Should I buy this Pantera?

.....

Front

Motor

Interior

Rear

Trunk

Trans

paint damage

Tough call. I think it's a decent deal overall. Clearly the prior owner cared very much for it and had done a lot to it. It's a real shame it's been stored in such an exposed way the last several years apparently. There's no question you will have rust issues as a result, even if it's not yet obvious from the body. But most Panteras do (not all those owners know it either). Honestly, I bet you can get it running pretty well pretty quickly, assuming the motor and tranny move freely. You'll want to flush fluids, grease, replace belts and hoses and such before you do much going fast. Even then, some other issues may come to light. Normally I would recommend paying more and getting a nicer specimen. But overall this one sounds pretty reasonable IF the drivetrain and the electricals are sound, especially if you can do some work yourself. Make sure you can do the body/paint work or can spend another $4,000 plus for it (way more if you have someone disassemble everything for the paint job it really deserves). Plus some reupholstery and tires, and I doubt the AC compressor seals are still good. Just be aware you could have $30K or more in it pretty quickly. But you don't have to do all that immediately. Good luck with your decision.

Bob, What are your intentions with the car? If it will run, I would take a good long hard look at the transaxle and how it shifts. If it misses a beat at all I would lean toward believing it will need some $$.

I don't see any corner or part that isn't going to need work. Based on that the only way I personally would see it worth near 20K would be if the ZF was a fresh overhaul and if you were looking for a car to do a total tear down and restoration.

That's just me.

G

I agree with Button Door. This is a "do it yourselfer" kind of car. It is recommended to buy the best Pantera you can afford or you can end up invested pretty fast and heavy in a project like this. Definately check out the engine and transaxle those are big ticket as is rust. Good luck in your decision and keep us posted with what you find.

I see nothing in the photos that would stop me from buying it as a project car. It really depends upon the condition of the motor, trans & how much (if any) rust damage there is.

Keep in mind that Pantera restoration & modification is more costly than a muscle car or a sport compact.

If rust is minimal, and you really want a project car, offer $15K and see what they say.

good luck

I planned on it being a project car. I hoped to get it for 17K and put another $15K into it.

My father builds race motors, so I will get a solid rebuild (or new motor) for a fair price.

I also have a good connection for body and paint and will be tearing it down for them.

I can do "remove and replace" work such as interior.

Robert

I think your deffinantly in the ballpark. You will have a lot of work ahead of you. At least in 10 years it will be worth more.

In today's market and at $17K I think this looks like a reasonable project for someone with the aptitude to do much of their own work, or as you suggest 'know a man that can' for some of the stuff that is beyond the average garage mechanics ability or more often resources.

My question is do you want a GT4 conversion? If the answer is 'yes' then this looks a good place to start. If not, then restoring this one back to original would take a lot of work and $$.

From the pictures it would appear the previous owner put some effort and thought into this car. S/S firewall, lay-down radiator & Flexalite sucker fans etc. It would be worth taking a knowledgeable Pantera owner with you to inspect the car and determine what other unseen upgrades there may be. This will aid in both gaining some insight into the previous owner and also help determine a value for the car. For instance the wheels do not look like Campi's (which could value as much as $3K for the 13's and 10's width), more like a painted steel rim.

There is one burning question that remains in my mind, which is whether the flares are steel or fiberglass? You would have to place more value on steel ($1750 just for the flares, without mounting etc.) vs. fiberglass that can be had for ~$400. The work involved in the steel flares is significantly more complex, but the front fender crack you show leads me to think they are fiberglass.

If it were me I would be very tempted to take this car 'as is' and not have someone quickly try and get it running and/or moving. To my mind more damage than good could ensue from that because if it has been stood as long as the photos would indicate there may be internal surface rust and/or seized rings etc. The oil in both the engine and ZF will have been sitting at the bottom for all that time. I would take it home, tear it down and send the ZF to a reputable Pantera vendor for inspection and rebuild. The motor may need nothing more than strip down, clean and reassembly at this point.

