Cooling tube removal

Yep... Otherwise you'll have to remove the engine and transmission.

That's the way I did it. The 2 long 6' cooling tubes got cut out and replaced with 4 3' pieces.

I'm currently trying to fix a cooling system problem with my car. I just removed the water pump and am going to try adding a impeller disk.

My car runs cool on the freeway but the minutes I get into traffic it starts to heat up. I think it is either an airflow problem of a water flow problem.

I have a new fluidyne radiator and 2 sucker fans so I am betting on a water flow issue.

Thanks guys,

Scott, same issue here. Initially found I had a windsor thermostat and thought that was the problem but it still persists.. New large Fuidyne with 2 pusher fans, still temp goes up in traffic. Thought perhaps the tubes were caked with crud but the Inside of the T-stat tube was clean, and looking up into the 2 undercar tube, they're clean so I would assume the tube to the radiator are clean as well as all were painted then the motor was rebuilt a few years ago and little mileage since. Sure hope it the pump as I'm running out of options. The Edlebrock pump looks really good and should flow higher volumn and pressure. Good luck..

Keep in mind Keith recently found one of his coolant tubes completely plugged.

Yes, I remember that thread, was actually hoping my long tubes were dirty, but at least the ends closest to the engine were extremely clean inside. I'll seperate the fronts of them from the front tubes and take a look inside of them as well. I've got a full set of new blue silicon hoses and lined clamps, might as well be sure..

Thank you
John

Just a follow up. To replace the 60 1/2 inch tube, I had to cut the front loop, so It would drop out. I had restrictions in two tubes from rusty sludge buildup. Hint, it your tubes are cool to the touch (just grab each one) if they are just warm, I would think it's a flow problem. If they are very hot you have good flow and may have another problem. My car is running about 210-220, no overheat problem, just a little warm for my carb to take though.

quote:

My car runs cool on the freeway but the minutes I get into traffic it starts to heat up. I think it is either an airflow problem of a water flow problem.

So.... you would expect 80 MPH air flow to be equaled by a couple of fans?

Of course the temp will go up in city traffic.

Do you then have boiling, overflow problems? Then you do have a situation needing attention.

But just a temp increase with no other issues is normal. On a PCNC outing last weekend, 2511 hit 210 degrees on the mechanical VDO gauge while entering Golden Gate Park in very slow traffic. But that is still quite a bit from boiling in a 16 pound pressurized system, and other than the high temp, there were no other issues.

I just hate to see you chasing a problem that may not need chasing. Have you calibrated your temp gauge so the shown temp IS the actual temp? You can do this with a candy thermometer in the surge tank - compare that reading to your console gauge reading.

Bottom line - no boiling over, no real problem.

My 2¢

Larry

Not sure I agree, I would suggest that the temp should remain ..fairly.. constant with a properly sized, properly operating cooling system. 2 properly sized, properly shrouded fans should be keep the car at a reasonable temp in traffic, highway driving should far exceed the airflow equirements. None of my other cars get hot in traffic, I've run a 2x4 454 Ford medium riser in one of my other Shelbys and the car would not exceed 190 even in 100* stop and go traffic for extended periods.

Take care

John

My observations re: the Pantera cooling system:

The 351C mounted in a '70 through '73 Mustang had no cooling problems what so ever. The problem with the Pantera's cooling system does not reside with the design of the motor. Just make sure you are running the Robertshaw 333-180 thermostat.

The Pantera cooling system has several inherent limitations in design due to the layout of the chassis, and it strays from the design of a Mustang cooling system significantly. It reflects an attempt to design a race car cooling system, but there are some strange deviations from that too. A race car cooling system is not practical for a street car anyway.

The Mustang has a 1 1/2" ID hose between the motor outlet & radiator. It has a 1 3/4" ID hose between the radiator and water pump inlet. The top hose is about 18" long, the bottom hose about 12" long.

The greater distance between radiator and motor compared to a Mustang reduces the flow capacity of the Pantera system. So does the extra restrictions such as the swirlpot, the many extra bends in the tubing, etc.

Race cars travel constantly at high speeds with the motors turning high rpms. Race teams often have to slow down the speed of the water pump, restrict the flow of water coming out of the motor (increasing back pressure in the engine reduces the likelyhood of boiling coolant in the heads) and use two pass radiators which again slow down the flow rate of the coolant.

But the Pantera is a street car, it doesn't travel constantly at high speeds, the motor doesn't turn high rpm constantly. What did the designers do? They installed a smaller pulley on the crank, slowing down the water pump. They used 1 3/8" OD tubing between motor and radiator (smaller and longer than the hose in a Mustang). They specified a two pass radiator. What we have here is a serious coolant flow problem. When the motor needed more flow, to return it to Mustang spec, the engineers gave it less.

Any retiree knows that if his RV has a cooling problem he needs either a larger radiator or more coolant flow. Apparently there were no retirees in Modena in 1970.

