It's not thoughtless speculation on my part at all. It's a free world. Do what you want with your Pantera. Turn it into a taxi cab, a helicopter, a Baja runner.
I don't accept that information carte blanche.
I want to know what went into it, the engineering behind it, etc.
There's another guy selling a similar kit intended for street rods and dune buggies.
He doesn't know what a VSS is.
This thread was also started by Hockey Dude, who if you happen to notice, wanted to build his own.
Are you going to call him cheap too?
Don't bother to go tell me to screw off either David. I don't care if I get a
Christmas card from you or not.
Enjoy your EZ EPS.
Doug,
Sorry if I hit a nerve !!!
I'm not suggesting you should "accept that information carte blanche" but you should gather the facts and information on "the engineering behind it, etc" (your words, not mine) before you start leveling criticisms publically. Of course you can say whatever you want to say, whenever you want to say it but that's not the intent of this forum.
If you really want the facts, why don't you just pick up the phone and call EZ Electric in Holland? They speak fluent English. Right now you're just bad mouthing something you know very little about. If you called them and were satisfied that the engineering behind it was sound, would you buy it?
By the way, I think HockeyDude's installation is impressive.
Sorry if I hit a nerve !!!
I'm not suggesting you should "accept that information carte blanche" but you should gather the facts and information on "the engineering behind it, etc" (your words, not mine) before you start leveling criticisms publically. Of course you can say whatever you want to say, whenever you want to say it but that's not the intent of this forum.
If you really want the facts, why don't you just pick up the phone and call EZ Electric in Holland? They speak fluent English. Right now you're just bad mouthing something you know very little about. If you called them and were satisfied that the engineering behind it was sound, would you buy it?
By the way, I think HockeyDude's installation is impressive.
Ok, guys chill.
EZ is a GOOD kit, please don't misread any of my posts. I just like having my cake and eating it too, so I knew I was going to mod the EZ kit. Plus I have already done a 100% custom interior for my car, and don't have a ZF, so no speedo for the EZ VSS to read. That kind of makes a 1700 dollar kit, which mounts the motor in the cabin in a relatively unknown area for me due to my custom dash, not a logical starting point for my build.
DC electronics/motorsports units are fantastic, their Corsa control box is the best out there for those units, and their standalone and race units are superb. However, cheap they are not.
So I chose a new route, much cheaper, and all custom. Bugs to be worked out, hoping in the future I could eventually get it to point where it was fully adjustable, VSS connected, and programmable with a steering assist curve. As I said many times in this thread, this whole effort maybe a folly, but its my time and money, and I guess my fault for sharing it with the Pantera community.
The steering column support does move, a lot. If you cut it beef it back up. I don't care what kit or non-kit you use. In my opinion if it's cut and not reinforced you have a potential safety issue. Brackets, doublers, whatever. That thing moves nearly 1/16" (stock) on my car with NO load on the steering rack, just turning the steering wheel back and forth with the EPS motor connected (and yes I measured it with a dial indicator). I'd hate to see someone cut it, not reinforce it, and subsequently have it fail.
I did start this thread, and I can say the overall feeling that I got from the community's response was akin to being chastised for striking out on my own instead of buying a kit. I thought this board was for sharing ideas, what good is it if nobody ever tries something new? I thought people would be excited about the possibility of 400 dollar power steering using OEM parts easily accessible in the US. Appears I was mistaken.
I think its time this thread was locked.
EZ is a GOOD kit, please don't misread any of my posts. I just like having my cake and eating it too, so I knew I was going to mod the EZ kit. Plus I have already done a 100% custom interior for my car, and don't have a ZF, so no speedo for the EZ VSS to read. That kind of makes a 1700 dollar kit, which mounts the motor in the cabin in a relatively unknown area for me due to my custom dash, not a logical starting point for my build.
DC electronics/motorsports units are fantastic, their Corsa control box is the best out there for those units, and their standalone and race units are superb. However, cheap they are not.
So I chose a new route, much cheaper, and all custom. Bugs to be worked out, hoping in the future I could eventually get it to point where it was fully adjustable, VSS connected, and programmable with a steering assist curve. As I said many times in this thread, this whole effort maybe a folly, but its my time and money, and I guess my fault for sharing it with the Pantera community.
The steering column support does move, a lot. If you cut it beef it back up. I don't care what kit or non-kit you use. In my opinion if it's cut and not reinforced you have a potential safety issue. Brackets, doublers, whatever. That thing moves nearly 1/16" (stock) on my car with NO load on the steering rack, just turning the steering wheel back and forth with the EPS motor connected (and yes I measured it with a dial indicator). I'd hate to see someone cut it, not reinforce it, and subsequently have it fail.
