A Pantera Registry?

Sounds good, I have a porsche 904 book that is like that, its in order by Vin #. Its really cool, even if there's no data / photos it lists the cars Vin # and last known info, then shows it "missing".

I had thought about the book form but I think right now just being have a central place for people to send info on their car or look up data on their car or others cars would be fun...and maybe useful

ParaPantera also has an online registry.
Forget the link at the moment.

Josh

Just follow the link below, the Excel format is most up to date. For those of you who have not done so but wish to add to the registry, feel free to download the blank form and E-mail it back.

Thank you, Ron

I'm really surprised no-one has done this yet?
It's deff. a good idea and would be an excellant refferance for owners and people looking for information on all the possible alterations and stock options these cars have.
I am a member of The 99 VR4 Registry, so far we have accounted for 117 of the 281 Twin Turbo VR4's built in the last year of production.
We even have a couple of cars that were totaled and have their vin. # listed as well.
I would deff. be willing to list my car and it's modifications on a registry site.
If I had any website exp. at all I would vollunteer to help, instead I'll just have to say thanks in advance for your efforts.
Jeff

Greg
Have you been to this web site yet?
I think it's what your looking for.
Dennis

http://www.qv500.com/detomasoregistry.php

quote:

Originally posted by fourdoorbronko:
I'm really surprised no-one has done this yet?
It's deff. a good idea and would be an excellant refferance for owners and people looking for information on all the possible alterations and stock options these cars have.
I am a member of The 99 VR4 Registry, so far we have accounted for 117 of the 281 Twin Turbo VR4's built in the last year of production.
We even have a couple of cars that were totaled and have their vin. # listed as well.
I would deff. be willing to list my car and it's modifications on a registry site.
If I had any website exp. at all I would vollunteer to help, instead I'll just have to say thanks in advance for your efforts.
Jeff

Jeff, did you find out what was done with the gearing in your car yet?
I'll bet you a nickle that Dennis did at least a ring and pinion.
Incidentally, it isn't too uncommon for the big port engines to be "a little flat" under 4,000rpm.
They were "tuned" as high rpm race engines after all.
Mine is a little better with the A3 heads but still isn't great off of idle.

Greg,I think that would be great.I was just wondering where #2968 started.Anyway of how to find that info on the web?Thanks JW

quote:

Greg,I think that would be great.I was just wondering where #2968 started.Anyway of how to find that info on the web?Thanks JW

The site is not up yet but should be in a month or two. I will keep you posted.

What I hope is different about this site is that it will combine photos, videos, written histories, car specs, and any original documentation for each car. I will rely a lot on owners and previous owners to submit information, but also I am (I think) willing to devote a good amount of time digging up cars and information from other sources such as eBay, auction records and other registries.

This brings me to another question. Does anyone know how many cars are left vs. produced?

Greg:

You should know that Kjell Jansson and I have been working on a collection of information about post-1980 Panteras similar to the one you are describing. It is a list, organized by chassis number, that contains photos of each car (often as many as 25 pictures or more), model year, model, owner name and location. We also gather any other information we can about each car, including previous owners, special factory options, owner modifications, and so on. So far we have over 80 complete listings with photos, and many more incomplete ones.

If you decide to go ahead with your project, please contact Kjell or me so we can avoid a duplication of effort. You can reach me at the following e-mail address (slightly modified to throw off the spammers):

phavlik[at]pris[dot]ca

- Peter

Great, I will let you know when the site is up.

Greg

We don't have a real Pantera Registry. We NEED a real Pantera registry. Not just something for entertainment. Not something that takes 6 months to update. 100% accuracy is not 100% necessary. Here is my point.

The Cobra's have a real registry. They track ownership of cars for people willing to participate. It IS the registry to authenticate ownership. If some one comes up with a car with your serial number it can be authenticated. It protects legitimate owners. There are even dual serial number issues with Cobra owners. By being in the registry, it authenticates the existence of both.

I think this is something everyone should be fighting for; not a half ass job for entertainment purposes. I also believe it needs the backing of one of the major Pantera Organizations as "THE REGISTRY".

Gary

I agree with Gary, a serious registry should be operated by an organization, rather than privately. A serious registry may be beneficial to the Pantera hobby, or may not. Has anybody run into a situation where the lack of an official registry has created hardship for them?

I've thought about offering such a service via PI, but because there are several "registries" being operated by private individuals, I didn't want to step on any toes, muscle in on someones territory, so I've kept quiet.

