Water and/or methanol injection?

Interested in a pre-owned unit (virtually new?)

email me:
davidadin@mercydurango.org

Steve,

there are no BTUs in water, water cannot possibly add power. Methanol does contain BTUs, but not as many as gasoline.

Octane rating is not a measure of BTU content, but rather of anti-knock (pre-ignition prevention) qualities.

Water or methanol injection does not increase power, however, by decreasing knock, it allows your motor to produce the power it has the potential to make already.

Water or methanol injection is a band-aid approach to fix a problem with the design of a motor, bacause if cam, compression ratio, carb calibration and ignition calibration are optimized, there would be no need to install water/methanol injection to prevent knock.

One last point, methanol is very toxic, contact with small amounts can cause permanent nervous system damage or death.

your friend on the DTBB, George

It might help cool down the incoming air/fuel mixture making it slightly more dense. I did read in Hot Rod magazine that they were using post supercharger NOS to help cool it down. It was on a chebbie 454 crate motor they were dynoing. They were pulling just over 1000 HP that way. They were only using like a 175 hp NOS boost though.

I built an aluminum 215 ci Buick..It was bordrline on running hot. one day I had the hood off and it started raining, no air filter. I could feel the car make power and the temp went down... I got to thinking and bought a water injection system from JC Whitny. I came with pump, bottle, and shot water down the carb via winshield washer frog eye sprayer. The car stayed cool and did ok. It keeps the carbon off the piston tops too. The only drawback was when ideling is smelled like a steam bath, as it puffed out the tailpipes. george tahnks, I did not know about the toxic of Metanol

Water does a couple things. It cools the charge which makes it possible to up the power produced by the engine. This means you can increase your boost or compression before detonation. Second it slows the flame front speed, improving combustion completion. Third, water itselve expands going from liquid to a gas which is (where the cooling comes from). Aircraft have been using water injection for years. The Connies were known for it with the 3350's in the 40's. The 3350 were high performance radials which were more fickle then radials previous. It was how they got huge power out of them and still are with the 3350 and other engines at the air races.

Gary

One thing I always wondered about, 2-stroke engines run fuel/oil. If you were to run toward the lean side for fuel economy, could you also a few oz of 2-stroke oil?

I guess I didn't expect that it would add power, but if I were to bring the Pantera to a dyno, and run one pull on 116 octane race fuel, and a second pull on the methanol injection, would I see the same results?

I agree with you George, I realize this isn't the proper way to set up an engine, however my Pantera has an unknown, but high compression ratio. The previous owner must have had the availability of a good race fuel. Once I bring this car home to Minnesota, I will have no access to such fuel, short of buying it in barrels.

This appears as a cost effective alternative to engine rebuild or very expensive fuel.

Octane booster as an additive becomes costly as well, and from what I understand usually does not work well anyway.

I am confused to hear of the toxcicity of the methanol. The product that would be used in this system is a 33% mix of water and methanol. Any windshield washer fluid that is rated to -20 degrees. This is found at any K-Mart, Wal-Mart or any local gas station and is used by virtually everyone who operates a car from time to time. Quite often if you happen to live in a place that has inclement weather.

Are you confident of the danger? Possibly I could use some latex gloves though, as I am not to ignore such concerns.

As far as the steam bath at idle, that is corrected as well by a solenoid which activates the injection at a set RPM. Say 2000 or so. My engine did not start to ping until 4000 plus. So I believe that would be a safe level.

Thanks for all the input, I am open to all advice.

Steve

Steve,

I browsed the 'net for an msds sheet for window washer fluid. It was in pdf format, so I couldn't copy & paste. My scanner at work is also broken, so I can't scan the document. So I'll type an excerpt for you:

Methanol is a poisonous, narcotic chemical that can affect the body through inhalation, ingestion, and perhaps prolonged or repeated skin contact. Absorption by inhalation or ingestion is rapid and excretion is much slower than for ethyl alcohol, resulting in delayed effects or compounding effects by repeated exposure. It is important to be aware that after ingestion or inhalations, initial symptoms may be only that of mild intoxication, but may become severe after 12 to 18 hours. Toxic effects are exerted upon the central nervous system, especially the optic nerve. Ingestion can produce blindness; 100 - 120 ml can be fatal. Symptoms of overexposure include dizziness, visual impairment, nausea, respiratory failure, muscular incoordination and narcosis. Prolonged or repeated skin contact may cause dermatitis, erythema, scaling, and possibly systemic effects.

The msds also suggest wearing eye protection, gloves, apron & foot protection when handling the window washer fluid.

The first words on the back label of the bottle warns "Cannot be made nonpoisonous" and goes on to advise to use only in a well ventillated area, avoid contact with skin, and do not store it in the passenger compartment or the trunk.