I've probably used up my 2 cents plus some change, all that remains to say is "Good Luck" with whatever you decide to do.

Julian

It is highly unlikely that you will find another in this good a condition for this kind of money.
Do you need to put money into it? You sure do.

How much? Alot. Even if you do it yourself.

You may get lucky and find that it is just one heck of a heavy duty paint job. Being it a Pantera, that seems very unlikely, but hey, you never know.

But if you let it go by you will never know for sure.

Please let us know if you do not buy the car, maybe one of us would like to buy it, thanks

Julian (and all),

Great feedback everyone. Here are a few answers to questions:

Julian - yes I am SPECIFICALLY looking for a GT4. I like the look, and I would never have the guts to cut up a stock car.

You are correct, the wheels are crap. I took that into account.

I was bummed to find out the flairs are glass, but they seem to be in great shape.

I think you are right. It may be better to take it "as-is" and have it gone through before doing any real driving. I did want to fire it up just to make sure it actually runs...is that a bad idea?

With flat tires there is no way I can get a feel for the condition of the transmission is there?

Robert

Robert,

For the transmission all you can really do is jack up the rear end and spin the wheels by hand. If you can get someone to depress the clutch pedal (this is assuming the pressure plate isn't seized to the flywheel and the brakes are not binding) then they could just run through the gears, feeling for effort in gear selection and function turning the wheels by hand.

It doesn't count for much, because most issues won't show up under 'no load' but at least gives you piece of mind the transmission has basic rotational functionality through the gears. Count on at least $2500 just to open it up for a prognosis and to check the ring gear is safety wired.

The general concensus is it's a good buy at $17K. As you want a GT4 anyway there's a personal plus for you that makes it more appealing.

If and when you get stuck, there's always plenty of advice here on the PIBB and there are members in the Vegas area. I hope to see you at the POCA Annual Rally in Vegas come April.

Julian

By the way Robert,

anybody that brings a dead Pantera back to life gets special kudos from the club pres!

Double that and you might be close.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RobertVegas:
and put another $15K into it.

Hmmm... when I first saw it I thought it was a steal. Now that I look at all of it and think of all the work you have ahead - even with Dad being an engine guy and a friend having a body shop. Labout and materials coosts money and you need a lot of both. Just the tranny, the electrical, the interior, and all the trim throughout and I have to think you will soon have $50k in it. It will be nice for sure by then, but there's a lot of Pcar you can buy right now for $50k or less!

You might want to find out how all the dirt got inside the car to make sure it has not been in a flood. Also, often when cars are left for a few years setting in the dirt the corrosion on the underside of the car can be extremely bad.

I have to second that part about being on the ground.
You can't do that with a Pantera.
You set irreversable wheels in motion and there is no going back and the car in many cases isn't even good for parts.

I've seen about a dozen Panteras with that problem and even the zf got wiped out.

Of course, you won't know until you look under the car. If there is indication that it was lying in the mud I'd forget about it.

quote:

You are correct, the wheels are crap.

Gold Wheels! DeTom would like em!

All this new info is a great help. I am getting a broad price estimate on finishing it ($15k, $30K, even $50K)...maybe a little more info will help narrow it down.

I want it to be a driver, not a show car. I will not do a frame-off restoration.

I think the motor and trans are fresh, but will need to be gone through because it has been sitting.

The seller claims it was a strong driver five years ago when they parked it, and that with a fluid change and tires it would be drivable (but ugly). He is a mechanic, Pantera owner (he is also restoring a GTS), member of this BB and as a friend of a friend, I hope he is relatively trustworthy.

Thank you for pointing out that the parts sitting on the ground my be ruined. I will see it up on the rack soon.

