Do you think the cost to restore a pantera raises the selling price enough to offset the cost of the restoration. Assuming the car is in good drivable condition with no major issues and the restoration is done professionally.
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I think a major factor is mileage.
I would be interested in your expected budget for restoring.
In my case,I disassembled my 35 years ago. I don't have any good ideal what its value would be now, but assume $20K.
the estimates I have for putting it back together have been from $50K up. Over the last couple years I have spent over $20K in preperations for restoring.
So I am looking at $90K just to have a driver.
BTW---
If any one is intersted in coming, gather the pieces and delievering me a driver, I would be intereset
In my case,I disassembled my 35 years ago. I don't have any good ideal what its value would be now, but assume $20K.
the estimates I have for putting it back together have been from $50K up. Over the last couple years I have spent over $20K in preperations for restoring.
So I am looking at $90K just to have a driver.
BTW---
If any one is intersted in coming, gather the pieces and delievering me a driver, I would be intereset
That depends on the degree of the restoration, and are you going back to all original? A good idea if you're looking to maximize value. I don't think "professionally" is necessarily a factor since you may learn more about originality with some research yourself. If you did find the "professional" that really did know all the nuts and bolts of originality, and the restoration was fairly extensive then no way would you get your money back.
Max money comes from the never been driven examples, and they have dropped lately. For what it's worth, the extensive modifications done to the majority of Pantera's hurts the overall value of the car.
Case in point. This car looks to be struggling to break $100K. With the rarity, and pristine condition it should be fetching $150K and would if it was any different car.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/De-Tom...Wz&item=391508246568
Mileage? Assume most have been tampered with.
Max money comes from the never been driven examples, and they have dropped lately. For what it's worth, the extensive modifications done to the majority of Pantera's hurts the overall value of the car.
Case in point. This car looks to be struggling to break $100K. With the rarity, and pristine condition it should be fetching $150K and would if it was any different car.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/De-Tom...Wz&item=391508246568
Mileage? Assume most have been tampered with.
I'm fortunate to have been in the passenger seat when this car was test driven and brought home from the dealer in 1973. It has an honest 25500 miles. I say professionally because I don't have the skill set to do the restoration that others on this site have demonstrated. I expect you are right that I would not get my money back on the car.
quote:Originally posted by RRS1:
Case in point. This car looks to be struggling to break $100K. With the rarity, and pristine condition it should be fetching $150K and would if it was any different car.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/De-Tom...Wz&item=391508246568
That car looks fantastic and is largely very original, but it's been sold so many times now that the past history is not as well hidden as the current sellers might prefer, which might be affecting the price. I believe the mileage is accurate based on the known history, but no mention is made of some extensive (and seemingly very well done) repairs to the rear of the car.
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OUCH! That explains it. Apparently more know about it than not. Still, it's not as if you can just go find another one better. Value should still be well over $100k IMO. If my garage wasn't full.....
I think there's a few factors you need to consider in evaluating the potential benefit if any.
1. How much have you bought the car for?
2. Condition of the car (modifications, rust, etc)
3. How much do you need to do to get it to how you want /need
4. History
5. Miles.
When I looked at buying mine I got it "cheap" enough to be able to get it fixed mechanically, on the road and registered then a full strip down, rust removal, re-spray (about 30K in that alone) in interior re-trim and at that time (12 months ago) it was a break even prospect which was acceptable for me. Car values have risen a little since then so all being equal, I should have some "equity" in the car once its all done.
It will also depend on how much of the work that needs to be done can be done by yourself to save $$'s.
1. How much have you bought the car for?
2. Condition of the car (modifications, rust, etc)
3. How much do you need to do to get it to how you want /need
4. History
5. Miles.
When I looked at buying mine I got it "cheap" enough to be able to get it fixed mechanically, on the road and registered then a full strip down, rust removal, re-spray (about 30K in that alone) in interior re-trim and at that time (12 months ago) it was a break even prospect which was acceptable for me. Car values have risen a little since then so all being equal, I should have some "equity" in the car once its all done.
