Anyone have any dealings or opinions on these heads?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewIte...ame=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT
I can get them shipped to Hawaii for $1700
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The CHI heads are better out of the box and after worked has been performed to them and they should be about $1500 deliver. Why mess around with th Edelbrocks? It doesn't make sense from where I sit.
By the way do you still have the black decklid or has it been sold? If it is still available what would shipping cost to 10901?
Thanks for the information. Where is the best source for the CHI's? The deck lid has been sold as a package to Jerry at Pantera International. Call him if you're interested. Its in great shape, no rust or dents. Should be a lot better price from him due to the shipping from Hawaii.
Dennis,
Which intake manifold would you like to use with the heads? Do you want to keep your Blue Thunder, or purchase something new? The head choices out there involve heads with differing port sizes and port heights. For instance, the Edelbrock head is a 2V head, your Blue Thunder intake will not work with that head.
For a mild street combo that will tremendously improve throttle response, make more bhp, and have plenty of potential for future upgrade, I would recommend either the CHI or AFD 2V head, the new Edelbrock Air Gap intake, and a relatively mild Crane hydraulic roller cam.
The guy selling the Edelbrock heads, DSC Motorsports, is a stand up guy (Dennis Carrico). Jon Kaase Motorsports sells CHI heads. PI Motorsports used to sell CHI heads, you'll need to call Jerry to determine if he still sells them. He also advertises selling the Edelbrock heads. AFD heads are available on e-bay.
To make a general statement about Edelbrock heads, they are well made heads, but performance wise they generally lag behind the competition. They can be ported to equal the performance of the competition, but out of the box they will not perform as well. The flow data I've seen for the Edelbrock 2V Cleveland heads is not very impressive, if memory serves me, they weren't any better than the cast iron Australian 2V heads. Which means with porting they can support 400 to 450 bhp at the crank.
There is more info about the Edelbrock heads in this forum if you were to do a search.
If you want to retain your Blue Thunder intake, then your choice in alloy heads shall be the CHI 4V head. This is another good choice. It is the 3V head with the intake port opening enlarged to mate up with the 4V intake manifold runner.
cowboy from hell
Which intake manifold would you like to use with the heads? Do you want to keep your Blue Thunder, or purchase something new? The head choices out there involve heads with differing port sizes and port heights. For instance, the Edelbrock head is a 2V head, your Blue Thunder intake will not work with that head.
For a mild street combo that will tremendously improve throttle response, make more bhp, and have plenty of potential for future upgrade, I would recommend either the CHI or AFD 2V head, the new Edelbrock Air Gap intake, and a relatively mild Crane hydraulic roller cam.
The guy selling the Edelbrock heads, DSC Motorsports, is a stand up guy (Dennis Carrico). Jon Kaase Motorsports sells CHI heads. PI Motorsports used to sell CHI heads, you'll need to call Jerry to determine if he still sells them. He also advertises selling the Edelbrock heads. AFD heads are available on e-bay.
To make a general statement about Edelbrock heads, they are well made heads, but performance wise they generally lag behind the competition. They can be ported to equal the performance of the competition, but out of the box they will not perform as well. The flow data I've seen for the Edelbrock 2V Cleveland heads is not very impressive, if memory serves me, they weren't any better than the cast iron Australian 2V heads. Which means with porting they can support 400 to 450 bhp at the crank.
There is more info about the Edelbrock heads in this forum if you were to do a search.
If you want to retain your Blue Thunder intake, then your choice in alloy heads shall be the CHI 4V head. This is another good choice. It is the 3V head with the intake port opening enlarged to mate up with the 4V intake manifold runner.
cowboy from hell
Dennis,
The CHI heads ship direct out of Melbourne, Australia, so who knows being in Hawaii may actually work in your favor for once!
See them at http://www.chiheads.com/
They quote prices in US$ and that's a delivered to your door price e.g. 4V Bare head package $1500, complete performance package $2150
Julian
The CHI heads ship direct out of Melbourne, Australia, so who knows being in Hawaii may actually work in your favor for once!
See them at http://www.chiheads.com/
They quote prices in US$ and that's a delivered to your door price e.g. 4V Bare head package $1500, complete performance package $2150
Julian
I am weighing all the options. I am going with the 2v to get more on the low end. I don't play high enough to need the 4v port size. I will probably switch from the Blue Thunder intake to the Edelbrock RPM Air Gap intake. Pricing seems to be the question now. I can get a set of built AFR 2v heads for $2100 delivered, the built Edelbrocks with bigger valves for $1700 delivered or a set of built iron aussie 2v's for only $1275 delivered which would leave me extra money to buy other toys. Anymore insight? Are the aluminums worth the extra money or is it better to get the iron aussies and spend the extras on something else?