PI can do this if everyone, including those who already have registries, are willing to work together. A question for everyone to express their opinion on is whether or not the effort would have a benefit.

your friend on the DTBB

George I think a “serious” registry will step on some toes to begin with but I believe it is necessary. I believe if done right all bad feelings will be forgotten and the benefits will out weigh the bad.

I can tell you how a registry would REAALLY help. When I had 1280 inspected by a local Sheriff, it scared me. First when it was imported, it lost the full vin “TH.....1280” and became VIN “1280” In doing so it was required the dash tag be removed and a replacement authentic DeTomaso tag on the foot box. Well the Sherrif looked at the missing tag on the dash (with holes still there) and the tag on the pedal box. He said hang on. He came back after talking to dispatch “We show 1280 as a 1985 Pantera Stolen in 1992!”. I was green!

I took him into the garage and showed him 1905. It had no dash tag (although it probably should have). It had a pedal box number. HE SIGNED THE PAPER WORK “this is obviously not a 1985!). All I can say is I needed heart medication!

Latter I talked to some one about the officer. He said “Did he ask you if it was stolen?” I said, as a mater of fact he did! He said he plays that trick on everyone! %^&*(*^&%$

These things have legitimate tag issues. A note legitimate registry could save our can should something like this really happen!

small towns are great that have there own police force of about,10 ofc.wait and get a female ofc.you could show her numbers on your tires and she wouldn't know the differance,or have a friend in law enforcement,just sign here.

Gary:

I have been busting my balls with this for a year now. How much work have you done?

It's real easy to denigrate the work of others by calling it a "half ass job" before you have even seen it. It's a little harder to actually get off your butt and do something about it. Of course we need a proper registry; you don't get any points for originality there. People have been discussing the need for at least as long as I have been involved. Bill Van Ess actually published one but, reportedly because it took many years for him to make his money back, he may be reluctant to try again.

I don’t think a proper registry will step on anyone’s toes. Believe me, this has been so much work that I sure as hell wouldn’t be doing it if there was an alternative. I assure you my feelings will not be hurt if someone else takes this on. I don’t know how Bill, Kjell, Ron, or QV 500 feel about this, but I would happily turn over all my work to a “legitimate” registry and go drive my car instead of wasting my time staring into the computer or arguing with people like you about it.

I'll be looking forward to your putting your money where your mouth is and picking up the torch from Bill. If PI or POCA take it on, then I trust you will be donating the innumerable volunteer hours that the project will take. Otherwise and in the meantime, I suggest a little more respect for those of us actually doing something is called for.

- Peter

A registry interests me, because I'm always curious about the production history of these cars. And most owners are curious about the past history of their personal Pantera. While important to you & me, these are not the reasons an official registry is formed.

The purpose of an "official" or "recognized" or "serious" registry is to authenticate vehicles, which indicates the vehicles have collector value. In other words, its about MONEY.

At this point the only deTomaso vehicles that have collector value like that are the race cars. If this community of owners wants to get serious about the collectibility of these cars, then a registry is the first step.

As a director of PI, I can commit PI to assisting in this effort, if the club at large believes this is necessary. I know Mats Gorski would agree.

On the other hand, so many Panteras are modified, the collectibility issue is very muddled to begin with. I believe the next generation of Pantera owners will also be drawn to this marque because it is acceptible to modify the Pantera. I'm talking about the generation that has grown up modifying the sport compacts. These younger folks are serious auto modifiers. So having the Pantera becoming a serious collector car may just not be in the cards. I know there are a few who would like the Pantera to become a collector car, but I don't see any Pantera club, in the US or Europe, currently moving in that direction. I can only surmise that it is not important to the membership at large.

Ben, Peter, Ron, Greg, your efforts are not trivial. Putting together something like a registry takes many hours from your lives, and some financial investment as well. You wouldn't do it if you didn't believe what you are doing had value. And since you are not payed to do it, you obviously are doing it because you love the marque. So I'll take this moment to write that you are all outstanding deTomaso enthusiasts, and I thank you for your contributions to our hobby.

Thoughts anybody?

I just filled out information for Ron's registery while you guys were sitting here blabbing about it. It would be nice if individual owners could update the database online. Like micro-soft access or something.

quote:

I think this is something everyone should be fighting for; not a half ass job for entertainment purposes. I also believe it needs the backing of one of the major Pantera Organizations as "THE REGISTRY".

Wow, I think we struck a nerve on both sides of this discussion.

