What RPM are most of you turning with the modded engines

I've got the stock block .030 over.

Flat tappet hyd. cam, with Ford roller rockers. Holley 670 with Performer.

Runs very clean and smooth to about 6200-6300, which is where I usually grab another gear.

But I have seen 6500 or so, and my head builder said they should be good for 7000.

Jason,

That's a lot of bhp, congrats!

But there are a couple of considerations to look at before asking that motor to make that kind of bhp regularly or to spin it any higher than 6500 rpm. As far as bearings are concerned, your motor needs a good, tough set of tri-metal bearings like the Clevite variety.

The oil system and the production iron block are the Clevo's weak links at high rpm and elevated power output.

The oil system need the lifter bores bushed, restricted, and set for tight clearances with the lifters, a good oil pan and a high pressure oil pump relief spring work in conjunction with the lifter bore mod to insure a constant supply of oil where its needed. The rod bearings is where the lack of oil shows up first.

To prevent the block from cracking, the engine needs a good blue print - indexing & align honing the block, and dynamically balancing the reciprocating assembly. A half fill with block grout wouldn't be a bad idea (because the thin cylinder walls have a propensity for cracking). And finally, run the best harmonic balancer you can purchase. Knowledgeable Cleveland racers will be your source there. A good balancer goes a long way towards preventing the webbing above the main bearing saddles from cracking. This issue is what separates the bull from reality in regards to dampeners. The guys who know are the racers who have cracked blocks in the past and through trial and error, or the advice of other racers, have found a balancer that works.

cowboy from hell

Lets see some photo's of the engine and turbo's.
Will

My drag car ran a 351 std stroke cleveland for years, now it was n/a but it did make 660 fw hp at 7500 rpm. The only dramas I had was with the 2 bolt, even with ARP studs the main caps would bounce around a bit. Mind you it was steel H beamed and was ext balanced with a fluid damper.
But yes balance it the best you can, as if it is smooth it will be nice to the block.
I now run a thick walled block, 1/2 grout filled and with steel 4 bolt caps and have had no dramas.

http://www.cveperformance.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=127

watch the capri burnout, if you want to hear what it sounded like !!
They are some of my cars !

Have a few Qs

quote:

I purchased the car with a built and stroked 377 with the Australian 2v heads ported.

So was it an engine purpose built for boost? Or was this a normally aspirated stroker? Do you know present static compression ratio and cam?

quote:

I have the car running on twin T66 turbo's, and we ran it at 10psi up to 6krpm, it isn't even thinking about laying down. It made 630hp to the tires on pump gas, and looked to hit 650 if I spun it to 6500.

How are you managing detonation risk. Intercooled? Alcohol?

quote:

I know the rods and pistons are up to the task,...

Aftermarket I take it as a result of stroker. Is it an offset ground stock crank with Chevy journals?

quote:

but am a little concerned about the main/rod bearings the most.

A well founded concern. Is this a solid cam with oil control mods? Restrictors? Bushed lifters? If you're making 630hp at the wheels with a stock Cleve block, that would suggest mid 700s at the flywheel. You didn't mention what the bore is sitting at but considering it was stroked, I'm guessing it's at least .030" over. Also didn't mention 2 or 4 bolt main but really doesn't matter much in a standard cleve block. IMO, if you intend to regularly tap that power, I think it's a matter of time before you grenade, especially if you keep pushing the rpm limit North. You will likely find that limit is cylinder wall or lower end failure. With that kind of investment in your build, a good bottom end and aftermarket block would be a wise investment. I understand the concept of "It's Never Enough", but 630hp at the wheels of a street car, especially Pantera, is fairly interesting. Might want to pause there and enjoy for a while before heading North on the power curve with that build.

You might want also to seek out Dave Doddek. He has been this itterative route on boost.

-My 2 cents.
Kelly

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:
Have a few Qs

quote:

I purchased the car with a built and stroked 377 with the Australian 2v heads ported.

So was it an engine purpose built for boost? Or was this a normally aspirated stroker? Do you know present static compression ratio and cam?

quote:

I have the car running on twin T66 turbo's, and we ran it at 10psi up to 6krpm, it isn't even thinking about laying down. It made 630hp to the tires on pump gas, and looked to hit 650 if I spun it to 6500.

How are you managing detonation risk. Intercooled? Alcohol?

quote:

I know the rods and pistons are up to the task,...

Aftermarket I take it as a result of stroker. Is it an offset ground stock crank with Chevy journals?

quote:

but am a little concerned about the main/rod bearings the most.