Anyone that thinks they have already given too much advice, please give me any other thoughts you have. I want to have a car I can personalize, I want it to by a GT4 (without cutting a stock car), but I want to make an smart decision. Thank you eveyone that has given me advice so far.

Robert

quote:

Originally posted by jeff6559:

quote:

You are correct, the wheels are crap.

Gold Wheels! DeTom would like em!

Shhh Jeff. I am waiting for him to offer them for sale so I can pick them up at a reasonable price. If you go tipping him off that I want them he will think they are made of real gold or something.

quote:

Anyone that thinks they have already given too much advice, please give me any other thoughts you have.

Uhm, Robert ole pal, I may be able to pay you shipping on them there crappy wheels you don't want so you don't have to haul them down to the dump. Just cause I am a nice guy and all.

Bwahahaaa, maybe I like those wheels more than I thought. Actually, I like them a lot...and wouldn't part with them at any cost. But you can make me an offer.

I'm kidding of course. If I get the car I will want to put taller wheels on it and will probably sell the gold ones. Not my style.

You're better off with a show car, nothing will break again once you fix it the first time :-)
(Did I say that?)

3000.00 to 5,000.00 to go through the ZF
5000.00+ for a Motor
1000.00 for updated radiator, fans & cooling
3000.00+ for Interior
3000.00+ for wheels & tires
5000.00+ for body work & paint
3000.00+ for brakes & suspension(upgraded)
5000.00+ for upgrades & fixes to A/C, window gears & motors, streering box & rack, headlights, various electric motors, lights, switches, wiring, powder coating & jet hot coatings, clutch, flywheel, motor mounts, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc....

Then there's rust repairs if needed....

And.....then there's labor if you are paying someone else to do the work. Big $$$

It adds up quicker than you can begin to imagine. Just go into with your eyes WIDE open, know that it's going to take many months if not years to complete and you'll spend MORE than you planned.

If you think I'm kidding, start pricing parts...

But when your done, you'll love it and it will all be worth the time & effort you put into it.

If you want something to drive, buy one that has had most of the work and upgrades done. You'll probably be better off in the long run and a lot less fustrated unless time and money doesn't matter to you.


[QUOTE]I want it to be a driver, not a show car. I will not do a frame-off restoration.

Even IF you want it to be a show car, you won't do a frame off restoration, because Panteras don't have a frame, they're a uni-body.

Yeah, I knew that...I'm just so familiar with the term I threw it out without thinking of what it literally meant. Oops. *blushing*

quote:

Originally posted by RobertVegas:
Bwahahaaa, maybe I like those wheels more than I thought. Actually, I like them a lot...and wouldn't part with them at any cost. But you can make me an offer.

I'm kidding of course. If I get the car I will want to put taller wheels on it and will probably sell the gold ones. Not my style.

Well I have some taller wheels so that may not be a problem. If you do get the car maybe we can work something out. The way they talk about a total restoration around here is to say "Rotiserie". That is because you stick a big beam through the car so you can rotate it around as you work on it. That Ron guy who posted to you is doing that. So is this Gary from Indiana. They are both fearless artisans. I wish I was more like them, but I don't have talent.

Robert
Just buy my car and be done with it!!

If you're looking for a GR4 and a huge project, go for it. I wouldn't consider it though. I'd spend 10k more and buy a solid known car without any surprises. That's just my 2cents.
I wish I had of bought a car that was done. The bills are really starting to add up and my car was in good shape.
Will

If you can buy a solid well known car without any suprises for only $10K more, point me at it! If Emery will sell his for $27-$30, I'll buy it! I have two friends who have been actively searching for a decent "driver" pantera with no success for almost a year now. Granted, the cars exist, but not for $30K or less. They can't be found for under $40K on the left coast.

