes 150 pounds off of the engine and the front end.

Bob Bondurant has said on many occassions that he thought the best combination in a Cobra would have been a 351 in a coil spring chassis.
I think he feels that the 427's had to much hp.

You need to condiser that the coil spring Cobra chassis was redesigned by Claus Arnig at Ford on their supercomputer.

It has revised geometry, a larger od tube mainframe and uses a thicker tubing.

Many people don't realize or have forgotten that the limiting factor back in those days was the tires.
The best race tires of the day were only a little better then the Goodyear Polyglass tire. Remeber them?

Those tires on say a '69 GT500 Convertable with almost 70% of it's weight on the front are almost lethal.

A lot of people told me that traction wise not oly could you not safely drive a 427 in the rain but they were unsafe to drive on a wet surface.

Oh, and Allstate refused to insure the car at any rate. Even a blind man could see the writing on the wall. I guess all of these things are why I didn't buy one? Carter Gette would sell you any 427 you wanted for $8500.

He figured he was going to get killed in the car anyway so he figured he'd die right and he installed a 'cammer in the car.

He came up on me from behind with that thing and I thought there was a 747 trying to land. Wow. What a sound.
Last edited by panteradoug
O osofastMember
quote:
In fact it makes me think of what Japanese car manufacturers did to our auto industry. They have certainly improved on the idea, but that sure doesn't take anything away from those who first created the industry

DEEB, you are so right with this statement. Look at G.M. they signed up with Toyota to build cars together in the 80's now look at them. The Japanese cant seem to build anything on their own but let them reverse engineer it and they will prevail.
Lastly I think I have created a monster with this thread. This is the most lively one I have seen in my time here!
Jeff burn rubber
Last edited by osofast
accobraaccobraMember
quote:
ADJECTIVE: 1. Worthy of imitation; commendable: exemplary behavior. 2. Serving as a model. 3. Serving as an illustration;



Doug ... prying it out of you ????? Spit it out ????

LOL LOL LOL

Thanks Doug ... all I base my facts on is experience ...... the start was when I was 5 years old riding in a GT350R out if White Plains Ford around the clover leaf at 87 and Saw mill river rd at 90 mph and rolling around with the spare tire with my Dad driving.

Can you relate ??


Ron

ROn
panteradougpanteradougMember
You are refering to Larsen Ford on Westchester Ave in White Planins I believe.
I was there several times with my dad when he would be looking for a stattion wagon or a pickup truck.
I never saw a Cobra or a Shelby there.

I did see about six funny looking white Galaxies with funny looking hoods and painted front bumpers and wheels though.
You know, they didn't even have radios? Geeze.

He never bought anything there because Bill Kolb was there and ever car would have some sort of extra package from Larsen Ford on it and you couldn't compare prices.

I used to go to Byrne Bros Cheverolet on Virginia Road all the time to look at the Corvettes. Curry on Central Ave, and Hory in Larchmont were favorite stopping places also.

High performance Fords in this vacinity were non existant back thm. GM OWNED this area.
accobraaccobraMember
"You are refering to Larsen Ford on Westchester Ave in White Planins"

Yes Larsen Ford ... he bought a 65 R in late 66 which I think was left over that someone ordered and never picked up. Needless ot say my father lent it to his brother and my uncle catapolted it over the bridge on tuchahoe rd. and wrecked the car.

" You think that had anything to do with the GM plant in Tarrytown?"

I think Doug is right it was FORDS ways ..because let us not forget FORD was building these Galaxies only 10 miles up 87 at the FORD PLANT in Mahwah NJ. So they were available .. I dont know what they were making in Tarrytown @ GM ?

Ron
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