Carbon parts

I checked out the site and couldn't find anything for a Pantera but I'd buy one of those bicycles. The other sports cars look fantastic though. Since I can't read German, is there a place that sells the bicycle pictured on the website in the US? Thanks

korina, If you click on "produkte" it gives you a drop down menu. On the menu it lists CAT Cheetah. Click on it. A page comes up. Click on the picture of the bike on the left and it opens a web page for the bike. Complete they run 8500 Swiss francs. By my calculatin thats $6700.

quote:

Originally posted by korina:
I checked out the site and couldn't find anything for a Pantera but I'd buy one of those bicycles. The other sports cars look fantastic though. Since I can't read German, is there a place that sells the bicycle pictured on the website in the US? Thanks

Korina, your right there are no Pantera parts on our site for now. The site just can give you an idea what we already build.

The Sports Car Monteverdi Hai 650 F1 is 90% out of carbon.

You can buy the Cat Cheetah on http://www.catbikes.ch/.
Feel free to go in contact with my stepmother Dane, she can give you all the information’s you need.

The Sports Car Monteverdi Hai 650 F1 is 90% out of carbon.

Is tis car an exercise in what you can do or is it a fully functioning car worth watching out for? How much does this carbon exotica cost?

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Originally posted by bulldog:
Is tis car an exercise in what you can do or is it a fully functioning car worth watching out for? How much does this carbon exotica cost?

Bulldog,
back in the nineties we build 3 of these cars for Peter Monteverdi, one dummy car for shows and two fully functional. Times to time they were driven on racetracks.
(Difficult to make them street legal with the F1 engine)
All 3 cars stay in the Monteverdi Car Collection in Basel Switzerland and what I now they are not for sale. Anyway, the price would be very high.
An interesting project could be using a frame out of a GT40 kit and put the bodywork of the Monteverdi on it… should work..

Here are some pics of the carbon heat shield and the engine electric box.
Next to come is the cover for the box.

hu!! cant post more than one pic/post?

I would really be interested in just about anything. Especially the hood and trunk. I was asking Jerry at PIM about them the other day and he says that he's not making them anymore. And I tried e-mailing Wilkinson's, but never get any response (are they even selling stuff anymore?).

quote:

Originally posted by korina:
I checked out the site and couldn't find anything for a Pantera but I'd buy one of those bicycles. The other sports cars look fantastic though. Since I can't read German, is there a place that sells the bicycle pictured on the website in the US? Thanks

You can translate the web site to English:

http://www.intelcad.com/translate/main.htm

Have you seen this site?http://www.precisionproformance.com/carbon.htm

Been to their site before, but that's the first time I've seen the carbon fiber hood. Awesome. Great price too. Sold!!!

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Originally posted by MacMan:
I would really be interested in just about anything. Especially the hood and trunk. I was asking Jerry at PIM about them the other day and he says that he's not making them anymore. And I tried e-mailing Wilkinson's, but never get any response (are they even selling stuff anymore?).

I talked to Steve 2 weeks ago about their fiberglass and carbon fiber parts. They're still making them.

If you read the description, it is fiberglass and carbon fiber. Pure carbon fiber construction is very, very expensive. Most items have a layer of carbon fiber over the fiberglass construction. Gives the look without the cost.

I have done some calculations to give you ideas of our prices:

Decklid: $ 2750 weight: ~13.3 lb
Front hood: $ 1180 weight: ~ 6.2 lb
E-box: $ 560 weight: ~ 3.2 lb
Prices without shipment.

The decklid and the hood have a black satin finish and have to be painted. We can made them in the typical carbon design but then they have to be clear coated and sanded two times to get a perfect high gloss finish.
Like I say before, I build these parts to reduce the weight of the car and keep the stock look.
They should be stiff like the stock parts.
If you wish I can do the trim line of the hood and trunk oversized to let you trim them perfect to YOUR car.

I post pictures when I finished the tools an my set.

Price is worth it and I'd do for the weight savings. Hopefully you can get a good fit so that we wouldn't necessarily need to trim?

quote:

Originally posted by MacMan:
Price is worth it and I'd do for the weight savings. Hopefully you can get a good fit so that we wouldn't necessarily need to trim?

