Fall Pantera Run

David's 1982 GT5.

and my 1971.

Awesome pics Mark! Sorry about the "way overpriced" brunch, but the ride and company were great!

Yes they are great pictures thanks for sharing them.

Awesome pictures! Wish I were there!

Michael

Mark & David,

Good thing it wasn't snowing, you would have lost your cars. LOL...........

all joking aside, gorgeous pics, I wish I could have joined you.

your friend on the DTBB, George

Angelic pictures!

Your two white Panteras look like they're all dressed up for wedding or something. Like bride and groom.

Simply beautiful.

Josh

Very nice indeed, Im gonna get the wheels like on Marks car, just as soon as I sell a house! One of my childhood fantasy's has been driving in the leaves as they blow away behind the car.Just watch out for those wet leaves stuck to the road.....thanks

Thanks for all the nice comments guys.

LPB: the leaves on the road were no problem. The large chunks of mud fallen from tractors doing the fall harvest made for some interesting road texture. I'll spend next weekend pulling the straw and mud from my wheel wells. And those wheels? Yeah, they totally transform the car. Looks 100X better, rides as well and handles like it's on rails. The only down-side I found is that the P-Zero's don't make a screech when you smoke 'em. Just a sound like you're skidding on gravel. Good when there are cops around, but it doesn't scare pedestrians as much.

Josh: OK, I know we’re Canadians and you can pretty much do anything up here, but even WE draw the line at marrying cars...

Michael, George: Come on up! Bettter hurry though, We'll probably have snow in the next few weeks. Hmmm. I can see the "January" calendar photo now... just 4 wheels in the snow...

Those are some real nice photos!

Gentlemen:

You seem to have been more fortunate with your fall weather than I was. Below is a photo of #9517 just outside Banff, in the rain which later turned to wet snow. We took a trip with 25 other exotics but were quickly separated from them because of mechanical problems. The car was fresh from a "down to bare metal" total restoration, and was not properly sorted out before we left (a very long and tedious story). However, I am pleased to report that, even though it is not yet running properly, the new 427 stroker has transformed the car. In short, I found myself literally shaking from adrenaline after getting out of the car after a good run. I am also told that the 3" Mind Train exhaust sounds like "pure sex", and can be heard for many kilometres through the mountain valleys when in full song.

All the best from the West, and I look forward to the day we can get all our cars together!

- Peter

Peter,

The headlights look great! Who made them?

Michael

Hi Peter,

Your car looks great, but then it did before too. Sorry to hear that you had "teething issues" on you first major outing. Not much fun to be stranded in the mountains in the snow with a broken supercar. I hope you can get it well-sorted and really look forward to seeing a gallery of images including that new motor.

Mark

Peter,

What fantastic car. I don't care for black or white much, except for on the GT5's. I have always wanted a GT5, and in my opinion the best colors are White and Black. On stock bodied cars, I like red, yellow and blue. It's funny how the lines of the car affect how colors look different from one style to the next.

I'll trade you my red stock bodied '72!

John

John

Peter, your car looks awesome - wish I could hear that cat purr. Love those lights. I just installed them in mine. Cyboman, they're Vader. Crazy expensive, but damn nice and they actually light up the road. I added some super bright lights in the front air damn and it's a great combination.

After our final fall run in the leaves - great day Mark - I cleaned and polished the car for two days. I got the insurance evaluator in to update the file and add another few bucks to the coverage. (I finally got to use that bag of cool McGuire products I got on the podium in Monterey). Then I carefully (well not so carefully) drove into my sister in law's garage, took out the battery, covered her up, and kissed her goodnight for the winter.

Yes, another season is over. Very sad. But the good news is - for the first time in over 20 years, I have NO WINTER PROJECTS. The car is complete. Holy cow. Something must be wrong?

Umm, we just covered these lights a few days ago.

They're not Vaders..

http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/3350045562/m/5670012163/p/1

Kevin,

Thanks for refreshing my memory!

Michael

Deeb,
Wow.. Driving season is already over?

Surely you'll be tempted to take her out one more time!

Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by Cyboman:
Kevin,

Thanks for refreshing my memory!

Michael

No problem. I think they'll look great on your car!

I've actually grown fond of my '70s frog eye look. Kind of like the extra finger I have. Not real pleasing to the eye, but I'd miss it, if I cut it off.