A well founded concern. Is this a solid cam with oil control mods? Restrictors? Bushed lifters? If you're making 630hp at the wheels with a stock Cleve block, that would suggest mid 700s at the flywheel. You didn't mention what the bore is sitting at but considering it was stroked, I'm guessing it's at least .030" over. Also didn't mention 2 or 4 bolt main but really doesn't matter much in a standard cleve block. IMO, if you intend to regularly tap that power, I think it's a matter of time before you grenade, especially if you keep pushing the rpm limit North. You will likely find that limit is cylinder wall or lower end failure. With that kind of investment in your build, a good bottom end and aftermarket block would be a wise investment. I understand the concept of "It's Never Enough", but 630hp at the wheels of a street car, especially Pantera, is fairly interesting. Might want to pause there and enjoy for a while heading North on the power curve with that build.

You might want to seek out Dave Doddek. He has been this itterative route on boost.

-My 2 cents.
Kelly

The engine is offset ground to 377, so I am guessing the chevy journal, but can't say for sure. It is a 4 bolt main block with all the oil mods, manley rods, J.E. pistons. The engine was built by E.J. Poss years ago (it's actually his old 71). I own a company called Professional EFI Systems, and my computer is running everything. It now has coil on plug, and direct port injection, staged methanol injection (no intercooler), and boost control. I have the ability to monitor knock as well, but haven't figured out quite where I want to put the knock sensors. I have had several single digit drag cars, and agree the car is plenty fast for the street, so I want to enjoy it for a while. We do alot of the high horsepower small engine cars with the staged methanol injection and it works great! The reason I was asking about the rpm limit is because as you can see in the attached Dyno sheet, it looks like it wants to go to about 7500!

quote:

Originally posted by 4NHOTROD:
Lets see some photo's of the engine and turbo's.
Will

I'll try and get some pictures taken later today or tomorrow and shrink them down to post!

I would suggest that you set the rev limiter at 7000 rpm. That is a magic number for a C. Over that you need to do a lot of things for it to live.

It will go all the way to 8000 but it gets very brittle.

Yep, I had heard of drag race motors going up to 9000 RPM, but then again, they sure don't last very long. I once reved mine to 7000 rpm, but that was just sitting there with the clutch in and it got away from me when I was trying to impress someone at a car show. That was almost three years ago and my car still seems to work ok. BUt that was only that one time. I blew up the original engine in the car, but it wasn't cause I was over reving, it was because I had hooked up the plug wires to the wrong plugs, and then didn't listen to George,s advice. My opinion is the Cleveland wants to rev, but it is too weak to take it. I think that is why most guys stroke them to get any power out of them and then keep the revs low. Maybe that new Cleveland block being built has more bullet proof rev capability???? That would be very cool if it could sustain 7500 RPM all day long. That would make an awesome Pantera engine. IMHO.

quote:

I own a company called Professional EFI Systems, and my computer is running everything. We do alot of the high horsepower small engine cars with the staged methanol injection and it works great! I have had several single digit drag cars, and agree the car is plenty fast for the street, so I want to enjoy it for a while.

Sounds like you've got it under control. If you have big tires, good compound, and like to come out hard, you might be starting to approach the limits of your ZF. 2nd gear takes a lot punishment but can give up the ghost in dramatic fashion. Occassional input shaft failure as welll on big power cars. The zf is a nice piece but if you break it, it'll get into your pocket a bit. Pantera's don't really hook all that well though, at least by drag car standards. That's why they never run better times than similar power/weight spec'd cars. Like anything else, how you drive it will dictate how well it stays together.

quote:

I have the ability to monitor knock as well, but haven't figured out quite where I want to put the knock sensors.

Have you had success with knock sensors on high power engines? I'd like to know how reliable you've found them to be.

Still think you should speak with Dave Doddek, Great Lakes Panteras. Think he shelled three or four stock block engines on his turbo car. He broke about everything on his way up the curve. Think first he dropped a valve. Then found the limit for stock rods. Then the block. His website is down at the moment.

Good luck.
Kelly

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:

quote:

I own a company called Professional EFI Systems, and my computer is running everything. We do alot of the high horsepower small engine cars with the staged methanol injection and it works great! I have had several single digit drag cars, and agree the car is plenty fast for the street, so I want to enjoy it for a while.

