A simple but hoest question. In terms of budget, would turbo or supercharging be the cheapest and best method of extracting extra BHP from a stock engine. Any information greatly received.
Thanks.
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Motor to be used for?????
Short term cheap HP = NOS.
Long term depends on useage, but turbo or supercharging is cheaper in the long haul.
Short term cheap HP = NOS.
Long term depends on useage, but turbo or supercharging is cheaper in the long haul.
Bulldog,
Is this a Pantera application? What shape is the motor in? What motor, Cleveland or Windsor? What will be the uses of this vehicle? Would an overhaul be included in this build-up, or are you just planning to bolt parts onto the engine as is? Do you have a performance or power goal in mind?
your inquisitive friend on the DTBB, George
Is this a Pantera application? What shape is the motor in? What motor, Cleveland or Windsor? What will be the uses of this vehicle? Would an overhaul be included in this build-up, or are you just planning to bolt parts onto the engine as is? Do you have a performance or power goal in mind?
your inquisitive friend on the DTBB, George
The motor is a Cleveland and the engine has not yet been rebuilt. As I am eventually looking for some artistry in the engine bay, tuning would be a good idea. What excites me is having 400+BHP, without having to use it. I would not go down the' nos 'road.
Everyone has a criteria and can people see mine?
Everyone has a criteria and can people see mine?
Hey George,
I've often wondered about the same thing. I'm curious about a supercharger / intercooler application or even NOS (definately not turbos) for some short term street racing fun. I think you have my engine specs, so what do you think would be the safest way to get beyond the measly 522 HP without blowing it up on a regular basis?
I have a Vortech blower and an intercooler on my Mustang Cobra, but don't seem to be getting much out of such a low boost street setup.
I've often wondered about the same thing. I'm curious about a supercharger / intercooler application or even NOS (definately not turbos) for some short term street racing fun. I think you have my engine specs, so what do you think would be the safest way to get beyond the measly 522 HP without blowing it up on a regular basis?
I have a Vortech blower and an intercooler on my Mustang Cobra, but don't seem to be getting much out of such a low boost street setup.
I have always wondered the same thing. You see this outrageous engine with blowers, turbos, plumbing, and all sorts of things then you see "It makes 450hp!" Yea, so do most the stroker engines. I like the looks, but hp can be made more simply.
Gary
Gary
BD,
Your meaning of artistry in the engine bay is not real clear to me. But I'll do my best to give a quick answer.
Your power goal of 400 bhp could be easily achieved with head porting, a good exhaust system, ignition upgrade, possibly a better intake & carb, and a hydraulic roller cam. Turbos, blowers, etc are not needed.
David, on the other hand, aaaaaaahhhhhh! lol....
You've got 522 bhp, and yet you want more!
The turbos, even a pair of turbos, are less expensive than a single blower. That is the direct answer to bull dog's question.
But you must evaluate the whole project. There is very little room above the engine, no room left of the engine, and what room there is on the right hand side is mostly occupied by the alternator, the a/c compressor, the swirl tank & the overflow tank. There is little room on the front of the engine for an additional blower drive belt. The car was not designed to accomodate a blower or turbo.
Fred Terry designed a gorgeous blower system for his Pantera, actually incorporating 2 blowers. It fits under the engine screen and doesn't rob room from the luggage tub. But Mr Terry hand fabricated & engineered that system from scratch, roll your own, if you will. It entailed a conversion to fuel injection as well.
B&M once offered a kit to fit their blower onto the 351C, but it has gone out of production long ago. That kit was aimed at Mustangs & Torinos, not the Pantera. I have seen one picture of one such B&M blower installed on a Pantera, somehow the owner was able to make room for the blower drive belt. Perhaps by eliminating the a/c compressor.
Kirk Evans once designed a turbo system for the Pantera with the turbo perched above the motor & the carb on top of that. It was a tall system.
There are no kits available today, to install a blower or a turbo, you will be "rolling your own". What the vendors have settled upon as the best way to up the power of a Pantera, is the 7 liter Windsor crate motor.
Most often, owners installing blowers or turbos mount them behind the motor, which spoils the use of the luggage tub. The blowers will be driven off the flywheel or by a "jack shaft" that runs along side the motor.