Kevin

Oops. Sorry about that. Yes, the Vaders were my cheap ($1200!) alternative to Peter's lights!

Now tell me where those mirrors come from? They look great. Do they stay in place, or are you always pushing them back as they flatten in the wind at speed?

Peter, Great looking car!! Where in the west do you live? I'm in Richmond B.C. by Vancouver airport. Have had my 72 for 23 years and just purchased a 74 as well last week. I'm a regular at the Birch Bay meet in Sept. and we also have an "Italian Days" show on Fathers day in North Van. If anyone is ever "out west", give us a call for some Pantera talk.....

Steve

Steve,
Can you contact me: pantera01826@rogers.com

I'd like to hear more about your cars. Thanks, Mark

Thank you, everyone, for all the nice compliments.

In answer to your question, Steve, I live in Charlie Lake which is just north of Fort St. John. I expect I am vying with some of the guys in Sweden for the “northernmost Pantera” award. I have not attended Birch Bay because it is a 2,400 km round trip from here. Send me an e-mail at phavlik@awink.com so we can perhaps get together for a coffee next time I’m in Vancouver on business.

As requested by Mark, here is a photo of the engine (I tried putting up a photo album but can’t get past a weird error message). It is a PI Motorsports 427 that Jerry Sackett told me produces about 540 hp. Jerry sent me a dyno print-out that showed the same engine putting out 434 hp at 5500 rpm and 465 ft. lbs. at 4,000 rpm, both at the rear wheels in a GT-40 application (i.e. with the same ZF transaxle). The motor features H-beam rods, CNC ported Avenger stage 2 cylinder heads, stainless steel valves with chromoly retainers, full ARP bolt kit, custom hydraulic roller lifters and cam, 28 oz. steel balancer, forged crank, lightened aluminum flywheel, high torque starter, aluminum high volume water pump and so on.

I am particularly pleased with the way my exhaust turned out. I did a lot of research on the best exhaust system for this engine, and found that every expert had a different story. I did not find anybody very convincing until I spoke with Fred Matsumoto. He pointed out that all the 2 ½” or less exhausts being marketed by the various vendors were not designed for a stroker with this kind of horsepower. It turns out that one of the best known “low restriction” exhausts may even cause you to lose power over the stock system! Fred advised me to go to a full 3” system.

Now, without exception, every vendor I talked to, and everything I read on this BB or on the e-mail forum, said that it would not be possible to fit a 3” pipe between the A-arms and the half-shafts. Many dire consequences were predicted, and there was a good deal of sniffing that I was impudent for questioning the established wisdom. Fred’s reply was to simply flip the half shafts, because they are about ½” smaller in diameter on one side than the other. Ingenious! And it worked perfectly. The next problem was with the collector on the PI Motorsports headers, which tapered to a 2 ½” flange. Again, after I was told that nothing could or should be done about it, Fred simply suggested cutting the collector back until the opening was big enough to weld on a full 3” collector. No problem!

By good fortune, Fred just happened to have four original Mind-Train mufflers left, which he sent me along with some resonators and a sample tip. He also instructed me on how to have a crossover fabricated for enhanced performance and noise reduction. I think the installation and fabrication turned out well, but I am still going to have it adjusted so that the mufflers tuck in and up more, and so that the tips end evenly with the bumpers as with the original ANSA tips.

So now I have the only Pantera I know of with 90 degree headers and a full 3” exhaust with crossover. And, let me tell you, it sounds so good that it sends shivers up your spine when you fire the motor up. It is loud enough to make your teeth chatter, and cause women to clutch their children to their breast.

The car is going to Calgary in a month or two for a day-long dyno tuning session. Then it goes back to the body shop for a final wet sand and polish. I have a list of over 40 issues to sort out by spring and in time for the next exotic car tour. Then it will be interesting to find out how it holds up against the other cars on all those Alberta and British Columbia mountain roads. There will be a Saleen S7, an Enzo, some Murcielagos and Diablos, and at least one F-40 coming along, so we shall see (said the blind man).