Dennis, if I'm spending your money, you are buying the CHI 2V heads, the Edelbrock Air Gap intake and a Crane Cams retro-fit hydraulic roller cam #529541 (plus their springs and lifters) and a good set of roller rocker arms.
Here's a link to an old post with flow data for the various 2V heads:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562...740045104#6740045104
You'll find the CHI is the flow champ out of the box. The AFD has slightly raised intake ports, which makes fitting intake manifolds a bit quirky. I'd set the motor up for a compression ratio of 9.5:1 to play it conservative.
This is the sweetest conservative "street" package I can recommend for a standard displacement motor. For those who want to make the motor look wilder, substitute the Parker 2V Funnelweb intake in place of the Edelbrock Air Gap intake.
Although not a concern for Dennis in Hawaii, the one drawback of all the alloy heads is that none of them have provision for an exhaust heat crossover for the intake manifold, which is a concern for those who drive their cars in colder temperatures.
Here's a pic of AFD alloy heads with the Parker intake, pretty wild, huh?
cowboy from hell
Here's a link to an old post with flow data for the various 2V heads:
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562...740045104#6740045104
You'll find the CHI is the flow champ out of the box. The AFD has slightly raised intake ports, which makes fitting intake manifolds a bit quirky. I'd set the motor up for a compression ratio of 9.5:1 to play it conservative.
This is the sweetest conservative "street" package I can recommend for a standard displacement motor. For those who want to make the motor look wilder, substitute the Parker 2V Funnelweb intake in place of the Edelbrock Air Gap intake.
Although not a concern for Dennis in Hawaii, the one drawback of all the alloy heads is that none of them have provision for an exhaust heat crossover for the intake manifold, which is a concern for those who drive their cars in colder temperatures.
Here's a pic of AFD alloy heads with the Parker intake, pretty wild, huh?
cowboy from hell
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I guess purple is the color of choice for those who know what's happening now?
Dennis,
I think one of the advantages to the Edelbrock heads is the ability to use headers that fit the Ford 4Vheads? As I understand, the raised port heads require different headers and maybe some massaging of the gas tank shield.
Art
I think one of the advantages to the Edelbrock heads is the ability to use headers that fit the Ford 4Vheads? As I understand, the raised port heads require different headers and maybe some massaging of the gas tank shield.
Art
Do the stock 351C headers fit all these aftermarket AL heads?
Josh,
Keep in mind there are many alloy heads available for the 351C. If I focus my answer to the products manufactured by AFD & CHI, the answer is YES and MAYBE.
AFD uses a uni-exhaust port for both their 2V & 4V heads, supposed to be small enough for 2V header flanges, definitely OK for 4V header flanges, stock bolt pattern, the port is raised 2mm (0.080"), which should be no problem.
CHI uses a true uni-exhaust port with their 2V & 4V heads, it is in the stock location, stock bolt pattern and is again supposed to be small enough for 2V header flanges, definitely OK for 4V header flanges.
CHI employs a 0.400" raised exhaust port on their 3V cylinder heads, the headers will be raised and moved outboard a small amount, this may create a chassis fitment problem with some headers or it may not. Other than that, the exhaust port employs the stock bolt pattern and is definitely small enough to fit 4V header flanges with no problems, I think 2V header flanges require a bit of grinding. This is all from memory, you know how that goes...
heres the links:
http://www.airflowdynamics.com.au/
http://www.chiheads.com/
cowboy from hell
Keep in mind there are many alloy heads available for the 351C. If I focus my answer to the products manufactured by AFD & CHI, the answer is YES and MAYBE.
AFD uses a uni-exhaust port for both their 2V & 4V heads, supposed to be small enough for 2V header flanges, definitely OK for 4V header flanges, stock bolt pattern, the port is raised 2mm (0.080"), which should be no problem.
CHI uses a true uni-exhaust port with their 2V & 4V heads, it is in the stock location, stock bolt pattern and is again supposed to be small enough for 2V header flanges, definitely OK for 4V header flanges.
CHI employs a 0.400" raised exhaust port on their 3V cylinder heads, the headers will be raised and moved outboard a small amount, this may create a chassis fitment problem with some headers or it may not. Other than that, the exhaust port employs the stock bolt pattern and is definitely small enough to fit 4V header flanges with no problems, I think 2V header flanges require a bit of grinding. This is all from memory, you know how that goes...
heres the links:
http://www.airflowdynamics.com.au/
http://www.chiheads.com/
cowboy from hell
Sorry, I should've been more specific. Yes, I meant the AFD and CHI heads. Like others, I'm also in the market for new heads and asked a USA CHI vendor this same question. He wasn't certain of the answer..