Yeah, it's true you can buy a restored Pantera for less than the cost to restore one yourself. But most of the crap I've seen for $40K or less has not been "restored." Some have resale red paint jobs, but you still need to do the suspension, brakes, engine, and paint. Others in this price range advertise that they're restored, but you get there and find that the paint is 10-15 years old, cracked, chipped and needs to be redone anyway. Or, they have nice paint and interior, but the chassis suffers from the tin-worm. Still others have been "restored" to an owner's questionable taste and you'd spend more un-doing and correcting their "upgrades."

This car already has a lot of upgrades. The only real issue is RUST. Get it up on a rack with someone who's knowledgeable on Panteras, smack the hell out of the rear suspension vertical tubes and frame with a hammer and screwdriver. If it's solid and rust-free, BUY IT!

If it's rust free, it would be a solid platform to build the car of your dreams. And, you'd know everything that's been done to the car when you're done, versus the unknowns of buying someone elses completed "restoration" project.

Anyway, if you don't want it, send me the seller's name and phone number and I'll see that the car finds a good home very quickly.

Ciao!

I predict that in another ten years ONLY guys like Ron and Gary will be able to buy and fix up Panteras. Everyone else will be SOL as all rust free Panteras will be a thing of the past. People who spent a hundred grand on restoring their cars will be getting that and more IF they decide to sell, and guys like Ron and Gary will be in business for themselves, finding barn Panteras and making them like new.

Detom you hit on a point I was going make. If your plans are to do a full restoration, some times there is not that much difference in one that is rough and one that sells for 20K more. The main thing is all the pieces are there and in restorable condition.

Case in point, many people ask me why I was stripping my car because it looked so good. I could have easily sold it for good money as is and people would have said it was a good deal and a good car.

After you live with a car you start to see things not quite right. All these things start to add up. When I stripped it down my hunches were correct.

This car had been re-done in the 80's and it was a work of art....Sculpted out of bondo!. I have replaced metal in a dozen locations with fresh metal BUT-----The metal repairs I made are the same repairs that SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE when the car was done 20 years ago! I would say the metal underneath is no more deteriorated than it was 20 years ago but I attribute that to keeping the car dry over the last 20+ years.

SOOO, Compromise, buy a $35K Pantera, sink money into it now and then to keep it going, and when the little things start adding up do a full restoration or start with a $15K Pantera and do it right off the bat.

If you WANT to do a restoration; and I do, I think a car in this condition is a great way to start.

Another case in point. I have too many cars. I bough a 1976 Cutlass a while back. Not an overly collectible or desirable car but one I always liked and wanted. It is a good old car with lots of mileage. Solid for it's age but a few problems here and there.

One problem is the dash; it's warped and cracked in several locations. After market not available. So I happen to find a very very good dash on ebay with heater controls and wire harness and it is in very good shape. Do I spend a couple weekends replacing the dash only to tear the car down a few years from now and completely restore the car or just sit on the dash until I do the restoration?

No one can dictate an individuals situation. It works for me to do every nut and bolt. I like it that way. I can also tell you I am more proud of taking my MGB then the Pantera to a car event because I restored every nut and bolt and I fabricated 2-dozen individual changes in the car from 1999 Toyota window regulators to electronic heater controls. When I showed up with the Pantera before restoration people ask if I did the restoration. "No, I just plopped down cash for it". There is no pride in that. I am looking forward to showing up at the track or a car event with the changes I made with a car I restored and Painted.

http://www.rc-tech.net/MGB/gal/d1.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/MGB/gal/done3.jpg
http://www.rc-tech.net/MGB/gal/done5.jpg

But that's just me.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
I predict that in another ten years ONLY guys like Ron and Gary will be able to buy and fix up Panteras. Everyone else will be SOL as all rust free Panteras will be a thing of the past. People who spent a hundred grand on restoring their cars will be getting that and more IF they decide to sell, and guys like Ron and Gary will be in business for themselves, finding barn Panteras and making them like new.

Thanks Gary, but someday they will no longer even be called Panteras, but Gary's. Kids of the furture will have cars you did on holographic posters on their bedroom walls.