Clarification on Crate engines and "engine in a box"

Mark,

Thank you for the post. I worked with Heather to see if one of your engines would be a good fit for my car. I personally feel your organization is top notch and that you are producing great engines that are what they say. My car is an early pantera and I want to stay with my stock radiator and my trans mounting system (I only have 1 rear mount). I think your engine is truely a work of art but it may be too much for my set up. I think your pricing is very fair and I am trying to talk myself into changing my radiator and trans mounts to enable me to use one of your engines.

Thanks
Anson Johnson

Anson

Have no fear I have a early car and I'm using the stock rear single trans mount and the bolt on P.I.M. side mounts for the rear of the trans. I have a 550 HP dart winsor block based motor. The cooling system has been upgraded with the Hall radiator in stock location with no vents in the hood. I also installed a couple of upgraded fans in the stock mounts. No cooling problems.

Once again when I asked Mark & Heather at MME for a 600Hp motor for my car they assured me that it was entirely possible.

The quality of their build was impeccable.

When I was in the process of selecting a builder they took the time to listen to me, their pricing was fair and they were able to keep my delivery date as agreed.

This is in contrast to the many other builders who did not listen to my wants and needs with this engine build, had extreme solutions in mind, and were not open about what would go into the build.

When compared with other builders with national reputations (I spoke to Keith Craft, Bennett Racing, Livernois Motorsports, MCE Engines, Sean Hyland Motorsport, Dave Storlein and Roush, along with a couple of local builders)their pricing ran $3000 to as much as $9000 less than the builders on this list

Again my 427 made pulls at a 713hp and 711hp and followed it up with at least another 6 pulls all at 695HP. Mark & Heather greatly exceeded my expectations. Since then I have had numerous friends and acquaintances trying to figure it out on their DeskTop Dynos.

Some people have called me an outright liar. I feel that most of those people have probably not been keeping up to date with the development of new technology.

If anyone wants to contact me directly for a further refernce on MME, please feel free to contact me at:

845-369-8889

Chris Lewis
73 Euro GTS with the 700HP MME 427 Clevor

Ok, so going under 600 horsepower is no cost saver, but how far can you go the other way?? Can you get an 800 horsepower engine for just a little more money?? When do you reach the upper limit of what a Cleavor can do???????

If you arew intersested in a 800 plus hp version, call me and we can discuss price and requirements for the project.

quote:

Originally posted by AJThree:
Mark,

Thank you for the post. I worked with Heather to see if one of your engines would be a good fit for my car. I personally feel your organization is top notch and that you are producing great engines that are what they say. My car is an early pantera and I want to stay with my stock radiator and my trans mounting system (I only have 1 rear mount). I think your engine is truely a work of art but it may be too much for my set up. I think your pricing is very fair and I am trying to talk myself into changing my radiator and trans mounts to enable me to use one of your engines.

Thanks
Anson Johnson

I'd either replace or add in the side mounts. The rear mount won't even stand up to the stock motor. My '71 has 28k miles and the previous owner almost never pushed the car hard but the mount was twisted and studs broken when I bought it.

As mentioned previously, I'm just a few miles from Mark. Happy to help any way I can. At my age, I've made many buying mistakes, but don't recall EVER regretting buying the best (the first time). The least expensive way to do something right is to do it right the first time.

John

DJEZC,
What additional modifications were required to use the Clevor in place of the Cleveland? What was the approximate cost?

I understand the popularity of the Windsor conversion....sort of. But......

I really like the bolt-in practicality of the Cleveland.

IF you are starting out from scratch - original motor, headers, intake, dizzy, tired water and fuel lines then maybe the Windsor makes sense. But for a car that has been upgraded but has a blown/tired motor, the cost/hassle savings of a Windsor will quickly go out the door.

Headers? Can't reuse, need Windsor style. Want to get them coated, too? Add $$$ New headers often will mean new pipes and mufflers = $$$$

Water lines? Ditto, go spend some more $$$

Intake manifold? Proper Pantera oil pan? Fancy valve covers? Water pump? Distributor? Ditto, ditto, more money.

I may just be a Cleveland purist, but I can also count pennies. And the Windsor swap doesn't make sense to me once you think it out beyond the easy-to-get crate motor stage.

My 2¢

Larry

Re-observe husker asked about the clevor. I don't see how the headers, exhaust and valve covers can't be retained.

Headers dont fit the CHI heads, Valve covers dont fit the Pedistal rockers and exhaust ...well maybe they can be altered to the new headers and made to clear the axle shafts.

Ron

so basically the same problems one would encounter putting CHI heads on a Cleveland, and not just due to using the Windsor block?

I guess its a matter of size .. 9.2 block or 9.5 block would change dimmensions, and change the parts in question.

Depending on the use of the motor ... if this question is being raised as a matter of Cost ... then maybe its in your best interest to stay with the C motor. If your looking for anything over 500hp .. I suggest a W block. Theres a bunch of aftermarket blocks that better suit your investment.

First off MME's crate motors are Clevors, ie Cleveland heads / Windsor block.

Cleveland headers will work with this set-up. The only change you will need is if you go with the higher deck height instead of a 9.2 Cleveland deck height. Then you will either need new headers or clearance (Read dimple) your old ones.

Larry LF-TP 2511 - You obviously did not read the post as you are talking as if this is a pure Windsor build.