Thanks for the response, George.
We're very fortunate to have you in the Pantera community.
Josh
Thanks for the response, George.
We're very fortunate to have you in the Pantera community.
Josh
New guy here. I also need help with selection of cylinder heads. I've had a good experience with the Pantera community so far. Nice people with great attitudes about helping. The car is far more understandable than some of the other mid engine cars I've had. I appreciate the Adlers rounding up all of the older PI magazines they had in stock for me.
The '73L I acquired this year has the Cleveland heads with the big chambers. Cam looks a little mild but should be streetable. With the Colorado altitude, the car is sluggish. I've lost 16% of the dyno results found below when considering a loss of 3% for every thousand feet. The right head, with the right combustion chamber, should make give the car a lot of giddy-up. I called the guys who put together the engine in early 2004 and they confirmed this is what I've got:
1)351 Cleveland with a 4.02 inch bore and 3.5 inch stroke. Internally balanced.
2)Hydraulic cam with 480\510 lift and 270\280 duration. 110 degree lobe separation. 1.73 to 1 rockers.
3)8.89 compression ratio. Head cc is 80.7, block cc is 17 at .075, gasket cc is 9.2, gasket compound is 1cc. This totals 92.3. The total cc measurement for the cylinder volume is 820.4. Divide 820.4 by 92.3 and the result is a compression ratio of 8.89. A 60 cc head alone should take the compression up above 11 to 1. That's not the complete cure for this engine but it's a good start. The size of the intake runner and the corresponding flow test becomes all important when considering the other characteristics of the engine.
4)Hyperuetectic pistons. Valve relief for the intake with a depth of .12 by .235 at the widest point. No relief for the exhaust.
5)The main journal is a 2.75 and the rod journals are 2.37.
6)Now here's the weird part. The sea level dyno shows max horsepower at the rear wheels as being 223 at 3250 rpms. Horsepower trails off from there. The max torque of 261 follows much later at 5100 rpms with horsepower of 185.
7)Rebuilt Holley 750 double pumper.
8)The headers on the left side of the motor have about 1\2 inch of clearance next to the shield.
Even at sea level, it looks like the engine is drowning in an imbalance of fuel and air that has no efficiency, given the size of the combustion chambers and the compression ratio. It doesn't run much better when jetted for high altitude. To someone who builds motors, I'm sure there is a multitude of issues that could be addressed but I would like to know if anyone
has a strong opinion regarding the heads mentioned in this thread that would be right for my car. Thanks!
The '73L I acquired this year has the Cleveland heads with the big chambers. Cam looks a little mild but should be streetable. With the Colorado altitude, the car is sluggish. I've lost 16% of the dyno results found below when considering a loss of 3% for every thousand feet. The right head, with the right combustion chamber, should make give the car a lot of giddy-up. I called the guys who put together the engine in early 2004 and they confirmed this is what I've got:
1)351 Cleveland with a 4.02 inch bore and 3.5 inch stroke. Internally balanced.
2)Hydraulic cam with 480\510 lift and 270\280 duration. 110 degree lobe separation. 1.73 to 1 rockers.
3)8.89 compression ratio. Head cc is 80.7, block cc is 17 at .075, gasket cc is 9.2, gasket compound is 1cc. This totals 92.3. The total cc measurement for the cylinder volume is 820.4. Divide 820.4 by 92.3 and the result is a compression ratio of 8.89. A 60 cc head alone should take the compression up above 11 to 1. That's not the complete cure for this engine but it's a good start. The size of the intake runner and the corresponding flow test becomes all important when considering the other characteristics of the engine.
4)Hyperuetectic pistons. Valve relief for the intake with a depth of .12 by .235 at the widest point. No relief for the exhaust.
5)The main journal is a 2.75 and the rod journals are 2.37.
6)Now here's the weird part. The sea level dyno shows max horsepower at the rear wheels as being 223 at 3250 rpms. Horsepower trails off from there. The max torque of 261 follows much later at 5100 rpms with horsepower of 185.
7)Rebuilt Holley 750 double pumper.
8)The headers on the left side of the motor have about 1\2 inch of clearance next to the shield.
Even at sea level, it looks like the engine is drowning in an imbalance of fuel and air that has no efficiency, given the size of the combustion chambers and the compression ratio. It doesn't run much better when jetted for high altitude. To someone who builds motors, I'm sure there is a multitude of issues that could be addressed but I would like to know if anyone
has a strong opinion regarding the heads mentioned in this thread that would be right for my car. Thanks!
SB,
Welcome to the DTIC!
Rear wheel horse power for a stock or mildly modified Pantera is 220 to 230 bhp. You are in the ball park.