Now, as for David’s question regarding the mirrors, I’m glad for the opportunity to vent. They are stock, and they are the bane of my existence. At lower speeds they vibrate so much that you can’t see anything, and at higher speeds (anything over 180 km/hr) they droop. I tried tightening them until I was sure the bolts would strip, the shop tried drilling and tapping set screws, I have tried pleading, threatening and crying like a baby. It’s just no good. They will have to be removed and thrown on that increasingly high pile of discarded original parts that I am saving just in case I ever go off my medications and decide to return the car to stock.

I was originally worried that going to glass pack bottle mufflers and a crossover would not look good, but I have decided the Mind-Train system actually looks better than the old ANSA exhaust. What do you guys think?

Peter, your car looks awesome. Nothing we'd love more than heading west for a run with some of your big guns. Anyone want to head out in the spring? I'd love to hear that nice exhaust. Send us an audio file. What half shafts are you using that are different sized left and right?

As for the mirrors, mine are also stock but yours look like they are mounted differently. If you take the mirror assembly out, you can tighten the springloaded adjustment until there is no movement and no vibration. With a high rise intake and rear wing, there is no rear view at all. So to see around the rear fender flares I added those little convex stickon mirrors on both sides and amazingly enough the image in them is crystal clear. They let me see anything around me in all directions - even protects my nice mags from scraping the sidealk when parking.


They don't droop but swing back in the wind. I finally resolved it with a series of lock washers and rubber washers glued to both sides of metal washers. Solid as a rock, until I had to move them to get the cover on tight when I put her away. I'll probably have to start all over in the spring.

David:

I had a look at some of the pictures of your car that I have saved, and you are right that my mount is different from yours. I also looked at some other photos of late model cars and found that sometime in the late ‘80s DeTomaso started occasionally mounting the mirrors lower down on the door as on my car (on both GT5s and GT5-Ss). Why, I don’t know because I think there is much more rigidity for the mount at the top of the door. On the side, the metal panel flexes which allows for much more vibration. In my case, we tried welding on a large backing plate, but that has not helped.

I know you have tucked your baby away for the season, but if you happen to get an opportunity I'd be grateful if you could shoot me some photos of your lock washer and rubber washer solution. I'm having trouble visualizing it. If I can't solve this problem, I will have to take the original mirrors off, fill in the hole, repaint the door and install a glue-on set onto the quarter window. I don’t want to do that unless I absolutely have to.

As for the question about the half-shafts, I apologize for having created confusion with my poor choice of words. We did not swap the half shafts from left to right. We simply flipped or reversed each one. My half shafts are the factory originals.

BTW, thanks for the tip about the convex mirrors. I will definitely add them to my car.

While looking at the photos of your car, David, I noticed you have a slick crankcase breather/PCV system installed. My motor came from PI Motorsports with only a couple of breather filters for the valve covers, which then proceeded to puke oil. True, the oil dripping on the headers created a nice smoke screen to hide me from any pursuing law enforcement authorities, and the coat of oil and oily grime all over the motor, transaxle and rear of the car will prevent rust, but I still think maybe this is not such a great idea... So where can I get a setup like yours?

- Peter

Peter,

Those don't look like any stock mirrors that I have ever seen.

Michael

Peter,
Check out Mike Dailey's website. He ended up installing the GT-5 style mirrors.

Great info.

http://www.panteraplace.com/page55.htm

Kevin

Michael:

You may well be right. When I looked at the other cars, I was looking at the mirror mounting location, not the mirror itself. Mine do appear less rounded; rather more square and angular. The stalk also appears thicker. It would be great if they were not stock, because I could then discard them with a clean conscience. I might even be tempted to throw them on the floor and do a victory dance on them!

If anyone can give me a definitive answer on this question, I will be most grateful.

In the meantime, if you are interested, the cars in my photo collection having the same mirror mounting location as mine are:

#9504 – GT5-S, Th. Moser, Switzerland
#9516 – 1989 GT5-S, Mick Parsley, U.K.
#9533 – GT5-S, Mark Strickland – U.K.
#9535 – GT5-S, U.K.
1989 GT5-S, Gavin Hutton, U.K.

Thanks, Michael!

- Peter

Peter,

I've also seen the stock mirrors mounted on the side of the door, rather than on the top ledge. I think they look better mounted on top. They flow with the body lines better, and don't look 'tacked on'.

I can't imagine why the factory would change that. Maybe it was a trend at some time.