I have this to say on the subject the neither “major Pantera Organizations” nor private individuals have produced a "legitimate registry" therefore I am in agreement that one is needed. I do not however believe that it is absolutely necessary for it to be operated by a Pantera organization. It just needs to be developed and maintained properly. I will have my site up and it will continue to improve day by day as "legitimate owners" provide "legitimate information". If the owners don't embrace it, then it won't work regardless who runs it! I have the resources, and the desire to make it work, but without cooperation from owners and former owners mine will fail as well.

Now what constitutes a legitimate registry anyway? I think it is the one that succeeds. Only time will tell on that one.

quote:

It would be nice if individual owners could update the database online. Like micro-soft access or something.

DeTom,

That is exactly hat had in mind. One that owners maintain and the site owner provides the Data base, format, and filters the BS

Greg

Greg, the difference is this:

when a dispute arises between two owners regarding the authenticity of a vehicle, the owner of a registry may be called as a witness in court to settle the dispute. This is bound to happen when money is involved. Therefore there must be some level of verification of the data. The court may also ask what qualifies the registries owner to operate the registry. POCA & PI are organizations authorized by the deTomaso factory.

your friend on the DTBB

George:

In answer to your question about the benefit of a formal registry if one were to be established and maintained by PI, I agree with your answer that it is conventionally about enhancing the collector value of our cars. My own trajectory in all this led me to consider this benefit but, like you, also to some other less tangible ones.

In trying to find out more about my GT5, I discovered that no one (including the factory) really knew how many post-1980 Panteras were built in any one year and in what models. I found there was no way to answer even the simple question of whether my car was the last built. This led me to consider the point that other marques have registries that may have some connection to the market value of their cars. It has been argued before elsewhere on the PI BB that being able to demonstrate provenance and document remaining examples of a marque and model help improve its desirability.

Now, from a purely personal perspective, having a collection of photos of, and information about, Panteras similar to my own is both useful and enjoyable. It is useful because I can find out, just for one example, whether the unusual mirrors mounted in an unusual place on my car are stock. Having examined hundreds of photos of other cars, I can now show that there are a number of examples with identical mirrors, and that both the type of mirror and mounting location seemed to vary seemingly at the whim of those workers at DeTomaso/Vignale building any particular car.

I also enjoy looking at the photos and comparing what others have done with their cars, seeing the different variations from the factory, and getting an appreciation for the geographic dispersion of the owners.

Ideally, a registry could also facilitate owners contacting each other and building the fellowship that makes owning a DeTomaso so different from most other makes.

Just as an afterthought, I am wondering how “official” or "recognized" a registry would be without the factory endorsing it?

- Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Peter H:
Gary:

I have been busting my balls with this for a year now. How much work have you done?

It's real easy to denigrate the work of others by calling it a "half ass job" before you have even seen it. It's a little harder to actually get off your butt and do something about it. Of course we need a proper registry; you don't get any points for originality there. People have been discussing the need for at least as long as I have been involved. Bill Van Ess actually published one but, reportedly because it took many years for him to make his money back, he may be reluctant to try again.

I don’t think a proper registry will step on anyone’s toes. Believe me, this has been so much work that I sure as hell wouldn’t be doing it if there was an alternative. I assure you my feelings will not be hurt if someone else takes this on. I don’t know how Bill, Kjell, Ron, or QV 500 feel about this, but I would happily turn over all my work to a “legitimate” registry and go drive my car instead of wasting my time staring into the computer or arguing with people like you about it.

I'll be looking forward to your putting your money where your mouth is and picking up the torch from Bill. If PI or POCA take it on, then I trust you will be donating the innumerable volunteer hours that the project will take. Otherwise and in the meantime, I suggest a little more respect for those of us actually doing something is called for.

- Peter

Peter, I don’t know how you can think I was referring to your registry. There are at least 5 locations right now where you can register a Pantera and not one is the “Official Registry”. How much work have I don? I have worked my ass of on other things. I am no couch potato although I am not spending my life creating a registry. I make no apologies because if you thought I was coming down on you I was not. I am speaking in terms of needed registry in general. You can have the most awesome registry out there but if it is just “one more registry” it won’t help.

1. As George said it needs to be backed by at least one of the major Pantera organizations because it has to become the “Authority”

2. It has to be as permanent as POCA or PI.

3. I believe the care taker has to Validate the Vins with a way the VIN “Owner” can update as much information about the car as he can and as he likes.

4. If the car is sold, the update is locked only to be unlocked and accessed by the new owner.

It is not important that if the owner says it originally was yellow as is the history of those who owned it. If I register my 1280 and say “It was originally blue” and I sell the car. The new owner logs into the registry and continues the “Blog” on 1280 says “First owner thought it was blue. After research from the factory shows it was silver”. The registry owner won’t be held accountable for the details because it is the owner who supplies the info.