Compression ratio is computed:
(swept volume + clearance volume)/clearance volume.
With '73 to '74 heads, if you zero deck the block, mill the heads, install flat top pistons, you can reach about 9.5:1 compression ratio, of course, with 0.020" over bore and that same work, you can hit even a bit higher compression ratio. Compression ratio should be tailored for the cylinder head/fuel/camshaft used on the motor. Normally your cam grinder will tell you where to set the compression ratio, compression ratio alone is not a big power maker, especially on a street motor. Closed chamber cylinder heads "IF" set up with the proper amount of squish, will allow the motor to run a bit more compression, will make a bit more bhp, will control detonation better, and make the motor more efficient. Alloy heads will allow even more compression without detonation, due to the superior heat transfer properties of aluminum. However, none of the alloy heads have provision for a heated intake cossover, something to consider if you plan to operate the car in cold weather.
Which heads to use is very dependent upon many factors: what is the intended use of the car, how important is drivability & reliability, what is the lowest altitude you'll ever drive the car at, what octane fuel is available to you or do you plan to use, do you have any power goals in mind, how important is it to keep the motor looking stock, and what is the budget??
The stock 4V iron heads are capable of supporting tremendous amounts of bhp, they were a top notch racing head in their day (and still remain a good performer). The 2V alloy heads manufactured by AFD & CHI mentioned above have smaller ports yet flow just as well as the iron 4V head with street cams having valve lift no greater than approx. 0.600", so the throttle response improves tremendously.
Perhaps a trip to a dyno operator is a good first step, let the dyno operator dial in the ignition & carburetor & see if that is to your liking.
your friend on the DTIC
Welcome to the DTIC!
Rear wheel horse power for a stock or mildly modified Pantera is 220 to 230 bhp. You are in the ball park.
Compression ratio is computed:
(swept volume + clearance volume)/clearance volume.
With '73 to '74 heads, if you zero deck the block, mill the heads, install flat top pistons, you can reach about 9.5:1 compression ratio, of course, with 0.020" over bore and that same work, you can hit even a bit higher compression ratio. Compression ratio should be tailored for the cylinder head/fuel/camshaft used on the motor. Normally your cam grinder will tell you where to set the compression ratio, compression ratio alone is not a big power maker, especially on a street motor. Closed chamber cylinder heads "IF" set up with the proper amount of squish, will allow the motor to run a bit more compression, will make a bit more bhp, will control detonation better, and make the motor more efficient. Alloy heads will allow even more compression without detonation, due to the superior heat transfer properties of aluminum. However, none of the alloy heads have provision for a heated intake cossover, something to consider if you plan to operate the car in cold weather.
Which heads to use is very dependent upon many factors: what is the intended use of the car, how important is drivability & reliability, what is the lowest altitude you'll ever drive the car at, what octane fuel is available to you or do you plan to use, do you have any power goals in mind, how important is it to keep the motor looking stock, and what is the budget??
The stock 4V iron heads are capable of supporting tremendous amounts of bhp, they were a top notch racing head in their day (and still remain a good performer). The 2V alloy heads manufactured by AFD & CHI mentioned above have smaller ports yet flow just as well as the iron 4V head with street cams having valve lift no greater than approx. 0.600", so the throttle response improves tremendously.
Perhaps a trip to a dyno operator is a good first step, let the dyno operator dial in the ignition & carburetor & see if that is to your liking.
your friend on the DTIC
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Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad to be here with the Pantera crowd. Do you have a website that details the Ford heads mentioned in this thread?
I will talk with the dyno shop here. The complexity of altitude makes the job a little more challenging. I would like to have 300 horses at the wheels for driving on the street and an occassional outing at the Pueblo track. So, I need 441 horses at the flywheel. 441 x .8 x .86 is about 303. RPM range from 2000 to about 6500.
I will talk with the dyno shop here. The complexity of altitude makes the job a little more challenging. I would like to have 300 horses at the wheels for driving on the street and an occassional outing at the Pueblo track. So, I need 441 horses at the flywheel. 441 x .8 x .86 is about 303. RPM range from 2000 to about 6500.
quote:Rear wheel horse power for a stock or mildly modified Pantera is 220 to 230 bhp. You are in the ball park.
FWIW - Rear wheel horsepower was 249hp on the chassis dyno on my stock original 103,000 mile Pantera. I'd have to dig out the dyno sheet to check the torque and rpm at the peaks.
The only mods are an Edelbrock Performer Intake, Holley 670 Avenger carb, Hall Headers, Mallory Unilite electronic distributor, and MSD Blaster 2 coil. Other than that, it's a bone stock engine with 103,000 miles - actually I think it had 92,000 when I put it on the dyno.
Caio!
Garth