My '86 5-S #9434, has the stock mirrors mounted on the doors top ledge.

Michael

Peter, it seems like you covered everything I was going to suggest. However, I still think this is fixable without having to change the mirrors (or dance on them). With my baby all tucked away it's a little difficult to take photos of my mirrors now, but I don't think it applies because your mount is different. See below and send me a pic of the joint. The set screws sounds like a good idea, but they would have to go right through to hold. I still think my combination of rubber and lock washers might work.

It's a real frustrating pain (and can be very dangerous too), when you can't see properly out of the mirrors in your Pantera! My passenger mirror is adjusted all the way up and out, and I still can't see sh*t! I may go with David's 'fish eye' solution in the Spring.

Michael

Mark, Deeb I going to eat Marks wheels, from around the snow..just wanted to bring it back up..

Deeb: Here is a photo of the joint with the rubber boot removed. Next to the mirror there is a plastic ball joint which is the source of the problem. I have tried a set screw, but short of fusing the joint permanently, I am at a loss as to how to fix this problem. Any advice would be appreciated.

Michael: It turns out that my mirrors may be stock after all. Check out this picture of 1982 Pantera GT5 #9207, currently for sale at John Scotti Automotive in Montreal.

I have seen some Mickey Mouse stuff on my car, no offense to Mickey, but that plastic ball joint takes the cake. I can see the little hex set screw you tired to use. Replacing the whole ball joint with a new adjustable bracket is probably the way to go. I can drop by Scotty's and see how this could be done. In the meantime, as a last resort, locate where the mirror should be placed, exactly, then remove the set screw and drill right through the ball joint and put bigger bolt through with a nut on the other end. I'll let you know what I find at Scotty's.

How much was the silver GT5 going for??In US Dollars? Nice

Hawaii:

The GT5 is listed at $79,500 Can which at the nominal exchange rate posted by the Bank of Canada today is $67,752 USD. You can find the ad in the general inventory section of John Scotti's web site at http://www.johnscotti.com/pages/main_exotics.html

John Scotti is Canada's George Stauffer. I am told he brought in about ten cars during the '80s, and this is one of them. He has re-sold it a number of times. If I recall correctly, the car was recently freshened up, including an engine rebuild.

I am now convinced that the mirrors on my car are, in fact, stock. Pantera Parts Connection shows a mirror on their web site that appears identical. They call it a "Vitaloni Bravo." After looking around for a while, I have found photos of a couple of other Panteras with this type of mirror, including Richard Barkley's.

I think I may have also found a solution to the looseness problem. I may be able to drill a hole in the plastic between the ball joint and the mirror housing, and run a bolt through. The theory is that by tightening this bolt I can squeeze the joint which should stiffen it. This will have the added advantage of my being able to tighten it again as the cheap plastic ball joint inevitably wears more in the future.

Here is a photo of the POCA Profiles 2001 #3 cover car. It is the "DeTomaso of the Quarter, a 1971 Pantera belonging to Richard Barkley.

Judging by a pre-restoration photo included in the POCA article, the mirror may not be the original.

That particular Vitaloni mirror was never oem, but two other Vitaloni mirrors were, the first being the "California" and the second being the "Turbo" (I'm not 100% sure of the name of that second mirror, old age is catchng up with my ability to remember)

Those mirrors were oem on European delivered Panteras from the late seventies until the end of production. (Excluding the Pantera Si, which used a different mirror)

Panteras manufactured during the Ford era were not equipped with Vitaloni mirrors.

Your friend on the DTBB, George

George,

Your ability to recall things always amazes me and especially considering what your alcohol consumption must be via those "buttery nipples". Then again, if Darwin was right the alcohol should selectively kill off the lower order and less useful brain cells and hence may actually help your memory That's my excuse for being a drinkin' man!

That second mirror would have been the "Baby Turbo" of which I just managed to pick up a pair on ebay for $30 The old chrome Ford mirror just won't cut it and I definitely need to see what's going on out the passenger side as I'm passing those F cars

Julian

Here's another car with the Vitaloni "Bravo" style mirrors. It's the 1980 GTS/Group 4 car belonging to Greg Sullivan as featured in the 2000 No.4 edition of the POCA Profiles Magazine.