I did start this thread, and I can say the overall feeling that I got from the community's response was akin to being chastised for striking out on my own instead of buying a kit. I thought this board was for sharing ideas, what good is it if nobody ever tries something new? I thought people would be excited about the possibility of 400 dollar power steering using OEM parts easily accessible in the US. Appears I was mistaken.
I think its time this thread was locked.
My perspective on this is as follows.
This thread was started to show what EPS could be built into the Pantera.
Hockeydude took the route of building his own, sourcing components on his own, and engineering it on his own.
He selected components for his own reasons. Installation required extensive modification to the car.
I found that a very interesting idea from an engineering stand point. It interests me and as such I am looking at alternatives. I thought others would be to?
One alternative that was suggested by another poster was a pre-made kit by EZ. It is a pre-engineered kit and is made for a Pantera application.
It doesn't require as much modification to the car, but some is required.
EZ selected certain components for their own reasons.
They give no explanation or description of the components used.
Considering the price, I presume they are using new and not used components? Neither the pump nor the electronic controls are cheap.
That is all well in good.
There is no way of determining what the durability of that kit is unless it gets broken down for components and those components analyzed individually.
There is more that one manufacturer of these types of components.
The unit used by EZ APPEARS to have an original application from Fiat in the 600 series of cars. It is not manufactured by Fiat.
It makes sense to me, that in leu of actual data from field testing of the application that it is reasonable to extrapolate feedback on the actual components used in the Pantera EZ kit to get a reasonable projection of the expected dependability of those components.
The place to look therefore in my perspective is at the Fiats in which these components were installed by Fiat.
In searching for some sort of guide on that, owners of some (many actually... want to debate what many is too?) Fiats with this EPS system installed have reported durability issues with the power steering system. From blowing out 60 amp fuses often, to the electric motor failing, to loss of power assist.
Services on them are reported to be changing the fuse repeatedly, replacing the drive motor, and replacing the electronic control module.
This has nothing to do with EZ, I NEVER SAID THAT IT DID, it has to do with the dependability of the components and possible unexpected shortcomings of the over all engineering of the EPS unit.
Questioning that here, in "a think tank" impunes no ones integrity. It simply may be the nature of this type of engineering that it can only achieve a certain degree of long term success? I want to know that. Others do too?
At this point to me, it is important to also consider other possible alternatives, i.e., other units available that may work better, fit better, live longer. At least it is to me. I suspect to others as well.
Now as far as someone offering documentation that, "hey, there are 20 of us that bought this and we all love it", is hardly scientific data.
Want to prove it? Do what car manufactures do. Take about a dozen cars, run them up to about 100,000 miles, then compare all the data. The good, the bad and the ugly.
How many Panteras are going to qualify for that? I dare to say none.
What's the total mileage on all of the Pantera cars in this group? I'll bet not much at all?
That comment by you David, reminds me of the snow tire feedback that I read at the Tire Rack. A person posted that he had the best snow tires he ever owned.
Fine. Great. Look at the documentation on the tires. The owner was located in Southern Florida, Miami area, the time of the year was August, he had 50 miles on the tires.
Maybe to you that is great feedback? To me I find it difficult to believe there was much snow and ice to find in August in Miami. Maybe I'm being too harsh on that one huh? Maybe these tires were for the Zamboni machine for the local NHL team?
Now I thought it was apparent in my posting on the EPS that I was making a comparison of components available for this swap? I thought the post was pretty obvious that we were talking about "building your own system" like Hockeydude did? If it wasn't, and I didn't make my posts clear enough, then it is true, I am at fault.
However, I don't think that's what your comment is about at all? You either are ignoring all of that, don't understand that or are just looking for confrontation for your own personal purposes?
In either case it is apparent that I just OVER estimated you totally? That is my mistake and I hope I won't make it again?
This thread was started to show what EPS could be built into the Pantera.
Hockeydude took the route of building his own, sourcing components on his own, and engineering it on his own.
He selected components for his own reasons. Installation required extensive modification to the car.
I found that a very interesting idea from an engineering stand point. It interests me and as such I am looking at alternatives. I thought others would be to?
One alternative that was suggested by another poster was a pre-made kit by EZ. It is a pre-engineered kit and is made for a Pantera application.
It doesn't require as much modification to the car, but some is required.
EZ selected certain components for their own reasons.
They give no explanation or description of the components used.
Considering the price, I presume they are using new and not used components? Neither the pump nor the electronic controls are cheap.
That is all well in good.
There is no way of determining what the durability of that kit is unless it gets broken down for components and those components analyzed individually.
There is more that one manufacturer of these types of components.
The unit used by EZ APPEARS to have an original application from Fiat in the 600 series of cars. It is not manufactured by Fiat.
It makes sense to me, that in leu of actual data from field testing of the application that it is reasonable to extrapolate feedback on the actual components used in the Pantera EZ kit to get a reasonable projection of the expected dependability of those components.
The place to look therefore in my perspective is at the Fiats in which these components were installed by Fiat.
