Just wondering if anyone can tell me the specs on these heads? Valve size and things of that nature.
Do heads like these benefit from porting and polishing? Or are they pretty decent as they come?
Steve
Buried...but still alive!
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Steve,
from memory, the C302 head was designed with a slightly smaller intake valve in mind than the 2.19" intake valve of the cast iron 4V head, I think either 2.125" or 2.15", and the exhaust valve was 1.65", again slightly smaller than the 1.71" exhaust valve of the cast iron 4V head.
The exhaust port is raised significantly compared to that of the 4V head, it is round rather than square, it has a good contant cross sectional area throughout the port, it was left small with alot of extra aluminum cast into the walls by Ford, to allow porting by the racing teams as they saw fit. The floor of the port has a good radius to it.
The roof of the intake port is raised 3/8" higher than the roof on the 4V intake port, although the port itself is approximately the size of a cast iron 2V port (a little taller & a little narrower than the 2V port). The difference is the port has a much better constant cross section, and a better short side (port floor) radius, allowing the gases to curve with the port rather than separating & creating turbulence. The intake port cross section is on the small side, it has a lot of excess aluminum cast into the walls, roof & floor intentionally by Ford, allowing the racing teams to open & shape the port as they saw fit. I cannot comment how much, if any, porting is necessary on a street motor. Your best bet, when you get to that point, will be to hook up with an experienced engine builder who can do your heads & grind a cam to meet your intended needs.
The combustion chamber & spark plug location are pretty much standard Cleveland designs. In this area, the more modern Brodix BF300 is superior. But overall, thats a pretty good head you have there my friend. As I wrote once before, there are street going Cleveland & Clevor engines, equipped with those heads, making 500 to 700 bhp, depending upon the displacement of the motor & how radical of a cam was installed. Not too shabby, eh?
So get the problems with your car ironed out & get it on down to a dyno operator, I'm curious to see what its output is right now.
your friend on the PIBB, George
from memory, the C302 head was designed with a slightly smaller intake valve in mind than the 2.19" intake valve of the cast iron 4V head, I think either 2.125" or 2.15", and the exhaust valve was 1.65", again slightly smaller than the 1.71" exhaust valve of the cast iron 4V head.
The exhaust port is raised significantly compared to that of the 4V head, it is round rather than square, it has a good contant cross sectional area throughout the port, it was left small with alot of extra aluminum cast into the walls by Ford, to allow porting by the racing teams as they saw fit. The floor of the port has a good radius to it.
The roof of the intake port is raised 3/8" higher than the roof on the 4V intake port, although the port itself is approximately the size of a cast iron 2V port (a little taller & a little narrower than the 2V port). The difference is the port has a much better constant cross section, and a better short side (port floor) radius, allowing the gases to curve with the port rather than separating & creating turbulence. The intake port cross section is on the small side, it has a lot of excess aluminum cast into the walls, roof & floor intentionally by Ford, allowing the racing teams to open & shape the port as they saw fit. I cannot comment how much, if any, porting is necessary on a street motor. Your best bet, when you get to that point, will be to hook up with an experienced engine builder who can do your heads & grind a cam to meet your intended needs.
The combustion chamber & spark plug location are pretty much standard Cleveland designs. In this area, the more modern Brodix BF300 is superior. But overall, thats a pretty good head you have there my friend. As I wrote once before, there are street going Cleveland & Clevor engines, equipped with those heads, making 500 to 700 bhp, depending upon the displacement of the motor & how radical of a cam was installed. Not too shabby, eh?
So get the problems with your car ironed out & get it on down to a dyno operator, I'm curious to see what its output is right now.
your friend on the PIBB, George
George,
You sure seem to have a handle on these cars and there makings! I am kicking around the idea of going to a fuel injection system. I figure that I already have to buy a carb, seems as though this is the time to do it. I had read about the system that Quality Roadsters sells and it seems very nice. My brother is advising me to stick with the more known brand. (Edelbrock) The Edelbrock system can be had for $2600 as opposed to the $3200 for the Quality Roadsters kit. Any experience with these systems?
Steve
You sure seem to have a handle on these cars and there makings! I am kicking around the idea of going to a fuel injection system. I figure that I already have to buy a carb, seems as though this is the time to do it. I had read about the system that Quality Roadsters sells and it seems very nice. My brother is advising me to stick with the more known brand. (Edelbrock) The Edelbrock system can be had for $2600 as opposed to the $3200 for the Quality Roadsters kit. Any experience with these systems?
Steve
Steve,
I helped an old client & friend install a Ford mass air system on a classic Mustang about a decade ago. There were no thorough conversion kits like the Quality Roadsters kit available at the time, he collected parts by scrounging wrecking yards and purchased some parts new of course (injectors, MAF sensor, throttle body, air filter, fuel pump, intake manifold). The mass air system installation was plug & play. We installed components, wired it up, turned the key and drove the car. I couldn't have been more surprised. And what a difference it made with his engine. The car drove like a modern FI equipped car. The only true "adjustment" we had to make was setting the throttle position sensor.
I have never fiddled with a speed density system like the Edelbrock system you mentioned.
I am a big proponent of mass air flow (MAF) FI conversion. No secret there! While I suppose it would be possible to tune an engine so wildly that a MAF system would fall on its face, I can't imagine an engine that is "drivable" presenting that challenge.