I wonder if Greg Sullivan or any other Pantera owner running these mirrors might be able to confirm whether they came that way from the factory. It's not that I don't trust George's advice (I do), but DeTomaso was notorious for raiding the spare parts bin, resulting in odd combinations on some cars. Some people go so far as to say that, in later years especially, there is no such thing as "stock" because each car was being hand built to custom order, and often odd parts substitutions occurred as regular parts either ran out or other factors came into play.

Peter,

Sorry about the delay, but I finally got to Scottis and looked at that silver GT5. The mirrors are different from mine and yours, but the mounting is exactly like almost every other GT5 I've seen. It mounts to the top of the door panel, not on the side like on yours.

My suggestion to drill through the ball should solve your problem and be a lot easier than relocating the mounting to the top and having to repaint your doors.

Deeb:

If you refer back to my November 7th post on this thread, you will see there are a number of GT5-S Panteras in Europe with the mirror mounted on the side of the door rather than the top (although, granted, mine is the only GT5 I have seen with this arrangement). I have attached a photo of #9504 belonging to Thomas Moser from Switzerland as one example. The way my mirror is constructed, and I suspect the way the one on the John Scotti car is constructed, allows it to be mounted in either place. Since you have the "Turbo" style Vitaloni on your car, yes, the John Scotti GT5 will be different from yours. However, my car does not have the Turbo Vitaloni mirrors, but rather ones that appear identical to the John Scotti car insofar as I can tell from the photos they sent me. That is why I got to thinking that, as unusual as my mirrors are, prehaps they are OEM after all.

Thanks for the advice on fixing my drooping problem (OK, OK, I know I'm leaving myself open to bad Viagra jokes here), and I will keep you posted on the outcome of my repair attempts.

By the way, what did you think of the John Scotti GT5? I had an offer to buy my car from a fellow in Vancouver, but I want to keep my car so I referred him to John Scotti. Therefore, I hope the John Scotti car is in as good a condition in real life as it appears from the photos and the salesman's glowing description.

The car looks stock (eg; nothing's been done to it). And although there are 18 photos of it on their post, none show the engine. Which tells me it's nothing to look at. And nothing to depend on either. I'd keep yours any day.

I would havce spent more time there investigating the car, but they asked me to move my truck, which they advised me was parked on the grass at their entrance. Actually, I was parked on top of 2 feet of ice and snow "above the grass" and there were 4" puddles of rain in their parking lot and I was wearing sneakers. Sheesh. I remember Scotti when he worked out of an old shitbox garage on Industrial Ave. Such is progress.

Here is a link to Scotti's GT5 $10k ins servicing. http://driving.canada.com/buy/used/details.spy?carid=348640#

do you happen to have the complete picture of this red car with rivitted on flares? Sure would like to see it if you do.
Thanks
Emery
emery@hawaii.rr.com

quote:

Originally posted by Peter H:
Here's another car with the Vitaloni "Bravo" style mirrors. It's the 1980 GTS/Group 4 car belonging to Greg Sullivan as featured in the 2000 No.4 edition of the POCA Profiles Magazine.

I wonder if Greg Sullivan or any other Pantera owner running these mirrors might be able to confirm whether they came that way from the factory. It's not that I don't trust George's advice (I do), but DeTomaso was notorious for raiding the spare parts bin, resulting in odd combinations on some cars. Some people go so far as to say that, in later years especially, there is no such thing as "stock" because each car was being hand built to custom order, and often odd parts substitutions occurred as regular parts either ran out or other factors came into play.

Emery:

Here is a photo, as per your request. There is a colour centrefold of this car in this POCA Profiles edition, but it is too large for my flatbed scanner. If you want more details, I suggest you order the back issue from the POCA store: http://www.panteraclub.com/store/backissues.html

- Peter

Deeb:

Thanks to Mikee's link, I was able to have a closer look at the John Scotti GT5. The engine bay looks dirty but otherwise not too bad. The salesman told me the motor had been freshened up a year ago, and it does look like it has fresh paint on it. Of course, the real questions are how the engine actually runs, what shape the ZF is in, what the car looks like from underneath and what lurks under that new paint job.