In searching for some sort of guide on that, owners of some (many actually... want to debate what many is too?) Fiats with this EPS system installed have reported durability issues with the power steering system. From blowing out 60 amp fuses often, to the electric motor failing, to loss of power assist.
Services on them are reported to be changing the fuse repeatedly, replacing the drive motor, and replacing the electronic control module.
This has nothing to do with EZ, I NEVER SAID THAT IT DID, it has to do with the dependability of the components and possible unexpected shortcomings of the over all engineering of the EPS unit.
Questioning that here, in "a think tank" impunes no ones integrity. It simply may be the nature of this type of engineering that it can only achieve a certain degree of long term success? I want to know that. Others do too?
At this point to me, it is important to also consider other possible alternatives, i.e., other units available that may work better, fit better, live longer. At least it is to me. I suspect to others as well.
Now as far as someone offering documentation that, "hey, there are 20 of us that bought this and we all love it", is hardly scientific data.
Want to prove it? Do what car manufactures do. Take about a dozen cars, run them up to about 100,000 miles, then compare all the data. The good, the bad and the ugly.
How many Panteras are going to qualify for that? I dare to say none.
What's the total mileage on all of the Pantera cars in this group? I'll bet not much at all?
That comment by you David, reminds me of the snow tire feedback that I read at the Tire Rack. A person posted that he had the best snow tires he ever owned.
Fine. Great. Look at the documentation on the tires. The owner was located in Southern Florida, Miami area, the time of the year was August, he had 50 miles on the tires.
Maybe to you that is great feedback? To me I find it difficult to believe there was much snow and ice to find in August in Miami. Maybe I'm being too harsh on that one huh? Maybe these tires were for the Zamboni machine for the local NHL team?
Now I thought it was apparent in my posting on the EPS that I was making a comparison of components available for this swap? I thought the post was pretty obvious that we were talking about "building your own system" like Hockeydude did? If it wasn't, and I didn't make my posts clear enough, then it is true, I am at fault.
However, I don't think that's what your comment is about at all? You either are ignoring all of that, don't understand that or are just looking for confrontation for your own personal purposes?
In either case it is apparent that I just OVER estimated you totally? That is my mistake and I hope I won't make it again?
quote:striking out on my own instead of buying a kit
Dave,
I commend you for striking out on your own, and even more so for taking the time to document and share your progress and results. Bravo!
Your work looks first rate, and I look forward to future updates as you continue to fine tune your system. Please don't stop sharing this info!
Keep up the good work!
Cheers!
Garth
I second Garth's comment. I also suggest, Dave, that a writeup of what you've done for the POCA Profiles or News Letter (weather or not your a POCA member) would be welcomed!
We all are getting older and if we keep our cars long enough (like I plan to) will eventually need some kind of steering boost. I just passed the big seven O this January and I'm still about as strong as I was 30 years ago (
) but what about when I'm 85?
We all are getting older and if we keep our cars long enough (like I plan to) will eventually need some kind of steering boost. I just passed the big seven O this January and I'm still about as strong as I was 30 years ago (
) but what about when I'm 85?
Guys forgive me but is this Thread getting very academic?
I have the EZ
I did install it my self
I did modify the console slightly
It is reliable so far 10000+ km
I did post photos and comments in various threads
I can't find anything negative to say (I do actually own and drive a car with the said EZ power steering installed)
My advise is:
If you want Power steering, the EZ is a very good option. Buy the kit, install it....... end of story!
BTW I am not a heavy poster on the forum, so perhaps I am not so qualified to give my opinion.
Happy Easter.
Jan
I have the EZ
I did install it my self
I did modify the console slightly
It is reliable so far 10000+ km
I did post photos and comments in various threads
I can't find anything negative to say (I do actually own and drive a car with the said EZ power steering installed)
My advise is:
If you want Power steering, the EZ is a very good option. Buy the kit, install it....... end of story!
BTW I am not a heavy poster on the forum, so perhaps I am not so qualified to give my opinion.
Happy Easter.
Jan
quote:BTW I am not a heavy poster on the forum, so perhaps I am not so qualified to give my opinion.
Certainly not the case!
Sometimes these discussions (in several of the recent forums) remind me of the Indian who was having recurring bad dreams. He had two dreams, that would frequently reoccur.
In the first, he dreamt he was a teepee.
In the second, he dreamt he was a wigwam.
Plagued by these nightmares, he went to the local indian psychologist. After investigating the case, and thinking about it for a while, the psychologist announced:
"I've got it! I have diagnosed your condition!
You are two tents!"
(Get It? Two Tents? Yuck, Yuck)
I would like to see everyone relax, and not get worked up as as we have seen recently. These are just cars.... Of course these are the most awesome cars in the world, but nevertheless....
quote:BTW I am not a heavy poster on the forum, so perhaps I am not so qualified to give my opinion
Jan, if only there were more like you, people that only posted when they actually contributed to the topic of the thread...