I was starting with a blank piece of paper when it came to designing the motor I wanted. I sold the "failure waiting to happen" Cleveland and spent 18 months researching what would be the best combination and builder to produce it.

You ignore the advantages of this type of build:

A)Reliability at high HP due to superior design and material strength. The Dart Iron Eagle block in my build has sustained up to 2000HP in race applications. My build should not ever stress that block.

B)Durability with an improved oiling system.

C) Ability to do repeated overbores if desired, which you cannot do with Cleveland blocks.

D) The shaft rockers add to a more stable valve train which permits higher rpm operation without fear of failure.

E) The oil pan is an Aviad 8 quart baffled oil pan for the Pantera, virtually the same cost as the one they offer for the Cleveland.

D) Distributor is an MSD. I chose a small diameter unit which reduces the possibility of fit problems. Again no more money than buying an MSD for your Cleveland.

F) I chose custom sheet metal valve covers because I wanted something that looked good and would dress up the engine. Standard style valve covers with the DeTomaso logo would have fit. If you have spent that much on the engine a few dollars more to dress it up should not be a problem.

G) There is no difference in fuel lines.

If all you want is a 300-400hp build you don't need to go this extreme. That was not satisfactory to me.

Again the results speak for themselves: Over 700HP, normally aspirated, on pump gas.

quote:

Again the results speak for themselves: Over 700HP, normally aspirated, on pump gas.

You'll shoot your eye out. Those things are dangerous. Maybe you would prefer a football????

In regards to off the shelf headers for Panteras, keep in mind that all headers designed to bolt to Cleveland heads are designed for a 9.2" deck height block, all headers designed for Windsor heads are designed for 9.5" deck height blocks.

The aftermarket Windsor blocks are available in both deck heights. If you plan to build a Clevor (or SVO) motor, and plan to use off the shelf headers, you'll need to purchase a 9.2" block. If you plan to build a 100% Windsor motor, you'll need to purchase a 9.5" block.

The larger CHI 3V heads (225cc ports, 258cc ports) have an exhaust port that is raised 0.400", but they have standard Cleveland bolt patterns. 4V headers will bolt straight on, however the headers will sit 0.200" higher & wider (because they're bolted onto a 90 degree V8 and sit 45 degrees off perpendicular). Headers that barely fit into the chassis as is, just missing the frame or half shafts, may end up hitting the frame or half shafts when bolted to a set of 3V heads. Nothing that a Rosebud and single jack can't fix! I'd wait on getting them ceramic coated until I test fitted them in the car. LOL .............

Which block to buy depends upon your timetable and what you plan to do with the motor. Like Ron wrote above, for racing I would suggest a heavy duty block. At the moment a Windsor block is really the only viable option. For street use the Cleveland block will suffice. If you want to build a stroker over 408 cubic inches, you will again need to go with a Windsor block. The 9.5" Windsor can take a longer stroke than 4.00" (which is the practical limit with a 9.2" Cleveland), and the aftermarket blocks allow bore diameters in the 4.125" to 4.185" range.

There is a heavy duty Cleveland block in the works, no word on progress lately. If you would like to go racing with this block, or use it to build a large stroker, then patience is required. That's what I'm doing, waiting.

To make one small correction to what Chris wrote above, MME's $6000, 540 bhp crate motor is 100% Cleveland. It's a 408 cubic inch stroker, uses iron 4V heads. It's a lot of bang for your buck. Mark does the oiling system right, and he has preparation methods that help the production thin wall block survive at elevated output.

cowboy from hell

Wonder what kind of fuel economy these 700hp engines get. One of the reasons I went turbo is because I can get 700HP on pump gas, lug it at 1000 rpm around town and get in the 20s for mpg. Still, a high rpm high HP N/A engine can be fun. I know hot rod magazine did an engine build up one time and the highest HP engine they built was a 289 ford that made 750 hp at 10,000 rpm.

I strongly believe that this Forum is about alot of things, how many miles I squeeze out of a gallon of gas "aint" on the list. For me, It's all about 1) satisfying that primal need I have to have fun and get kicked in the ass with power when ever I feel the need ,and B)upholding the tradition of the Marque and aspire to appreciate beauty of days gone by......

quote:

You ignore the advantages of this type of build:

So? You ignored the disadvantages. I was just presenting the other side of the coin.

And for the record, your first post only described the motor as a 427 stroker. You made no reference to a Clevor and I just assumed it was one of the plethora of Windsor crate motors being sold on just about every street corner to the Mustang crowd.

What I did say was that for those of us with a Cleveland with all the goodies already on it, abandoning the Cleveland block would leave us with a lot of unuseable parts and the need to purchase much more than just the crate motor. This is true, to one degree or another, for a Windsor or Clevor.

I certainly did say that for those starting from scratch, i.e. a stock, tired Ford Cleveland that did not have all the goodies (ignition, headers,pan,covers,manifold) then abandoning the Cleveland for a Windsor (or for the sake of arguement, Clevor) maybe did make sense.

The MME motor sounds awesome and reasonably priced. For those who can remove the Cleveland heart of a Pantera without remorse (that's not me) and can afford spending the money it seems like a lot of bang for the buck.

And you could tell folks it was still a Cleveland, and most everyone would never know the difference.

Larry

We have a Cleveland blocked version in 409" with the CHI heads. Check out the website for pricing and details.