McMan, our carbon hoods and decklids will copy the shape of my stock units and so, fit perfect to my car. The tools and the parts have expanded edges anyway and the edges on the parts have to be cut.
I am not an expert on the Panteras bodywork and don’t now how much is true on the myth that every Panteras body is different. If yes, it can be a solution to leave, say 0.3 inch material on the edges and let the customer trim them on the car on witch the hood has to mount. With this, it is possible to make the gap between the hood and the car very tight.
Ahead of this we can do more and glue the outer sheet with the inner web on the car and let it cure in the right position and the correct bends. This can fix problems of different bends / radiuses, as example on the fenders.

I am looking forward to let all of you now when the my parts are finish and also will be available for you.

Are you maybe toying with the idea of making the entire car out of carbon fiber like Lotus does with the Elise? If so, about how much would something like that cost?

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Originally posted by DeTom:
Are you maybe toying with the idea of making the entire car out of carbon fiber like Lotus does with the Elise? If so, about how much would something like that cost?

Your right DeTom! I am.. How can you read mi mind?
I was thinking of, disassemble a stock steel body to every single metal sheet just like it was before they welded it together, make a copy of every panel and glue all together to a full carbon body…
Of cause there it’s a little more to do but it can be done.
Sure, it is not the optimum to just copy the stock steel body but it is much easier and more realistic than engineer the cars structure new.
Part of the idea is to keep it possible to mound all the stuff from the steel car to the carbon one.
A problem is to get a complete “body only”. (I don’t like the idea to disassemble my own car to every single sheet)
Unfortunately I miss the possibility to buy a GT5S body for 9`000.- Swiss francs that’s around $7500.. This happens just a couple days ago. Well I have to look forward.

It is complex to calculate how much a complete body would cost. Give me some time to do this assignments and I can give you an idea.

I am glad I am not the only one thinking of this. THe biggest problem with our Panteras is they rust. Carbon fiber doesn't rust. It would also reduce the weight of the car by maybe a thousand pounds. Which should make a much better car. What better way to keep your Pantera going forever?? Just buy a body from you, and bolt all parts off the old body on to the new one and you are good to go for eternity. Well at least until you die, then the next guy can enjoy your car for the rest of his life too.

Would be very interested in Wheelhouse Panels, Front Fenders and Valance Panels. I have a dismantled 73 L that I have been taking my time with and over the years acquiring many new and used exterior sheet metal, Fenders, Valance Panels, Roof tops, etc.., before I start reassembling the car. Contact me at my personal e-mail cliff_m_b@yahoo.com if maybe you might need some "loaner" panels in order to take molds from.

Thank you,
Cliff

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
I am glad I am not the only one thinking of this. THe biggest problem with our Panteras is they rust. Carbon fiber doesn't rust. Just buy a body from you, and bolt all parts off the old body on to the new one and you are good to go for eternity.

The Pantera is a unibody. No frame. Ideally you'd use a tube chassis for the carbon fiber body. Also on the cars with terminal rust, the suspension pieces (stamped steel) have also rusted.

The Lotus Elise is also a unibody. They have figured out a way to bond and mold large carbon fiber sections. Jaguar has also adopted this manufacturing technique. The unibody for the elise weighs about two hundred pounds. The steel body of a Pantera weighs just over eight hundred pounds. Actualy they can make upper and lower control arms out of carbon fiber now too. And as things get lighter and less stressed, you can make more and more components work. I wonder if anyone has tried carbon fiber wheels yet?

couple year back i saw a company making carbon wheel for motorcycle. cost was in the neighborhood of $5000 a set. nothing for car though.

YES!

quote:

Originally posted by Oucipi:

quote:

Originally posted by DeTom:
Are you maybe toying with the idea of making the entire car out of carbon fiber like Lotus does with the Elise? If so, about how much would something like that cost?

