quote:Originally posted by larryw:
feints enthusiasm
Try again: feigns enthusiasm
Try again: feigns enthusiasm
Try again: feigns enthusiasm
quote:Lets face it some people have a "design sense" a sense for proportion and scale and some don't. Those that don't should not re-design a work of art. Ask your self can I design a better looking car than Tom Tjaarda? Pinnifarina? Bertone? Zagato? Giugaro? If you can run with the big boys go for it.
Unfortunately, those with little design sense often do not recognize their weaknesses....
That's how we ended up with the cartoonish vans and velvet Elvis paintings in the first place...
No, I'm good. Feints are maneuvers designed to distract or mislead.
Faints enthusiasm
Feigns enthusiasm
Feints enthusiasm
I just want to say...I REALLY LIKE this website!!!...Mark
Feigns enthusiasm
Feints enthusiasm
I just want to say...I REALLY LIKE this website!!!...Mark
Now, now! Let's all play nice.
It's not the modifications that have hurt the Pantera's value as a marque, but rather the handful of "knuckle-dragger" owners over the years who made all those tasteless modifications and who pride themselves on being anti-Ferrari, anti-establishment bad-boys who have tarnished the image of the marque and all Pantera owners (by association).
And FWIW, I have seen a number of bastardized Ferraris, Corvettes, Maseratis and Lamborghinis that have now been returned to stock condition because they're worth soooo much more in pristine original restored condition.
And just to clarify... I may not agree with some of the modifications we've seen performed on Panteras, but I DO APPRECIATE excellent craftsmanship and attention to detail! It is your car, so do with it what you want. Just do it well! And save all the original parts so the next caretaker can put it back if s/he desires, or sell those parts to someone else on this forum who could use them (just don't throw them away!).
It's not the modifications that have hurt the Pantera's value as a marque, but rather the handful of "knuckle-dragger" owners over the years who made all those tasteless modifications and who pride themselves on being anti-Ferrari, anti-establishment bad-boys who have tarnished the image of the marque and all Pantera owners (by association).
And FWIW, I have seen a number of bastardized Ferraris, Corvettes, Maseratis and Lamborghinis that have now been returned to stock condition because they're worth soooo much more in pristine original restored condition.
And just to clarify... I may not agree with some of the modifications we've seen performed on Panteras, but I DO APPRECIATE excellent craftsmanship and attention to detail! It is your car, so do with it what you want. Just do it well! And save all the original parts so the next caretaker can put it back if s/he desires, or sell those parts to someone else on this forum who could use them (just don't throw them away!).
quote:
Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
... I just want to say...I REALLY LIKE this website ...
Mikael I appreciated the effort put into your original post. I realize your topic was taken way off-track about page 4, but I was cautious in deciding how to precede. I didn't want to stop it as long as everyone was communicating respectfully, it seemed members needed to get some stuff off their chests. Group therapy?
When I attend Pantera events, there are always guys on both sides of the table present, it seems we're able to enjoy each other's company, eat a meal together, and have a few drinks together. We can behave cordially like that here (virtual reality) in the forums as well. There must not be two factions within our hobby, i.e. the "show room stock" faction verses the "modified" faction. Please lets all work to prevent that type of divisiveness from entering our hobby. Statistically the preferences of the vast majority of owners fall somewhere between the extremes of showroom stock cars and highly personalized/customized cars. However a person chooses to experience De Tomaso ownership matters not, the bottom line is we are all De Tomaso enthusiasts. We should respect each other, and include each other in this hobby. Nobody should feel excluded. Please let that be the goal of each and every one of us.
For most people ownership of a De Tomaso automobile is the fulfillment of a dream, each person's dream should be allowed to unfold as they have imagined it. We have come together here in these forums to keep these cars on the road and to keep those dreams alive.
There was a time when the guys who prefer showroom original cars were silenced in these forums, they were too discouraged, or too afraid, to contribute to the forums. Its is no longer that way, and I hope you guys who prefer customizing your cars understand you must not defend your position so strongly that you again silence the guys who prefer originality. My feelings and opinions are irrelevant, I am equally protective of the rights of those who prefer showroom stock, those who prefer customization and everyone in between. These forums exist for the benefit of all De Tomaso owners and enthusiasts. Everyone should feel welcome to contribute without fear of public attack (which is referred to as flaming).
When members express themselves disrespectfully, that's when I have to step in. I know moderation upsets some people, please understand its never the ideas I'm trying to suppress, its the manner in which people are communicating them. These forums are read by a bunch of people, its a resource for a wide variety of people all over the world. Debbie and I do the best we can to provide the best resource possible for all of us.
