The Economy

and I don't think its going to get better soon !

Gas has an exponential impact on everything. I don't think it matters what anyone does, opec will find a way to make prices rise. And that raises the price of EVERYTHING especially that where the core products are transported several times.

Although the price of gas has become painful (as I put $70 worth of gas in my 455 olds today) it's price is what will ultimately create change. Not politicians demanding 55mpg cars, not the incumbent party nor moon phases. Alternatives will slowly creep in when gas is high....despite the government meddling..

I for one do not think cars getting great gas mileage is the answer. I think the answer has to be bigger. We have come a long way. I personally believe the solution is going to require a change in the physical structure of society.

In doing so I think nominal transportation will be created where big roads are not used but rather small transport cubicals. Not all people will subject themselves to the mass transportation systems. People like and need a "vehicle". A vehicle that only they sit in, that has only their finger prints, kind of like a pair of pants. No one wants some one else's. Cars are not only transportation but their mobile personal space, their purse so to speak and their entertainment center.

The vehicle must be small, very small and larger cars would not be allowed which means specialized routes and probably an automated. They have to be automated which will get rid of many of todays pitfalls in driving. They would also bring transportation to younger and the more elderly.

Doesn't mean we do away with outside roads but I believe real reduction for the every day driver will be in small automated u nits with subdivisions or living centers built around them.

Car travel is only 1/2 or less of oil consumption so this is only 1 aspect and one contribution.

In the long run 55mpg cars may help the individual on a daily basis, but a nationwide energy solution is still so much bigger.

Semis!!!!!

I just put $50 worth of diesel into my truck, at $3.99 a gal...well you figure.
Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by JeffS:
I just put $50 worth of diesel into my truck, at $3.99 a gal...well you figure.
Jeff

Not even 1/2 full was it. I was just counting my cubic inch ratio. 4 cars with 400+ cubic inches (including the daily driver which is 7.3l Diesel).

Gary, You are exactly right, "And that raises the price of EVERYTHING especially that where the core products are transported several times." We are seeing as much as 35% increases in shipping over the last 45 days.

Gas prices are so high, as well as other 'utilities', because the value of our dollar is so low. Importing more barrels of oil at the current price will not make the price we pay go down. Our oil reserves are at a 15 year high. Our governments solution is to 'print more money' which only devalues our dollar further. It looks like we're boned, gentlemen.

Michael

The price of gasoline is still extraordinarily low if you consider how much actual "work" is produced by a gallon of the stuff.

Consider what it would cost in wages if you were to employ a small group of people (or animals, factoring in food & care) to pull around our sorry asses and all our crap for 20 miles to work and then 20 miles home, each day. I figure it would take six people about 5 hours to pull me and my crap-filled truck 20 miles—each way. At $5/hour (I'm a cheap fat-ass), that's $300 worth of labour, or about $8 worth of gasoline.

The real problem is going to come when (and there WILL eventually be a when) we do run out of oil and need to find some other way to produce plastics, fertilizers and all the other oil-based products we depend on every single day.

I'm just hoping it all runs dry AFTER I'm dead and gone (and that it's a long way off).

Some other input on the subject:
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

Dont let the so called experts fool you. There is TONS of oil still in the ground. China and Russia have just started to drill. Still tons under the ocean. And the Canadian tar sands have more oil than the Middle east ever had. There is a lot of oil still out there.

But because of greedy people in this world, we are made to believe that there are shortages so that they can get rich. The oil barrons get rich. The alternate energy people get rich. We get poor. It costs about $14 Canadian to product a barrel of oil from the tar sands. Right now Cat cannot product enough mining trucks for them to use mining the sand. They buy everything we can make and pay for them in a Month. That is a 3 million dollar truck!

Yes, fuel costs drive everything. And everything is getting expensive. Could we conserve a little? Yes we can. We could drive 30 mpg cars instead of 15 mpg SUVs. I do. We could live closer to work. I only live 10 miles away.

But the real truth of the matter is that there are people out there who want to keep getting richer. And they will not stop until we are in a depression and they loose everything. Think the price of gas is too high? Dont worry, in short order we will hit the worst depression since 1930. You wont need to buy gas then because you wont have a job to go to.

This country is 1 paycheck away from bankruptsy. With such easy credit we are spending more than we make. And getting more in debt every day. My only debt is my house. I could have my salary cut in half and still not be hurting. Just watch, when it starts, it will colapse fast. We could quickly become a 3rd world country.

Think of everything that has went up. Just in January, Coffee went up 20%. Food is going up like crazy. A pair of Docker Kakies are up 30% from a year ago. House prices have went so high, no one can afford them. Fruit, Milk, meat, all up. Some as high as 100%. When we can no longer afford Food, Shelter, and clothing, we are hurting. Why do you think that house sales are in the gutter? With people looking at buying a new house, realizing that they will have to drive further to work and pay more for power because they want a larger house, they realize that they just cant afford it. Housing is just the beginning.

Get ready, its all down hill from here.

quote:

We could quickly become a 3rd world country.

Actualy I think that is the whole point of all that is going on. The globalists want to level the playing field. In every country on earth, EXCEPT the United States, there are two kinds of people. There are a few rich people and a whole boat load of poor people. The US has that pesky middle class created by Henery Ford. That has to go away for the globalists to be happy. Can't have people being prosperous. They won't work hard enough if they are. Have to give them a real incentive to bust their behinds, don't ya know. Either work your fingers to the bone or starve.
I hate globalists.

quote:

Actualy I think that is the whole point of all that is going on. The globalists want to level the playing field. In every country on earth, EXCEPT the United States, there are two kinds of people. There are a few rich people and a whole boat load of poor people. The US has that pesky middle class created by Henery Ford. That has to go away for the globalists to be happy. Can't have people being prosperous. They won't work hard enough if they are. Have to give them a real incentive to bust their behinds, don't ya know. Either work your fingers to the bone or starve.
I hate globalists.