5. The registry owner can still publish info about cars at will; even under registry owners portions but should be strictly limited to known facts.

Some one is selling a 1280 on Ebay everyone can say “Hey guys, some one is trying to sell Gary’s car again”.

6. The software has to work. It has to be easily updateable by those authorized to update info on their car.

7. Should be available in published form.

This is my view.

Gary

quote:

Originally posted by Peter H:
...Just as an afterthought, I am wondering how “official” or "recognized" a registry would be without the factory endorsing it?...

Is there a major registry that exists without the recognition of the manufacturer? I can't answer that. Every one I can think of, does have recognition, but I'm not all knowing.

I agree with your motivation for building your directory, I'm obsessively curious about the variations & build history of these cars myself. What you are doing is BITCHEN. Please don't be discouraged by what I've written. No, not at all. That was not my intention. I truly admire your efforts.

I don't believe a directory starts a car down the path of becoming collectible. I think the opposite is true. Historically, as a marque became collectible, the need for a directory became mandatory to prevent fraud. This is certainly the case with the Shelby autos.

But again, that is not the only reason to have a directory, I applaud the idea of you gentlemen serving as historians in a way.

your friend on the DTBB

You know Peter, I would love to see your directory someday, I'm sure there is much I would learn. Keep me in mind, OK?

quote:

his brings me to another question. Does anyone know how many cars are left vs. produced?

Thats a very good question.I have been asked that many times by onlookers and friends.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraSeeker:
I may be getting into more than I can handle but I am going to give it a try. Last week I bought the rights to panteraregistry.com and detomasoregistry.com (don't check yet it won't be up for at least a month)

I am going to put together a Pantera registry. This site would collect all the available records, pictures and witten history of Panteras from owners that I can find. It will all be sorted by the cars 4 digit #. This database will give owners and enthusiasts the ability to research any cars history or just for their viewing enjoyment.

Has this been tried before?
Am I nuts for trying it?

Let me know you opinions Please... not that I thought you wold hold them back anyway...

Thanks
Greg

Ok here is what I have learned, correct me if I am wrong.

1) Pantera owners want a good and complete registry.
2) Some Pantera owners will not participate if it is not backed by a major pantera organization (no matter how good or complete)
3) The major Pantera organizations will not recognize a private registry if it is not from an authorized de Tomaso organization.(no matter how good or complete)
4) It probably will be a complete waste of my time and money.

Ok, what can I say.....WOW...... I asked for it.

Greg

Greg:

The limitation of a registry reliant on the initiative of owners to register is that most will simply not get around to it.

For example, Ben Tyer at QV 500 maintains such a system but, of the post-1980 cars, there are only two GT5, nine GT5-S, two GTS, and eight 90 Si Panteras listed. For another example, Ron’s Pantera Page has only two post-1980 cars listed, and he is not even collecting photos! This is why I agree with George & Gary that a recognized, endorsed registry is important; owners are far more likely to make the effort to sign up.

That said, in the absence of a recognized, endorsed registry, I would encourage you to continue with your initiative and hope it works better than the others already out there. At the end of the day, it could provide a great head start for an official registry if ever we see one.

I have more than 80 post-1980 Panteras in my collection (which is growing daily), but I achieved this by innumerable hours sending e-mails all over the world, mining web sites and hounding both clubs as well as individual owners. Based on this experience, I doubt a registry without a supporting highly pro-active research effort could capture a substantial portion of the remaining cars.

It has been a huge job for me to get the number of cars I have out of a production run of about 500 post-1980 cars, and I am nowhere near finished. Now imagine doing it for the more than 6,000 cars built before 1980!

I would not underestimate the work involved.

- Peter

PS: George, if you shoot me a private e-mail with your mailing address, I would be happy to send you a CD with my collection on it.

Peter,

I agree, and I will continue. I am however surprised by the negative response by some "owners" and "organizations". To bad, I guess that just solidifies the reason why there is no central resource.

Greg

I personally was involved with the SAAC Registry since 1978.
It is a slow, tedious project and still only something like 50% of the Shelbys are accounted for.
I wouldn't expect a lot of a Pantera Registry. It was attempted before by Bill VanEss. That is not to suggest that it was not a worthwhile effort or shouldn't be attempted again.
How you will reach interested owners is the question.
How you will persuade uniterested owners to participate is another.
I wish anyone interested in attempting this task the very best of luck. I certainly would cooperate in any way I could.