It will also depend on how much of the work that needs to be done can be done by yourself to save $$'s.
I am faced with this dilemma myself.
I think you can restore a car for $40K or so if you do some of the work yourself.
No need to pay a shop to strip your car, call a glass guy, call a dustless blaster guy, etc.
I built my other car with a full rotisserie resto and it has won many awards, it won sponsors choice with no interior.
I just missed for best of show and the car that beat me was a $200K 41' willys (same guy painted both cars).
I won best paint with no back seat in the car.
My car is straight and perfect, no fun house images in the side of my car, your reflections stays proportional and flat as you walk down the car.
The guy who painted my car is well known and highly sought after and still, he did the bodywork, block sanded, painted, wet sanded and buffed my entire car, top and underside, shaved the firewall etc. for $12K.
I have a BBC with a BDS supercharger and the engine was $10,700 with a 24 month warranty, 600HP/650FT LBS.
I drive my pantera and it has 100K miles on it. I need to rebuild my uprights and fix/mod a few things.
So, I figure...
Paint $15K
408 stroker Cleveland $10K
New leather $5K
Chassis work (no brakes) $5K
Brakes/Suspension $10K
So, $50K over three or four years. Where will the market be then? $100K for a common pantera ? Can I get $50K now for a daily driver, 100K miles, cold a/c??... Not sure I would get that.
Check out this picture... It's the door of the black willys that beat me. Same painter painted my car.
I think you can restore a car for $40K or so if you do some of the work yourself.
No need to pay a shop to strip your car, call a glass guy, call a dustless blaster guy, etc.
I built my other car with a full rotisserie resto and it has won many awards, it won sponsors choice with no interior.
I just missed for best of show and the car that beat me was a $200K 41' willys (same guy painted both cars).
I won best paint with no back seat in the car.
My car is straight and perfect, no fun house images in the side of my car, your reflections stays proportional and flat as you walk down the car.
The guy who painted my car is well known and highly sought after and still, he did the bodywork, block sanded, painted, wet sanded and buffed my entire car, top and underside, shaved the firewall etc. for $12K.
I have a BBC with a BDS supercharger and the engine was $10,700 with a 24 month warranty, 600HP/650FT LBS.
I drive my pantera and it has 100K miles on it. I need to rebuild my uprights and fix/mod a few things.
So, I figure...
Paint $15K
408 stroker Cleveland $10K
New leather $5K
Chassis work (no brakes) $5K
Brakes/Suspension $10K
So, $50K over three or four years. Where will the market be then? $100K for a common pantera ? Can I get $50K now for a daily driver, 100K miles, cold a/c??... Not sure I would get that.
Check out this picture... It's the door of the black willys that beat me. Same painter painted my car.
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It's when I hear pricing like this I wish I was in the US. Australia is hideously expensive for anything. But what you say is correct - the more you do yourself as much as skill / sense of adventure will take you the more (providing your sense of adventure doesn't bring you unstuck) you should save on a rebuild.
That of course needs to be offset against time taken. What "time off the road" value is acceptable if you do it yourself vs getting others to do it faster...
The paint in that photo is astounding. I hope mine will be like that sometime soon!
That of course needs to be offset against time taken. What "time off the road" value is acceptable if you do it yourself vs getting others to do it faster...
The paint in that photo is astounding. I hope mine will be like that sometime soon!
Its far cheaper to buy a restored car than to pay to have one done.
Panteras are very easy cars to restore. Sub-contracting the body, paint and engine rebuild would allow most car guys to finish the rest. This would be cost effective if you have basic skills.
If you simply don't have any mechanical skills, then I would not start the job as you'll probably never finish it.
As far as value, I think we are seeing a slight correction in value of the top of the market while the mid level drivers are holding strong. Exception might be GT 5's etc..
I am seeing good show worthy cars going in the 80's (I will have one available soon). Good drivers in the 50's and 60's depending on condition.
I thinking if you have a driver, it would not pay to restore it if you are just looking to sell it after its complete.
Panteras are very easy cars to restore. Sub-contracting the body, paint and engine rebuild would allow most car guys to finish the rest. This would be cost effective if you have basic skills.