And your posting is SHORT and TO THE POINT (sorry for yelling). Wonderful! Keep 'em coming.
BTW, can't you change your avatar to something including your Pantera? If people don't take you seriously, it might be because of the avatar
quote:Originally posted by goodroc:
Guys forgive me but is this Thread getting very academic?
I have the EZ
I did install it my self
I did modify the console slightly
It is reliable so far 10000+ km
I did post photos and comments in various threads
I can't find anything negative to say (I do actually own and drive a car with the said EZ power steering installed)
My advise is:
If you want Power steering, the EZ is a very good option. Buy the kit, install it....... end of story!
BTW I am not a heavy poster on the forum, so perhaps I am not so qualified to give my opinion.
Happy Easter.
Jan
I think too that it is important to share information on this. I agree that more people should post on it too.
There are four EPS system suppliers that I can find...so far. There are probably more?
I am not putting down anyone's attempt to make this work in a Pantera. Not in the slightest. It's a great idea. I'm just shareing information that I came across.
Here's one on the GM system. This one says the GM system typically develops issues in the 30,000 mile range.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/...g_power_electric.htm
As a result of this subject here, I just recently had a discussion with a Chevy service mechanic, who is a friend, on this subject. He said wait, took me into his shop and pulled out four of the GM units. He said, "I pulled these out of the dumpster. We changed these under warranty. I took them to see if there were any parts I could use and since I'm interested in them too, to see if I could find out what's wrong with them and fix them".
GM doesn't fix them. They just change out the entire unit and dump them. Interestingly enough, they don't even send them out to the GM certified rebuilders.
The point is, there are more than a few failures or issues with these systems. It's across the board. It isn't one manufacturer more than another.
The GM's are listed in the US as an area of concern. I don't think GM has recalled them yet, but it looks like the writing on the wall is that they may have too? Ooops. I spoke too soon.
According to one of the articles below GM recalled 1.6 million vehicles with electric power steering. Maybe that's an omen? Or is that an Amen? Hum?
There was only one death reported associated with the failure and as such that is not enough for the NHTSA to order a recall, but it may be too close to call on yes or no right now?
GM has a lot of these units out there and they have the largest exposure.
There are lots of sensors or electronics in the system to fail. A failed electronic sensor can cause the electric motor to fail due to over heating.
The 30,000 mile number with the GM MAY be the key factor on these systems?
Kinda puts a kink in my "build your own" desire and makes me question EVERYONE else's systems with NO particular singling out.
Both GM and Fiat's service manuals refer to "code reading" to analyse the system. Unfortunately PanteraDoug isn't GM or Fiat with their warranty support.
Here are a couple of other related articles.
http://www.consumerreports.org...g-problems/index.htm
http://www.consumeraffairs.com...problems-040114.html
There's more. Seems like the electronics components of this system are having issues with durability.
http://www.jerebeasleyreport.c...wer-steering-defect/
http://www.nbcnews.com/busines...ury-mariners-n117786
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com...er-nhtsa-probe_N.htm
http://www.quality-control.us/INME-PE10008-45940P.pdf
http://www.aboutlawsuits.com/h...roblems-nhtsa-73811/
Same repetitive issues over and over. Seems a reoccurring theme?
Maybe the best course of action, is no course of action? Tough for me working under that dashboard upside down anyway?
Failure at low parking lot speeds is one thing. What happens if the speed sensor fails at 100 mph and all of a sudden I have power steering assist when I don't want to?
I just checked the warranty. I can get a new replacement part free. That is predicated on having to survive the crash first though.
I think I must be too paranoid? Maybe it's the beer?
Charles Dickens used to drink Bass Ale. Said it helped his creativity? I have to give that up. Maybe Bud Light is good for me? Amstal Light tastes better though?
The only comment I have is:
Absolutely no comment!
Absolutely no comment!
quote:Originally posted by goodroc:
The only comment I have is:
Absolutely no comment!
Is that a thumbs up for the Amstal Light? I like it. It's very smooth. Not bitter. Less filling...so I can drink more.
RiverRat,
I have installed that unit in my car for evaluation. If all goes well, we will be adding it to our parts lineup.
Scott
I have installed that unit in my car for evaluation. If all goes well, we will be adding it to our parts lineup.
Scott
Scott, is it speed sensitive like the EZ Electric system?
quote:Scott, is it speed sensitive like the EZ Electric system?
No, BUT, it has a knob that adjusts the level of assist it provides. So you can adjust it to your preference.
So far I am really impressed. Moving around in the driveway you can palm the wheel. When you are performance driving, you can dial down the assist or adjust it wherever you like, no assist - full assist - or anywhere in between.
I like this strategy better than speed assist since I can dial it into what I like...