Your right DeTom! I am.. How can you read mi mind?
I was thinking of, disassemble a stock steel body to every single metal sheet just like it was before they welded it together, make a copy of every panel and glue all together to a full carbon body…
Of cause there it’s a little more to do but it can be done.
Sure, it is not the optimum to just copy the stock steel body but it is much easier and more realistic than engineer the cars structure new.
Part of the idea is to keep it possible to mound all the stuff from the steel car to the carbon one.
A problem is to get a complete “body only”. (I don’t like the idea to disassemble my own car to every single sheet)
Unfortunately I miss the possibility to buy a GT5S body for 9`000.- Swiss francs that’s around $7500.. This happens just a couple days ago. Well I have to look forward.

It is complex to calculate how much a complete body would cost. Give me some time to do this assignments and I can give you an idea.

Steve, your work sounds fascinating. Too bad carbon-fibre technology wasn't around in the 90's when De Tomaso could've used it on it's late model cars. Maybe they would still be around?

Keep us posted on your progress.

Kevin

Won't you need jigs and other stuff to put it all back together straight? Sounds like a herculean task.

Jeff
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quote:

Won't you need jigs and other stuff to put it all back together straight? Sounds like a herculean task.

Thank you. Our cars flex enough as is. Removing fenders, valances,firewalls,roofs, will vastly compromise the rigidity of the car!!! Buying carbon fiber pieces, no matter the savings of weight and their strength, and putting them into cut-out sections of a unibody car is not a two six-pack, long weekend task. It is probably not even a task that can be structurally done correctly by any but the most highly equipped/qualified specialty shop.

If you want the bling/weight savings of bolt-on pieces, go for it. But this talk of replacing sections of the unibody seems far fetched and not too well thought out.

Would you use aluminum pop rivets to further reduce the rust factor when attaching the carbon pieces, or just stick with some high strength epoxy you got at Home Depot?? ;-)

IMHO.

Larry

I don't know. I think it would be quite interesting. Not the separate panels idea, but the entire car. The guy's company has already built this car and it's 90% carbon so they have experience.



I would agree with you if we're talking about a guy in Fresno working out of his garage. But looking over the website, they have experience with carbon fibre and autos, so maybe they can do it. Maybe.


Kevin

Yep, the only way it works is to make the whole unibody one great big piece. And it is a herculian task and nobody try it at home. Graphite carbon is not only hard to work with, it can be dangerous too.
We have to make sure Mad Dog doesn't get one of these new bodies because carbon fiber will burn.

Kevin, It's been done! Check out Jerry from PI carbon fiber body, tube frame. I love tube frames.. follow this link about 4 fows down. It is red. There are more pic of it taken at the same event. http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8250045562/m/9390056393

Huh! Lot of movement here!

I absolutely understand some people doubts of what we are talking about here.

Jeff your right, like Larry says, the Pantera unibody will flex and distort when you just remove fenders, firewalls….with out any support. It would be a must to fix at least the suspension points in a jig to keep it straight. As soon the carbon replacements are in place and the structural adhesive is cured, the car is back with more stiffness than before. Carbon has a much better e-module (stiffness) in relation to his weight than the steel, used on the panels of the Panteras.
And Larry, I am totally agreed with you when you say a fancy “Super-duper-pink-fix everything-epoxy” wouldn’t do this job. We have to use structural adhesives witch are specially designed to bond composite materials to metal surfaces and its also important to make the right surface preparation prior to glue any parts together.
Also with the rivets I agree with you. Rivets may work to put GT4 flares to the car ore help to keep parts in place to let adhesives cure. All the forces in a structure have to be transferred from part to part. Rivets (and so welded points and bolts) can do that just in points and the forces have to go thru these points. In case of bonding you have surfaces do this job and so no high stressed points.

DeTom , you say: “the only way it works is to make the whole unibody one great big piece” YES this would bring the best performance. That’s exactly what they do in Formula one, Le Mans, GT, Indy and all the other $$$£££€€€ racing classes.
And with fire you bring in another important point. The carbon fibre it self’s doesn’t burn and it withstand extreme temperatures without loosing his fantastic mechanic properties. The brake discs of high performance race cars are made out of carbon... The problem with body parts in case of a fire is the resins in the composites (epoxy, vinylester or polyester). They will burn and worse, they will smoke, some of them toxic! To take care of these facts we use fire retarded resin systems like we have to use on any aircraft interior parts.