If you simply don't have any mechanical skills, then I would not start the job as you'll probably never finish it.
As far as value, I think we are seeing a slight correction in value of the top of the market while the mid level drivers are holding strong. Exception might be GT 5's etc..
I am seeing good show worthy cars going in the 80's (I will have one available soon). Good drivers in the 50's and 60's depending on condition.
I thinking if you have a driver, it would not pay to restore it if you are just looking to sell it after its complete.
quote:Originally posted by Quickitty:
...If you simply don't have any mechanical skills, then I would not start the job as you'll probably never finish it.....
you talking to me?
Don't forget the gearbox, CV shafts/spicer, clutch....
The real issue is:
What do you want from life,(to quote the song)
if you bought the car as an investment and you have equity in it sell...buy low sell high!
I for one am fairly capable of working on my own toys, I have a reasonable amount into my car, it is not like my 1999 mustang with $28,000 in it that it is worth $7,000 if I am lucky.
The real question is do you like the car? Do you drive the car? Do you like how it makes you feel?
Everything has a price in life... somebody tacks a 0 on what I think my car is worth it is gone... double my price forgetaboutit!
To dump another $3000 into my procharger 450hp Mustang... not worth the fun I will get out of it, now if it needs a trans and some brake work or a fender bender fix for $3000 yes.
Only you can make the call, someone can fight over my P car when I am dead... not for sale! Well maybe...Smile! Just my 2 cents.
What do you want from life,(to quote the song)
if you bought the car as an investment and you have equity in it sell...buy low sell high!
I for one am fairly capable of working on my own toys, I have a reasonable amount into my car, it is not like my 1999 mustang with $28,000 in it that it is worth $7,000 if I am lucky.
The real question is do you like the car? Do you drive the car? Do you like how it makes you feel?
Everything has a price in life... somebody tacks a 0 on what I think my car is worth it is gone... double my price forgetaboutit!
To dump another $3000 into my procharger 450hp Mustang... not worth the fun I will get out of it, now if it needs a trans and some brake work or a fender bender fix for $3000 yes.
Only you can make the call, someone can fight over my P car when I am dead... not for sale! Well maybe...Smile! Just my 2 cents.
I put 30K in an MGB not worth half when I am done. If I turn around and sell it as soon as it was done it would have been a mistake. However, what does an average car cost these days? When you drive it off the lot what's it worth 5 years latter?
My MG I have driven a lot over the last 10 years. It is very much a driver and I have certainly got the depreciation value a new car would have had from usage.
I did however decide if I would do another car I would like the value to be more in line with what I put into it. That is something a lot easier to do with a Pantera.
But if you use it.....AND if you can hang your hat on the work you did along the way......I can certainly justify more money then what the car would resell for......Franky, the price of these cars are shooting up.
I have often thought well, buy one finished and save the money. I have seen many of these "finished cars" have to be torn down and gone through with the same expense.
My MG I have driven a lot over the last 10 years. It is very much a driver and I have certainly got the depreciation value a new car would have had from usage.
I did however decide if I would do another car I would like the value to be more in line with what I put into it. That is something a lot easier to do with a Pantera.
But if you use it.....AND if you can hang your hat on the work you did along the way......I can certainly justify more money then what the car would resell for......Franky, the price of these cars are shooting up.
I have often thought well, buy one finished and save the money. I have seen many of these "finished cars" have to be torn down and gone through with the same expense.
I think some of the issues with the value vs restored or as is, is that it depends on what you consider a "Professional" restoration. In your case since you know the history of your car and I am assuming the way it is described it is largely unmodified then I think there is a value in doing a restoration and you may be safe to get your money out of it. Just painting a car and putting new parts on I don't consider a restoration. I believe that many count a proper "original" style restoration to be quite costly with much time and money put into proper oem equipment with specific casting dates and numbers. Top cars like this do seem to hold their value, however the problem with doing a Pantera this way is that there is no sanctioned or governed judging body on what is considered proper, so I don't beleive that there are "Professional Restoration" shops for Panteras. To my knowledge there is no SAAC like for Shleby's or Bloomington for Corvettes for Detomaso vehicles and when it comes to dealing with cars in those ranks details are everything. Which leads me to the example of the GTS that was provided earlier:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/De-Tom...Wz&item=391508246568
Now I am far from an expert (and don't claim to be one), but right off the bat I have questions about the originality of this car and some of it may be my lack of specifics and knowledge about GTS versions.