Someone installed an aftermarket shift knob and pedal covers. The heater a/c control is the early model, not the Maserati unit that's in every post-1980 GT5 and GT5-S Pantera I have seen. The engine has an aftermarket air cleaner and spreader bar, and I don't think those deck lid struts are original. Also, the valve covers look aftermarket to me, although I have never been clear on whether DeTomaso ever installed ones like them at the factory. Mine were just regular stamped metal.

The interior looks pretty worn, and someone has butchered the dash and door panels with aftermarket stereo speakers. The photos that are still missing are of the front trunk and the rear luggage tub. They appear neither in the web photos nor in the ones the salesman sent me...

Of course you are right that neither of us should be trading our cars in for this one – there simply is no comparison. But then again, we have spent dumpsters of money and untold hours in restoring and upgrading our cars. Unless there are unseen rust issues, someone willing to invest time and money in the John Scotti car could have a nice Pantera at the end of the day. As a friend of mine likes to say, "there are few problems in life that more money won't fix!"

Thanks for taking the time to go down there and have a look at those mirrors for me. I appreciate the trouble you went through, and regret you were subjected to such ridiculous abuse. With that kind of attitude toward potential customers, it's no wonder that GT5 is still sitting in John Scotti's showroom.

BTW, I am flying to Vancouver today and will be meeting with Steve Meausette, who has a radical Weber equipped, bundle of snakes exhaust GT5-style 1972 Pantera that he has modified for a clamshell rear hatch! Steve and I will also try to hook up with Herman Leong who has a white 1982 GT5 that was featured in PI Magazine (and is another car originally imported and sold by John Scotti, incidentally). Steve also wants to take me to Burnaby to Wes Stinson's house to see his collection. Wes has three Panteras including a rare factory Group Three. I plan to take some photos and to ask Steve, Wes and Herman if I may post a few after I get back.

- Peter

Peter
Thanks for the red picture. I'll be mounting fiberglass flares very soon and still debating in my mind how to attach them....with or with out rivets.
Mark-AKA-Devil-if you are out there, I would love to see a side view of your black riveted flared car too! Thanks for the trouble.

Relax on The Scotti Bashing . I take a look at that car every time i go there . It is really sharp looking , however iam not a fan of black interior. You know when you buy a car from this place it is in pristine condition. KM's a bit high on this car. Is your buddy really considering buying a GT5 iam selling mine in April.

Detomaso83:

Post some pictures and information. I will forward them.

- Peter

Peter whats your email?

My address is:

[my initial]havlik[at]pris.ca

Sorry about the code, but I hate spam.

Hi Mark, enjoying your photos. I will be in Montreal from Feb 24th-Mar.4th. Possibly in Ottawa for a few day with my son visiting museums. Love to see/talk P's with you. I am "absorbing" as much as I can at this point. I purchased my car a few months ago.

Blake,

I'd be happy to meet and chat and show you my car (sadly, no driving with this weather...see pic). Contact me by e-mail with your schedule and let's get together. You should try to meet David (DEEB) in Montreal. His knowledge and love of Panteras (and his GT5) are legendary.

pantera01826-AT-rogers.com

Mark

thanks Mark...will let you know when I am in Ottawa(a few days in advance). Also thanks for David's contact info...will touch base with him.
The weather in my area had been quite mild until today...I have had my car out for various quick "on and off exit ramp" jonts over the past month. Just can't overcome the temptation when exiting the house by the garage.
Note of interest...John Scotti gas two GTS's in his Brossard, Qc. location(this is apart from the one he displayed on the website). I saw them in the fall. One looks in pretty decent shape and the other is a bit rough.
Talk to you soon,
Blake

Blake, that was my e-mail address. When you send me yours, I'll forward it on to David in case he doesn't want his posted here (although I think he has in the past...)

Hey Blake,

I was travelling a bit - Paris and then Atlanta - both nice and warm with dry roads. I even saw a nice GT5S in Paris! This snow is killing me.

Let me know when you're coming. Maybe we can drop by Scotti where I bought both of my cars quite a few years ago.

My email is dberman@canspan.com

sounds good! I am in Montreal the evening of Feb. 24th. Visiting Mom in St. Lambert...next door to Scotti (Brossard) where I saw the two GTS's in the fall. Love to see the P he has at the main Mtl. showroom. Will contact you via email. I may take my car out for a rip to Banff tomorrow....main roads(TC) are dry as a bone. Just can't resist!