Headers

quote:

Originally posted by Fangio:

... Who makes the best headers for a fairly stock 1974 351 Cleveland ...

The question should be stated more specifically as either ...

(1) "Who makes the best headers for a 351C 4V mounted in a Pantera?" or
(2) "Who makes the best exhaust system for a 351C 4V mounted in a Pantera?"

Before we answer, I think you should clarify, are you interested in headers only (do you plan to fabricate your own intermediate pipes & mufflers) or are you interested in an entire exhaust system?

-G

Another question could be: Does any set of headers improve performance, if stock mufflers are still used?

Look at Wilkinsons's new stainless system. He fixed the issue of the stock mufflers killing 50hp.

They look and fit like stock.

If your engine is stock, you want to stay with something like this since you will not benefit from anything fancy(er).

Realize that any change also will change the sound of the exhaust, i.e., louder. The system is so short there isn't much you can do with that though.

I cut my collectors off and replaced them with a larger more open set up w/a very convenient ball collector and then built the "hooker/J bend" set up as listed in the exhaust midenginMike sticky. It was easy, cost effective and the car loved it... It's faster and/but a bit louder.

> I've done a lot of research on this board and Pat Mical's headers and those
> made by PIM seem to be the most recommended, but there is an approximately
> $900 difference between them.

Pat Mical's headers are meant more for high horsepower engines. They'd
be overkill and might even lose power on a stock engine due to the primary
pipe sizing. I've not tested the PIM system as they were not interested in
having it dyno tested when I inquired.

> Who makes the best headers for a fairly stock 1974 351 Cleveland?

In my dyno testing on a street performance 351C (not stock, makes 400 to
450 HP depending upon the heads and intake being tested), the Euro GTS
headers have been the best of the 4-into-1 style headers on iron 4V heads
but the mufflers are, by far, the choke point. The Euro GTS mufflers lost
50 HP compared to an efficient muffler like a Magnaflow and the stock ANSA's
are worse. The first set of Magnaflow's we tested were 3" single inlet/outlet
which were as good as open pipes. I also recently tested a pair of MagnaFlow
single 2.5" inlet, dual 2.5" outlet, polished stainless steel (p/n 14218,
5" thick, 8" wide, 14" case length, 20" overall) mufflers on my 569 HP street
403C and they were only down a few HP to open pipes.

I have a set of Wilkinson's new stainless headers and mufflers waiting to be
tested on a street 408C with TFS 2V heads (225cc CNC ported versions). While
Wilkinson's system is advertised as Euro GTS, the headers have a conventional
collector as opposed to the original Euro GTS headers which have a tri-y
collector. It's the mufflers that have the Euro GTS look. Initial impressions
are good but we'll see what the dyno says. The short block is assembled and
the heads just came in. They were flow benched yesterday and I should have the
cam designed today so the engine should be on the dyno in the relatively near
future.

Dan Jones

I forgot to list the Wilkinson header dimensions. The primaries range from 15 to 20 inches in length with an average of approximately 18 inches. The primary diameter is 1 3/4" and the collector is 5 1/2 inches long with 2 1/4 inches internal diameter.

Dan Jones

quote:

Originally posted by Grampa from Hell:

quote:

Originally posted by Fangio:

... Who makes the best headers for a fairly stock 1974 351 Cleveland ...

The question should be stated more specifically as either ...

(1) "Who makes the best headers for a 351C 4V mounted in a Pantera?" or
(2) "Who makes the best exhaust system for a 351C 4V mounted in a Pantera?"

Before we answer, I think you should clarify, are you interested in headers only (do you plan to fabricate your own intermediate pipes & mufflers) or are you interested in an entire exhaust system?

-G

I'm considering going either way, meaning that I have what can be considered big bore glasspacks on there now, with no-name headers. Given that the headers go into collectors that are restrictive, I am certain I want to change the headers and collectors, and am considering changing the glasspacks for something that has more sound insulation. At present, my Pantera is the loudest I've ever heard, but the acceleration leaves something to be desired and I want to get more HP out of the car without breaking the bank. At the same time, I want to keep the look of the big bore glasspacks but maybe switch them out for something that has a more refined sound than my car has now.

The car has a performance cam, and a holley 750 which I am considering changing as well, perhaps to a holley 750 double pumper.

To clarify since I just re-read the post by Daniel Jones.

I'm considering going with magnaflow mufflers, provided I can keep the big bore glasspack look. Photo of the rear of the car is attached.

Your Pantera is currently equipped with the Hall Big bore exhaust system. People either love that system, or they hate it, and for the same reason. Because its LOUD!

The original quad glass-pack system was the Mind Train exhaust system. That system was intuitively designed by Fred Matsumoto, the co-founder of Pantera International. It looked like the OEM system with just a casual glance, but with a closer look a person could see it was quad glass-packs. The system looked good, sounded just right, and made good power too. Used versions still sell for top dollar, if and when one comes up for sale. I wouldn't mind having a Mind Train system on my Pantera either.

The only off-the-shelf system currently available with the quad glass pack look is the PI Motorsports Big Throat system. The PI Motorsport headers are of the same design as the Mind Train headers, but the glass packs are something new. I've heard them on Jerry Sacket's Pantera and they aren't that loud, just a nice mellow deep tone. Jerry can sell an intermediate pipe to connect the headers and mufflers, although he doesn't advertise it. Their dual glass-pack muffler is made of polished stainless steel, its a very high quality item. If the PI Motorsport quad glass-packs aren't to your liking, you'll have to fabricate your own. Which a few guys have.