Kevin, at the same time we were at the “1993 Geneva Auto salon” with our Monteverdi project, De Tomaso was there with the SI (I am not 100% sure about the type but I’m sure SI Targa can sort this out for us). The carbon technology was already available in the 90` but to expensive for mass production and in this case, nothing changes since then.
The composite industry love to keep the “carbon is: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$” …

Dean, we actually produce a motorcycle carbon wheel set. It is used in the Moto GP class.
Just the rims for 3 piece wheels like BBS`s are no problem but full carbon wheels for a street driven car are much more difficult to make. The major problem is the heat from the brakes after a wild ride when there is no more cooling airflow to keep the temperatures in a range that the resin in the wheels can withstand.

I sure some of you are interested in these pictures of the main structure of the Monteverdi car.

Gentlemen,

Before I stick my foot in my mouth, let me start by reminding you I support each owner with whatever he or she decides to do with HIS or HER Pantera.

But.....

No matter how much you modify your Pantera, it will never perform as well as the Noble. So.........If you spend more on your Pantera than the price of a Noble, have you spent your money wisely?

A Noble M12GTO3R sells in the US for $80,000 to $87,000 USD, the Noble M400 sells in the US for $90,000 to $95,000 USD.

How much money must you invest in a Pantera in initial purchase, chassis & engine upgrades, plus all this carbon fiber you're talking about, to achieve a vehicle that is even capable of 90% of the performance of a Noble?

Consider this option, sell your Pantera, apply the entire sale amount as a down payment on a Noble , and make monthly payments on the remaining amount, instead of spending money on Pantera upgrades & repairs.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

I will reinforce what Steve has written about the strength of structural adhesives.

There are off road motorcycles with aluminum swingarms that are "glued" together, rather than welded. This allowed the manufacturer to use thinner aluminum "tubing" than what is required for a welded assembly, and results in a lighter swingarm. If you can imagine the forces encountered by the swingarm of a modern off road motorcycle with long travel suspension, you'll understand that adhesive assembly can easily hold the panels of an automobile together.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

Great alternative George. I absolutely love the Noble but it's already done for you. A good chunk of my Pantera nirvana comes from actually working on and improving the beast. I'm afraid I'd sorely miss that with the Noble.

How about keep the Pantera AND buy the Noble too!

I wish!!

George, the noble is a cool car but it is little. Real little. It is quicker than snot but it is not capable of speeds over 200 mph. I need a car that can do 200 mph so I can get to work. Otherwise it may take more than five minutes to get to work and that is just too much of my life wasted. Now a Pantera is samll but just big enough that I can wiggle in. SO I know an Elise or a noble is out of the question. Besides, steel rusts and carbon fiber don't. Don't be old fashioned. Embrace the new techno;ogy. We don't need lead for body work anymore. This man is offering us freedom from welding and grinding. Back breaking chores that require mucho skill and patience. If we just buy a body from him our worries over preservation of the marque will be over. Long live carbon!!!

The Noble has a tubular chassis, GRP composite body, weighs less than 2200 pounds. GRP doesn't rust either, DeTom.

It will acomodate a much larger driver than a Pantera, without having to drop the floorpans. Don't have to purchase Sparco seats either, they're standard.

It's Ford powered and has a German tranny (Getrag) just like your beloved Pantera too!

Don't want to do 0 to 60 in 3.6 seconds?

Unfortunately, it will only reach 170 mph in 6th gear at redline.

Since it costs the same price in the US as a Viper, anyone who buys a Viper is an ........unwise consumer, ahem. Same goes for those who spend that much on their Panteras.

Oh, DeTom, you can drive for more than 200 miles at a time, too!

(Kevin, I wish I could afford both too, but I would need a second shrine, errr, garage, for the Noble)

Your friend on the DTBB, George

To bad the NOBLE is so butt ugly!

Jeff
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