Then there's the problem of where to install an intercooler that will allow a good stream of cool air to blow through it. Most often the intercooler ends up mounted where the a/c condensor was originally located. Let's not overlook the Pantera's cooling system, which also has limitations due to the small dimensions of the radiator.
Finally, it is usually advised to limit boost to about 7 psi unless the engine is modified to work with higher levels of boost. David, you have already experienced with your Mustang that 7 pounds of boost just wasn't the extra kick you were expecting.
If I personally decided I "must" have a blower in my Pantera, I would toss the Cleveland engine, buy a 8.2 deck Dart Windsor block with 4.125 bores, a fordged steel 3.25" stroker crank, and build a fuel injected 5.0 style motor with a KenneBell auto-rotor style blower. The smaller block would give me the additional room needed for the blower sitting on top of the motor.
If I decided I "must" have a turbo, I would copy the system designed by AK Miller back in the '70s, picture below.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
Your meaning of artistry in the engine bay is not real clear to me. But I'll do my best to give a quick answer.
Your power goal of 400 bhp could be easily achieved with head porting, a good exhaust system, ignition upgrade, possibly a better intake & carb, and a hydraulic roller cam. Turbos, blowers, etc are not needed.
David, on the other hand, aaaaaaahhhhhh! lol....
You've got 522 bhp, and yet you want more!
The turbos, even a pair of turbos, are less expensive than a single blower. That is the direct answer to bull dog's question.
But you must evaluate the whole project. There is very little room above the engine, no room left of the engine, and what room there is on the right hand side is mostly occupied by the alternator, the a/c compressor, the swirl tank & the overflow tank. There is little room on the front of the engine for an additional blower drive belt. The car was not designed to accomodate a blower or turbo.
Fred Terry designed a gorgeous blower system for his Pantera, actually incorporating 2 blowers. It fits under the engine screen and doesn't rob room from the luggage tub. But Mr Terry hand fabricated & engineered that system from scratch, roll your own, if you will. It entailed a conversion to fuel injection as well.
B&M once offered a kit to fit their blower onto the 351C, but it has gone out of production long ago. That kit was aimed at Mustangs & Torinos, not the Pantera. I have seen one picture of one such B&M blower installed on a Pantera, somehow the owner was able to make room for the blower drive belt. Perhaps by eliminating the a/c compressor.
Kirk Evans once designed a turbo system for the Pantera with the turbo perched above the motor & the carb on top of that. It was a tall system.
There are no kits available today, to install a blower or a turbo, you will be "rolling your own". What the vendors have settled upon as the best way to up the power of a Pantera, is the 7 liter Windsor crate motor.
Most often, owners installing blowers or turbos mount them behind the motor, which spoils the use of the luggage tub. The blowers will be driven off the flywheel or by a "jack shaft" that runs along side the motor.
Then there's the problem of where to install an intercooler that will allow a good stream of cool air to blow through it. Most often the intercooler ends up mounted where the a/c condensor was originally located. Let's not overlook the Pantera's cooling system, which also has limitations due to the small dimensions of the radiator.
Finally, it is usually advised to limit boost to about 7 psi unless the engine is modified to work with higher levels of boost. David, you have already experienced with your Mustang that 7 pounds of boost just wasn't the extra kick you were expecting.
If I personally decided I "must" have a blower in my Pantera, I would toss the Cleveland engine, buy a 8.2 deck Dart Windsor block with 4.125 bores, a fordged steel 3.25" stroker crank, and build a fuel injected 5.0 style motor with a KenneBell auto-rotor style blower. The smaller block would give me the additional room needed for the blower sitting on top of the motor.
If I decided I "must" have a turbo, I would copy the system designed by AK Miller back in the '70s, picture below.
Your friend on the DTBB, George
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george pence,
thanks for taking the time to reply and your advice will be gratefully made use of.
Thanks, Bulldog.
thanks for taking the time to reply and your advice will be gratefully made use of.
Thanks, Bulldog.
Yeah, George. Solid info - as always. Thanks.
Wait a moment, no one addressed the N2O part of the question!
Can a low level nitrous shot (75 - 150 HP) be used on a somewhat high compression engine, say 11.5 to 1?
Can a low level nitrous shot (75 - 150 HP) be used on a somewhat high compression engine, say 11.5 to 1?