1st Why does it have a GHIA emblem on the bumper instead of the Detomaso cattle brand.
2nd Why doesn't it have the Detomaso script on the rear of the car?
3rd Do the GHIA emblems look placed a little too high on the front fenders? (Remember exact placement is necessary in a proper restoration.)
4th Are those Bosch window switches?
Now I could be on or off the mark on everyone of those questions and that is also why I mentioned them, because I would like to learn. So back to the point if any of those questions are legitimate and I was shopping for a Shelby, or a Corvette, or whatever you choose and they were being advertised as a "professional" restoration I may be backing away from the sale and questioning the knowledge of the shop they used. There are shops that make their living at correcting restorations that hard working enthusiasts paid top dollar for, only to find out that they have thrown their money away.
I should also clarify I am not snubbing any of our vendors or shops here that do excellent metal and body work etc. When referring to "professional restoration" I am describing OEM and concourse type work.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/De-Tom...Wz&item=391508246568
Now I am far from an expert (and don't claim to be one), but right off the bat I have questions about the originality of this car and some of it may be my lack of specifics and knowledge about GTS versions.
1st Why does it have a GHIA emblem on the bumper instead of the Detomaso cattle brand.
2nd Why doesn't it have the Detomaso script on the rear of the car?
3rd Do the GHIA emblems look placed a little too high on the front fenders? (Remember exact placement is necessary in a proper restoration.)
4th Are those Bosch window switches?
Now I could be on or off the mark on everyone of those questions and that is also why I mentioned them, because I would like to learn. So back to the point if any of those questions are legitimate and I was shopping for a Shelby, or a Corvette, or whatever you choose and they were being advertised as a "professional" restoration I may be backing away from the sale and questioning the knowledge of the shop they used. There are shops that make their living at correcting restorations that hard working enthusiasts paid top dollar for, only to find out that they have thrown their money away.
I should also clarify I am not snubbing any of our vendors or shops here that do excellent metal and body work etc. When referring to "professional restoration" I am describing OEM and concourse type work.
quote:Originally posted by Otis:
Now I am far from an expert (and don't claim to be one), but right off the bat I have questions about the originality of this car and some of it may be my lack of specifics and knowledge about GTS versions.
1st Why does it have a GHIA emblem on the bumper instead of the Detomaso cattle brand.
The GTS cars DID have a Ghia front emblem as part of the package instead of the standard "T" emblem.
quote:2nd Why doesn't it have the Detomaso script on the rear of the car?
Because the GTS cars didn't (if I remember correctly), but also maybe because the rear was crashed. What it is missing, however, is the GTS letters which should be on the right rear.
quote:3rd Do the GHIA emblems look placed a little too high on the front fenders? (Remember exact placement is necessary in a proper restoration.)
Could be, but it is quite possible that that's where De Tomaso felt like installing them that day.
quote:4th Are those Bosch window switches?
Good spotting. Yes, they are.
quote:Now I could be on or off the mark on everyone of those questions and that is also why I mentioned them, because I would like to learn. So back to the point if any of those questions are legitimate and I was shopping for a Shelby, or a Corvette, or whatever you choose and they were being advertised as a "professional" restoration I may be backing away from the sale and questioning the knowledge of the shop they used. There are shops that make their living at correcting restorations that hard working enthusiasts paid top dollar for, only to find out that they have thrown their money away.
Otis, you have a trained eye for detail and are right to be looking at this car with a critical eye because it is being presented (implied if not actually) as something it really isn't — an unmolested 750 mile car. Each of the flaws you found (and there are others) are a a bit of a red-flag. And that is why this forum is such a great resource for potential and current owners!
Mark