Put into words better than I have ever seen.

AAA+

Move to the front of the class, Sir

When Al Gore left office his net worth was reported to be around $1m. Last week he made a single investment to put some cash somewhere which was reportedly around $32M.

Not surprising with $175,000 fee every time he gives a speech, plus the $30 million in Google and $6 million in Apple stock options he received for being an advisor to them. Public service doesn't pay well, but post-public service sure does...

Find out where GW is 3 -4 years from now and his salary.... after taking care of his oil buddies .. he will be a billionarie sitting in some back office ..notice I say back office ..because he surely will not be giving speaches.

Ever notice why Texas and Florida are the only states with Unsual Bankruptcy Laws ..because GW and Jeb live there ?

Ron

quote:

And the Canadian tar sands have more oil than the Middle east ever had. There is a lot of oil still out there.

TRUE - just technology has not caught up yet and a lot of the oil is not recoverable or currently sub-economic. But my group is working to change that.

quote:

It costs about $14 Canadian to product a barrel of oil from the tar sands.

FALSE - It has never been that cheap to extract as the process is energy intensive, the 'bitumen' is heavy (low grade) oil and the work environment harsh. It takes mining and procesing ~2 cubic meters of dirt to produce each barrel of oil. Current capital cost is $120K/per annual barrel, add that to operating costs and it is a whopping $63 a barrel to produce. Returns are less than 10% at sustainable oil prices.

Put on top of that it's -45F in winter when labor productivity slows to ~40% and it's no easy $$. The Arabs still sit back and just pump it out the ground for $5 a barrel. With the US$ so cheap they now own a large proprtion of US business anyway.

Julian,
Not sure where your $63 came from, but I was told the $14 figure when I was at the tar sands. I believe that it was Syncrude where they told us the number. I cant remember which one as I visited three different mines that week and it was 4 years ago. One thing I do know is that with the price of Oil where it is at, they are buying CAT mining trucks as fast as they can be made and paying them off very quickly.

quote:

But my group is working to change that.

Why aren't you guys looking into turning coal into gasoline like the Germans did in WWII?? I am sure that is more economical now than pumping crude out of dirt. Coal, steam and pressure = premium pump gasoline.

Ive heard that the Canadian Pipe Line from alaska is shut down is that true ..because they are talking about replacing it ? And talking about the largest Labor shortage in US history since WW2.

Also months ago the news spoke of a large oil reserve below the Gulf of Mexico enough to supply 50% of the US.

My thoughts are the same and the value of the dollar today ....the US Government has not touched the Federal Reserve ... the deficit is borrowing money from other countries. Same with the oil. The US uses everyone else's and dosen't use up the reserve they have here.

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Also months ago the news spoke of a large oil reserve below the Gulf of Mexico enough to supply 50% of the US.
Ron

If I read it correctly, that oil field is 275 miles off the coast and 6 miles below the ocean floor. It's much more difficult, and costlier to pump that oil field.

Don't forget, it's all about the almighty dollar!

Michael

quote:

Not even 1/2 full was it. I was just counting my cubic inch ratio. 4 cars with 400+ cubic inches (including the daily driver which is 7.3l Diesel).

My Suburban has a 47 gallon tank.

quote:

The Arabs still sit back and just pump it out the ground for $5 a barrel. With the US$ so cheap they now own a large proprtion of US business anyway.

I was reading the other day that only two countries in the oil producing cartels DO NOT base the oil market in U.S. dollars, so... the so called weak dollar has no effect on the oil prices when the product is imported into this country. So EXXON's statement that the weak dollar is responsible for the 30% increase in gas prices just dont make sense to me.
Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by JeffS:
I was reading the other day that only two countries in the oil producing cartels DO NOT base the oil market in U.S. dollars, so... the so called weak dollar has no effect on the oil prices when the product is imported into this country. So EXXON's statement that the weak dollar is responsible for the 30% increase in gas prices just dont make sense to me.
Jeff

If a barrel of oil cost $100 worldwide and the Euro is getting stronger, it will cost them less at the pump because their currency is worth more. Conversely, it will cost us more at the pump because our dollar is worth less. I think that's what Exxon was trying to convey, those blood-sucking bastards. God forbid they should give up the slightest bit of their billion dollar bonuses!

Michael

$3.99 a gallon?

Hahahahahaaaa!!!!

Averaging around $8.26/gall in the uk at the 'mo.

Hence my company car averages 52mpg - and that's on diesel which is 10c per litre more.

The price of gas in Canada hasn't changed much over the last year (relative to the price of a barrel of oil). We are still around $1.05 per litre ($1 CDN = $1 US). Thats about $4.20 per US gallon.

"montecall296" is that 52 mpg for a US gallon or an Imperial gallon?

I recall that the "Big Oils" (Petro Canada, Shell, Imperial Oil) stated, when oil was around $20 US a barrel, for the Alberta oil sands to be profitable, oil would need to be at $50 US a barrel. Alberta is in an economic boom right now because of oil being over $100.00 a barrel

Meanwhile, our manufacturing jobs are being sucked to Mexico and China.