Doug,

I think you are exactly right, owners are the key. My plan is to develop software routine to do continual searches on the web using keywords pulling all matches and partial matches. At first I would then have to validate all results. But once the initial search is done repeat web listing would not appear for me to validate, thus reducing the amount of work on my end long term. But this method would capture a fairly high percentage of sell/purchase transactions as well as a very high percentage of personal web/home pages listing Pantera information.

Owners and former owners would have to be authenticated and given a user ID and password allowing them to post information (screened of course) to their cars page.

But it sounds like this may be a futile effort. I am just not smart enough to just let it go.

I think that is a good idea.
I had many disagreements with the SAAC Registry plan.
After 20 + years of no pay but "corporate profits", the "personal abuse" became an issue for me.
Working for free to pay corporate salaries is personal abuse to me.
Panteras are going to be hard because there isn't much new information to be discovered like there was with the Shelbys.
Perhaps you can remain motivated by the seemingly endless individuality that we all find with these cars rather then the factory differences?
What's going to happen to the web page when you no longer wish to or can't carry it?
A Registry is probably going to be needed to see these cars reach any kind of signifigant value in the future.
There value now is not trivial, just dishartening.

I guess it's time a pony up a reply. First, I would never call my "little" registry official, I just felt someone had to do something about aquiring data about these cars. I will admit I like the level of detail on my websites form (bumper style, dash style, etc) so the running production changes can be seen. As far as stepping on toes, geeze man! I put it on the web for download so who ever wants to beg, borrow, or steal the info is more than welcome! Second, I would be more than happy to include photos. I experimented with this and found that the file size soon grows to several megs!(even if I downsized the photos to where they were useless). Keeping in mind that not all people have broad band connections I kept it simple.

Car owners, great point, if they do not take the time to add to a registry (which is easy)it makes for a less accurate database. I often get requests for info about their car since it is not on the list, but neglect to take the time to add what they know!

Again, as far as stepping on toes, you won't hear me scream. My whole point in doing what I have done is that someday, someone will use the information for an "official" registry.

As a posted over a year ago, this information is a free will, do with it as you please by any organization data set. to those reading this post, until we have an official registry in place, submit your info or quite complaining (I'm doing this for free you know).

As for pictures, take a vote. I will gladly add all photos submitted with registration.

Ron

Ron, your site was one of the inspirations for my pursuit of the registry idea. I appreciate your efforts!

Since PI has been so gracious to provide us enthusiats a place to hang, perhaps they might consider giving a home to the registry and title it the Detomaso PI Registry?
Perhaps it is time?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraSeeker:
...Pantera owners want a good and complete registry...

some owners do, some owners don't. the registries of past & present have had limited cooperation, your blanket statement is inaccurate.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraSeeker:
...Some Pantera owners will not participate if it is not backed by a major pantera organization (no matter how good or complete)...

true. furthermore some owners will not participate, period! regardless if an organization backs the effort or not!

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraSeeker:
...The major Pantera organizations will not recognize a private registry if it is not from an authorized de Tomaso organization.(no matter how good or complete)...

First, I do not speak for POCA. Second, what do you infer by the word "recognize". I've tried to be supportive here. I don't want to discourage you. I "recognize" the work of Peter, Ron, Ben & others as an admirable investment in effort by their authors, suitable for informative purposes only. These current registries are not validated information suitable for authenticating automobiles.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraSeeker:
...It probably will be a complete waste of my time and money...

Oh Greg, I read discouragement in that statement.

If I have offended you in any way I apologize. I truly put an effort into being supportive. My advice: if your heart is in this, then go for it! Screw me or anyone else that discourages you. Do it for yourself, do it because you love Panteras, do it for your fellow Pantera owners. I'll be the first in line to provide you data.

quote:

Originally posted by ParaPantera:
... I just felt someone had to do something about aquiring data about these cars...

Ron, your efforts are appreciated my friend!

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Since PI has been so gracious to provide us enthusiats a place to hang, perhaps they might consider giving a home to the registry and title it the Detomaso PI Registry?
Perhaps it is time?

ahem.....Doug, my previous statements

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
...I've thought about offering such a service via PI, but because there are several "registries" being operated by private individuals, I didn't want to step on any toes, muscle in on someones territory, so I've kept quiet.

PI can do this if everyone, including those who already have registries, are willing to work together. A question for everyone to express their opinion on is whether or not the effort would have a benefit...

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
...As a director of PI, I can commit PI to assisting in this effort, if the club at large believes this is necessary. I know Mats Gorski would agree...

I say we vote on it. Are we as a group ready to initiate an Official registry?