George

I ran a "water injection" system for about 10 years, back in the last '70's and '80's. The way the system was designed to work: When the vacuum was below a set limit (adjustable), AND the RPM was above some limit (several fixed points) the windshield washer pump like pump would go on, pumping "it" thru the hoses and into the mouth of the carbs.

This was on a Datsun 510 (somewhat race prepped) with a high compression engine (10.5 - 11.0 : 1) using a "SSS" cam. This engine would run VERY strong, but under heavy load (up hill for example) the engine would begin to ping.
(Running on 92 Oct, plus the occasional booster). This engine was a 1600cc crank, 'pop-up' pistons 1800 closed chamber SSS head with opened ports generating a 200 - 220 PSI static compression and fed by dual carbs. Being "small" it would wind out to 6.5 - 7K (Um, daily - grin).

I first tried plain water. OK. Then I heard about rubbing alcohol and tried that. Finding the right mix of water/Isopropal took a while. I then tried methonal, which was an improvement. The optimal mix was about 50/50 water/meth mix. I bought the meth at a race shop. I was able to increase the timing, which increased power. I added a light on the dash to go on with the pump, so I could watch for results. If I kept the injector off, the car would ping under a known load, but when I flipped the switch, the ping went away immediately, and I could feel the power increase.
I drove this set-up during Driver's School at Sear's Point over several days. The running temp was a bit lower than without, power was up, (maybe 5-10%).
When I inspected the cylinders (by looking into the spark plug holes) The chamber was clean. I mean CLEAN!
I was concerned that the water/meth mix might take the oil off the cylinder wall, but I didn't consume oil, nor was there wear on the walls after I took it apart.
After 262,000 miles on this engine, I pulled it apart and I found that the engine was clean, with no excessive or undue wear.
I did find that my standard quality exhaust pipes rusted out a little faster.

I was also able to lean out the carbs (especially under WOT) slightly which improved normal driving gas mileage.
I believe that as the gas and "mix" hit the hot chamber, the water/meth would vaporize the gas into smaller droplets giving a more even burn, and more efficient burn.
I think I tried "Injectronic" and Sparco brands. I eventually made enough custom adjustments that it ran much better than either unit as delivered.
As for usage, I had a 1 gallon bottle, and the car had a ~14 gallon tank, under my sytle of driving both were empty about the same time. When at a track (Sear's or Laguna Seca) I would use 1 gallon of mix per 75 miles, or 4 times faster.
Due to leaning out, my overall mileage went up.
I don't feel there was any extra 'strain' or parts decay (other than the exhaust pipes).
I would consider such a system again, if available. For some reason I could no longer find such units in the mid/late 1990's.
With some tuning, and a willingness to mix a second fuel every tank, this worked well.
As for toxic ? Jeez I treated it like alcohol (Poor on the hand for that icy cold feeling! when I burned my hand on the exhaust.)
I would use it again.

Chuck,

Great input! Thanks for the benefit of your experience.

Michael

Anything is toxic if you drink enough.

(Beer test still in progress)

Snow Performance says: "You can run window washer fluid" . . . contact me off board for further comments.

I've heard this stuff is hard on the motor. I don't drink it, or bath in it, so I can't report on toxicity. The "winter formula" is what you want - more methanol. The Nazi studies show 50/50 is about the best mixture.

http://www.hiperfuels.com/index.cgi?PageToView=catalog&...&ExpandedDepts=81048

Thanks for all the input! I think I will most likely thry this.

Detom, that verifies that I will not be buying race fuel!!! MAN!

Pantera to hit the dyno tomorrow with 103 race fuel. Should get a full run and will see how it does. I will post numbers for anyone who may be interested.

Thanks
Steve

Cool Steve,

Good luck my friend!

George

Back from Dyno today.

We ran the Pantera with 103 octane race gas.

345.1 RWHP @ 5900 RPM

328.5 RWTQ @ 5050 RPM

Not quite what I was hoping for, but not bad for now.

Steve

Steve,

that's 430 bhp at the crank. That's a good number, especially to reach it at revs as low as 5900 rpm.

In the '70s & '80s 450 bhp was the target number for a max effort Cleveland street motor entailing a blue printed motor, head porting, solid lifter flat tappet camshaft, Holley strip dominator or Blue Thunder intake & Holley 750 carb. A motor like that would rev beyond 7000 rpm.

Your motor only needs a hydraulic roller cam & a new set of pistons to achieve a crankshaft bhp number closer to 480, as long as the carb, ignition & exhaust are up to the task.

Of course, your carb, ignition or exhaust may be holding your motor back now.

your friend on the DTBB, George