MAF systems are plug & play. Speed density systems require "tweeking" to get them working right. This tweeking is either performed by you, empirically (drive it, tweek it, drive it, tweek it); or it is performed by a dyno operator. There are owners with speed density systems that will tell you they are happy with the results, but gloss over the work it took to get there.
Frankly, I am at a loss to understand anybody's resistance to the MAF FI system, especially for conversions onto older, non efi cars. The flexibility afforded by the MAF sensor makes MAF fuel injection ideal for retrofit installations. I believe your brothers advice is probably due to his lack of familiarity with the Quality Roadsters company. You need not be concerned, they are people who will stand behind their product & be there to assist you if needed.
There are thousands of Mustang owners with cars in a wide range of tune, mild to wild, all using MAF systems to meter fuel. The MAF sensor allows for extensive engine modification without the need to re-tune the computer; there is abundant parts & info available, and piggyback computer systems like Tweecer are available to allow you to "tweek" the parameters in the Ford computer. A replacement computer is as near as your local auto parts dealer, or wrecking yard. The standard Ford EEC IV scanners (like my Auto X Ray unit) can be used to troubleshoot problems should they arise.
I sincerely believe the MAF system (like the Quality Roadsters system)is the best system for the majority of Pantera owners wishing to upgrade to FI.
The benefit of the Quality Roadsters MAF system is that it maintains the looks of a carbureted engine. Owners can keep the induction system under the engine screen and they can keep their ribbed, aluminum "Pantera" air filter assembly. Or the big, oem Ford air filter.
Trick Flow is supposed to be developing a lower FI intake manifold for the 351C with 2V heads, that will mate with their upper manifold for the 351W. This will meet the needs of an owner prefering the modern looks of a long runner efi manifold. Don't worry about the 2V head thing, it just gives an owner an excuse to buy a set of CHI 2V or 3V heads from Jerry at PI Motorsports.
For more info, check out Thomas Tornblom's article in the Winter 2004 edition of PI magazine, as well as his web site http://www.detomaso.nu/~thomast/efi
Dan Jones has provided his usual abundant & detailed info regarding FI systems in this forum, under the heading of Fuel Injection Survey (at the top of the list).
your friend on the PIBB, George
I helped an old client & friend install a Ford mass air system on a classic Mustang about a decade ago. There were no thorough conversion kits like the Quality Roadsters kit available at the time, he collected parts by scrounging wrecking yards and purchased some parts new of course (injectors, MAF sensor, throttle body, air filter, fuel pump, intake manifold). The mass air system installation was plug & play. We installed components, wired it up, turned the key and drove the car. I couldn't have been more surprised. And what a difference it made with his engine. The car drove like a modern FI equipped car. The only true "adjustment" we had to make was setting the throttle position sensor.
I have never fiddled with a speed density system like the Edelbrock system you mentioned.
I am a big proponent of mass air flow (MAF) FI conversion. No secret there! While I suppose it would be possible to tune an engine so wildly that a MAF system would fall on its face, I can't imagine an engine that is "drivable" presenting that challenge.
MAF systems are plug & play. Speed density systems require "tweeking" to get them working right. This tweeking is either performed by you, empirically (drive it, tweek it, drive it, tweek it); or it is performed by a dyno operator. There are owners with speed density systems that will tell you they are happy with the results, but gloss over the work it took to get there.
Frankly, I am at a loss to understand anybody's resistance to the MAF FI system, especially for conversions onto older, non efi cars. The flexibility afforded by the MAF sensor makes MAF fuel injection ideal for retrofit installations. I believe your brothers advice is probably due to his lack of familiarity with the Quality Roadsters company. You need not be concerned, they are people who will stand behind their product & be there to assist you if needed.
There are thousands of Mustang owners with cars in a wide range of tune, mild to wild, all using MAF systems to meter fuel. The MAF sensor allows for extensive engine modification without the need to re-tune the computer; there is abundant parts & info available, and piggyback computer systems like Tweecer are available to allow you to "tweek" the parameters in the Ford computer. A replacement computer is as near as your local auto parts dealer, or wrecking yard. The standard Ford EEC IV scanners (like my Auto X Ray unit) can be used to troubleshoot problems should they arise.
I sincerely believe the MAF system (like the Quality Roadsters system)is the best system for the majority of Pantera owners wishing to upgrade to FI.
The benefit of the Quality Roadsters MAF system is that it maintains the looks of a carbureted engine. Owners can keep the induction system under the engine screen and they can keep their ribbed, aluminum "Pantera" air filter assembly. Or the big, oem Ford air filter.
Trick Flow is supposed to be developing a lower FI intake manifold for the 351C with 2V heads, that will mate with their upper manifold for the 351W. This will meet the needs of an owner prefering the modern looks of a long runner efi manifold. Don't worry about the 2V head thing, it just gives an owner an excuse to buy a set of CHI 2V or 3V heads from Jerry at PI Motorsports.
For more info, check out Thomas Tornblom's article in the Winter 2004 edition of PI magazine, as well as his web site http://www.detomaso.nu/~thomast/efi
Dan Jones has provided his usual abundant & detailed info regarding FI systems in this forum, under the heading of Fuel Injection Survey (at the top of the list).
your friend on the PIBB, George