Regarding headers to go along with those quad glass-packs ... my preference with 4V heads would be to select one with 1-7/8" OD or 2" OD primary tubing. I like the GTS mini-tri-y header, because the tri-y design emphasizes lower rpm power. The PI Motorsport header is a good one too. Larry Stock sells headers, but I'm not familiar with them, I think his header tubing is usually on the small side. Pat Mical's is the best. I don't think anyone disputes that. But the best usually costs the most too. Adams Hudson has a set of Pat's headers on his 1974 L, with a relatively stock motor, and speaks very highly of the performance improvement they made. I'm not sure which mufflers Adams has on his Pantera. Hopefully he'll comment.

-G

we should add some sound clips to this thread. Exhaust is on my to-do list this winter.

The previous owner of my white Pantera installed a new Hall big bore system.
It isn't much louder than the ANSA mufflers that came on my red Pantera but I've
heard Hall big bore systems that were deafening. My guess is the Hall mufflers
use fiberglass packing which eventually burns up leaving little sound absorption.
Magnaflow uses stainless steel wool and warranties their mufflers. The PIM mufflers
are OBX Racing items (DB001K universal dual exhaust muffler, 2.5" single inlet,
dual outlet). The OBX website mentions a mixture of aluminized steel, stainless
and rock wool fiberglass in their construction so they may get louder over time.
Brent Stewart has the PIM-sourced OBX mufflers on his Pantera. He says they are
loud but he loves the looks and sound:

http://www.poca.com/index.php/...ery/?g2_itemId=26403

However, I have my suspicions about how well the OBX mufflers flow. If you look at
size of the minimum ID (the important dimension in this context) in this picture:

http://tinyurl.com/obxsmallid

you'll see it appears quite restrictive. When I was at PIM, they had a set
of the mufflers on display but I forgot to check the minimum internal ID.
You might try contacting Brent to see if he can measure the ID. I checked the
OBX website and they don't list the DB001K any longer but there are a couple
of other similar mufflers (e.g. 20-9999-DB1 Slant Cut Tips 2.5"In/2.75"x2 Out)
listed. Not sure if the DB001K have been superseded or are just not listed.

> I'm considering going with magnaflow mufflers, provided I can keep the big bore
> glasspack look. Photo of the rear of the car is attached.

The Magnaflow I'm running is an oval case with dual tips. I thought I saw
something similar to the OBX in their catalog but don't see it now. They
do have the round body mufflers if you want to make your own. Check
Kelly's (Panterror on this forum) 180 degree header sticky for sources for
stainless merges. I picked up a pair for my long tube tri-y header design
and they are nice.

All of the short 4-into-1 Pantera under car headers, including the Euro GTS
with tri-y collector, lose low and mid-range power compared to the Mustang
4-into-1 long tube 1 3/4" Hooker Competition headers we baselined them against
but the best of them are a pretty good match near power peak.

Dan Jones

Thanks for all the great responses. It is a lot to think about but I'm leaning towards the Mical headers, with magnaflow muffler while keeping the big bore look at the tips.

Will be at the Tutto Italiano show this weekend, and hope to meet some of you there. I'll be the guy in the EXTREMELY LOUD Pantera.

Thanks, again.

Most likely Pat Mical will be there too and you may place your order.

Well Fangio, Good luck.
I went threw the same process and bit on a out fit on the East Coast, I won't mention the name but I did pay around $1700.00. Well you would think at that price you would get the best and I probably did, But!
During shipping they were damaged, I am sure that UPS was partially to blame for the way they were handled, But they were packaged in a hurry with very little care in a small bicycle box, they bounced around and smacked the crap out of each other. there were dents the size of a golf ball and others like a small ball peen hammer had been taken to them with a lot of scratches. Also I might note the coating was not all that great considering the Price!
Well they were sent back and the owner attempted to massage out the large dent with a torch and reapplied the coating. The dent still showes with all the smaller dents and scratchs with a new coating. The coating this time was a little better but for the cost the coating is lacking.
Its been alittle over a year since all this happened and I am still pissed, I wrote this so you would Know and not get taken like I did.

At the very least physically look at what you are paying for before you buy.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel_Jones:
I have a set of Wilkinson's new stainless headers and mufflers waiting to be
tested on a street 408C with TFS 2V heads (225cc CNC ported versions). While
Wilkinson's system is advertised as Euro GTS, the headers have a conventional
collector as opposed to the original Euro GTS headers which have a tri-y
collector. It's the mufflers that have the Euro GTS look. Initial impressions
are good but we'll see what the dyno says. The short block is assembled and
the heads just came in. They were flow benched yesterday and I should have the
cam designed today so the engine should be on the dyno in the relatively near
future.

Daniel,

Have you had a chance to dyno the Wilkinson exhaust yet? I purchased a set but have not installed them yet. My car is currently stock with Hall Big Bore exhaust. I'm curious to see what the diffference will be. For one the Hall's are extremely loud and I'm looking foreward to toning that down.

Steve

> Have you had a chance to dyno the Wilkinson exhaust yet?

I have not. I've been conducting flight testing in Sweden, near the Arctic
Circle. Before I left, I dropped off the Wilkinson exhaust at the dyno.
Dave McLain currently has Kelly's Fontana on the dyno trying to diagnose a
fuel injection problem. I think the 408C with TFS heads is next in the queue once
that is resolved.

Dan Jones