The small width & height of the Pantera radiator requires extra thickness to get adequate surface area, but as a radiator gets thicker, it impedes air flow through the radiator, this is mostly a concern for slow speed driving. The small width and height of the radiator also reduces the size of the fans that can be mated with the radiator, another detriment to adequate air flow at low speeds.

So the Pantera coolant system has reduced coolant flow, a thick radiator, and smallish electric fans, all these are conditions that will lead to improper cooling a low speeds.

A swirl pot is a device usually found on race cars. The Pantera's swirl pot has a radiator cap on it, this is not race car practice. Normally a swirl pot just has a top air bleed leading to the "surge" tank. The Pantera's overflow tank also has a radiator cap, as though it was planned to be a surge tank, but never connected to the system as a surge tank. So its just an overflow tank with a pressure cap, thats just plain bizzar.

The standard Ron Davis & Fluidyne replacement radiators have the same two pass design as the oem radiator, with the same 1 3/8" OD nipples. They did this so their radiators would be "drop in" replacements. Although they have an improved core design, they do nothing to resolve the inherent design flaw of the Pantera's cooling system, which restricts coolant flow.

Many owners install heavy duty electric fans and still experience cooling problems at slow speeds, this is because they have a voltage drop problem in the fan wiring, the fans are not getting a full 13.6 volts and therefore are not turning at full speed (not blowing air at rated capacity).

Some people are confused about the use of fan shrowds, logically a shrowd appears to be a restriction to air flow, so enthusiasts don't install them. This is true for a race car, which travels constantly at high speed. A shrowd DOES restrict the maximum possible flow of air through a radiator. However, a fan shrowd increases the efficiency of fans mounted behind the radiator, which are needed at slow speeds and at stops. The shrowd IMPROVES air flow at slow speeds. Which is why almost all road cars employ some sort of fan shrowd when the fans are mounted behind the radiator.

cowboy from hell

There are certainly exceptions to what I'm about to state, but in general when it relates to Pantera cooling:

If you're overheating at speed, you either have a radiator that has insufficient heat rejection or inadequate coolant flow for the horsepower you're producing.

If you're overheating in traffic at low speeds, you more than likely have inadequate air flow, and possibly inadequate coolant flow. The latter is usually due to having inadvertantly modified the characteristic flow in the stock system (incorrect thermostat or bypass circuit for example). If you have a stock or moderately modified engine in your pcar, a well designed plenum with sucker fans promotes more even air flow across the entire radiator surface will almost always remedy low speed overheating in the average Pantera- much more effective than cutting hibachi vents in your hood! Because of the space restrictions, this usuually requires lay forward of the radiator. Here's an example of the plenum.

-My 2 cents.

And laying forward in car.

Interestingly, the radiator in Kelly's picture, which I believe is the Collector's Choice radiator (sourced from Ron Davis) has the upper nipple located on the top of its respective tank, making it an inlet. This is just the opposite of the oem radiator. When using this radiator the hoses should be crossed.

cowboy from hell

quote:

What did the designers do? They installed a smaller pulley on the crank, slowing down the water pump.

So George, do I take it where we all purchased and installed high volume water pumps to increase flow, we would have been equally as good simply switching back to a larger crank pulley?

Julian

So would my Fluidyne be correctly plumbed? Mine has the nipples mounted toward the middle of the right side tank. Swirl tank feels right side tube under car feeds lower radiator nipple. Top nipple feeds left side undercar tube feeds water pump.
Thank you!

John

Julian,

I don't think the standard crank pulley fits in a Pantera, it's too large in diameter and would hit the chassis. I have always assumed that's why the pulley was changed in the first place.

The stock pump works fine in a road going Mustang. However in a Pantera with it's long tubes, I think the high flow water pump is a good idea, even if the pulley were the standard size.

cowboy from hell

John,

the nipple closest to the top of its respective tank is the inlet, and the nipple closest to the bottom of its respective tank is the outlet. The Panteras oem radiator has both nipples near the middle, which places the upper nipple in the bottom of its tank, making it the outlet. Make sense?

to answer your question, the Fluidyne radiator duplicates the layout of the oem radiator, so yes yours is plumbed properly.

Thank you...

All this talk of nipples makes me........thirsty.. LOL

Ha, ha, ha ...

quote:

Originally posted by george pence:
Interestingly, the radiator in Kelly's picture, which I believe is the Collector's Choice radiator (sourced from Ron Davis)

I purchased it from Dennis Quella at Pantera Performance five years ago. It's possible that it originates from Ron but I sort of doubt it. However, there is a lot of "cooperation" between sources of parts and vendors.

quote:

has the upper nipple located on the top of its respective tank, making it an inlet.

Correct.

quote:

This is just the opposite of the oem radiator. When using this radiator the hoses should be crossed.

I had forgotten that. I fabbed my own stainless tubes that just left a short straight section of hose for expansion and stress relief.

Kelly