Sounds like you've got it under control. If you have big tires, good compound, and like to come out hard, you might be starting to approach the limits of your ZF. 2nd gear takes a lot punishment but can give up the ghost in dramatic fashion. Occassional input shaft failure as welll on big power cars. The zf is a nice piece but if you break it, it'll get into your pocket a bit. Pantera's don't really hook all that well though, at least by drag car standards. That's why they never run better times than similar power/weight spec'd cars. Like anything else, how you drive it will dictate how well it stays together.

quote:

I have the ability to monitor knock as well, but haven't figured out quite where I want to put the knock sensors.

Have you had success with knock sensors on high power engines? I'd like to know how reliable you've found them to be.

Still think you should speak with Dave Doddek, Great Lakes Panteras. Think he shelled three or four stock block engines on his turbo car. He broke about everything on his way up the curve. Think first he dropped a valve. Then found the limit for stock rods. Then the block. His website is down at the moment.

Good luck.
Kelly

One of the nice features our system has is that I can ramp power by speed, so it will help control wheel slip alot. I'm really not trying to set the world on fire in drag racing, but I do like to go out with the local car club and have fun with the Ferrari's, and Porsche's and what not. The knock control stuff works very well when setup properly. Our strategy is O.E. like strategy where you can set the knock window for each cylinders firing event, and setup the frequency knock will occur at based upon the bore of the cylinder. The main problem with the clevelands is there isn't an 'ideal' location for the knock sensors. I'll find something that will work good enough though, just need the time to tear into it a bit more.

I'll definately try and get ahold of Dave and get some input. I have enough fuel and turbo on the car to hit 1400, but I don't see the engine or the trans accepting that! Maybe someday when I'm ready to change the engine I'll see what it will take!

On the upper limits of RPM. When I built my first motor I talked to jags of drag racers. One in particular who ran a 460 in a Opel was great talking to a kid who was interested in a pro street car. But he told me the weak link in the Cleveland were there cylinder walls. Any overbore in a Cleveland will result in too thin a wall to survive high RPM sustainability.
As I have learned from here. The bottom end is important too. But for a drag racer that doesnt seem to be as important.
But without other mods I too agree that you need to stay under 7000 RPM to ensure your engine will live a long and prosperous life!!!
Jeff

What ECU are you running in this beast. Sounds like a fun project. Then again I like anyting turbo .

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraTurbo:
What ECU are you running in this beast. Sounds like a fun project. Then again I like anyting turbo .

Professional EFI Systems.

Sorry didnt catch that the first time. I thought you just ran a tuning/installation shop. Very cool stuff to be making your own ECU's. Found your site. Looks to be quite a good deal for an ECU with the options you have there. Too bad I didnt realize you were around when I bought my ECU. Have fun with your project.

Blaine

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraTurbo:
Sorry didnt catch that the first time. I thought you just ran a tuning/installation shop. Very cool stuff to be making your own ECU's. Found your site. Looks to be quite a good deal for an ECU with the options you have there. Too bad I didnt realize you were around when I bought my ECU. Have fun with your project.

Blaine

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Panterror:

quote:

I own a company called Professional EFI Systems, and my computer is running everything. We do alot of the high horsepower small engine cars with the staged methanol injection and it works great! I have had several single digit drag cars, and agree the car is plenty fast for the street, so I want to enjoy it for a while.

Sounds like you've got it under control. If you have big tires, good compound, and like to come out hard, you might be starting to approach the limits of your ZF. 2nd gear takes a lot punishment but can give up the ghost in dramatic fashion. Occassional input shaft failure as welll on big power cars. The zf is a nice piece but if you break it, it'll get into your pocket a bit. Pantera's don't really hook all that well though, at least by drag car standards. That's why they never run better times than similar power/weight spec'd cars. Like anything else, how you drive it will dictate how well it stays together.

quote:

I have the ability to monitor knock as well, but haven't figured out quite where I want to put the knock sensors.

Have you had success with knock sensors on high power engines? I'd like to know how reliable you've found them to be.

Still think you should speak with Dave Doddek, Great Lakes Panteras. Think he shelled three or four stock block engines on his turbo car. He broke about everything on his way up the curve. Think first he dropped a valve. Then found the limit for stock rods. Then the block. His website is down at the moment.

Good luck.
Kelly

I don't seem to be able to find this company. Where is Professional EFI Systems located and what is their website address? I have been thinking about some type of fuel injection system for my Pantera, but want to make the correct choice the first time.

I think this is their website. http://proefi.com/index.php .

Blaine

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraTurbo:
I think this is their website. http://proefi.com/index.php .

Blaine

Thanks, I just book marked it.