When members can express differing opinions in an adult way (without disrespecting those having opposing opinions), its very very cool. I appreciate the effort and attitude put into that sort of communication. I'm proud of everyone for keeping their posts civil! Thank You. It is the high point of these forums.
Hello Mikael,
Thank you for taking the time to post on the forum. I read your article and the entire posting.
First of all let me say that I enjoyed your thoughts and I understand why you wrote what you wrote. I also understand the why some people wrote what they wrote.
It is why I work in the field that I am in, Field Engineering for over 30 years. A product is designed, for a purpose, then sold to the masses. (Pick any product!) What the masses do with the product is up to them. Sometimes people find ways to utilize the product beyond the design. Sometimes they modify the product at a cost of reducing the original design. In other words you want it to run faster then it will have a shorter lifespan. (Example: Dragster engines are torn down after each run. While that old Dodge slant 6 may run forever.)
Engineering is a critical part of the design process.
People pay my company a lot of money for me to show up and correct something they “did” to the product we designed because they wanted it to do something it was not intended for or they did not understand how it really works, so they “fixed it”. I correct the product for their application or I replace the product with something more suitable for their application, stating that... the company pays me to go and fix something they designed (or our vendor) that they made cheaper and in the long run did not work very well.
I took your article to mean; that first you look at the big picture, then see if the equipment is as designed, if not. correct it to “as designed”. If that does not solve the issue then look for a better solution if one is available, test the new solution to see if it suits the application and solves the issue. Our Cars are our hobby we like to tinker with them, when it is done we might as well sell it and get another project, my car will never be done, I will always want to make it better, (wash it at the end before I die). It is not for sale.
Some people look at the glass as half full, some people think it is half empty. Engineers think the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
PS Garth you know me, and the pictures were spot on funny.
Thank you for taking the time to post on the forum. I read your article and the entire posting.
First of all let me say that I enjoyed your thoughts and I understand why you wrote what you wrote. I also understand the why some people wrote what they wrote.
It is why I work in the field that I am in, Field Engineering for over 30 years. A product is designed, for a purpose, then sold to the masses. (Pick any product!) What the masses do with the product is up to them. Sometimes people find ways to utilize the product beyond the design. Sometimes they modify the product at a cost of reducing the original design. In other words you want it to run faster then it will have a shorter lifespan. (Example: Dragster engines are torn down after each run. While that old Dodge slant 6 may run forever.)
Engineering is a critical part of the design process.
People pay my company a lot of money for me to show up and correct something they “did” to the product we designed because they wanted it to do something it was not intended for or they did not understand how it really works, so they “fixed it”. I correct the product for their application or I replace the product with something more suitable for their application, stating that... the company pays me to go and fix something they designed (or our vendor) that they made cheaper and in the long run did not work very well.
I took your article to mean; that first you look at the big picture, then see if the equipment is as designed, if not. correct it to “as designed”. If that does not solve the issue then look for a better solution if one is available, test the new solution to see if it suits the application and solves the issue. Our Cars are our hobby we like to tinker with them, when it is done we might as well sell it and get another project, my car will never be done, I will always want to make it better, (wash it at the end before I die). It is not for sale.
Some people look at the glass as half full, some people think it is half empty. Engineers think the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
PS Garth you know me, and the pictures were spot on funny.
quote:Originally posted by Pantera 4134:
To each their own I guess, but these body mods along with non Ford motors are just wrong. And best left to kit cars.
If anyone wonders why Pantera values have never been close to what they should be, you only have to look at Garth's pictures.Sadly our cars are often not taken seriously by collectors and enthusiasts because of these examples. This will continue to diminish overall Pantera values. The exceptions being stock or easily returned to stock.
That said I did not buy my Panteras as investments. And I enjoy the modifications I made that have improved performance and reliability.
quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Nothing could be further from the truth as your statement.
Every altered Pantera only INCREASES the value of stock Panteras, as a "True" enthusiast/collector is NOT swayed by, nor is their appreciation diminished by the modifications of other Panteras.
To me, every grossly altered Pantera disrespectfully diminishes the marque. Fine for some, has been a long-standing practice in the Pantera community. Seen more as the rule than the exception. The sheer volume of Garth66's well-detailed posts/photos is how many perceive the Pantera. The 'Anything goes' mentality has had a long-term negative impact on value. My opinion.
quote:Originally posted by Pantera 4134:
And how much are the bastardized "E" types with GM engines bringing compared to original motors ? How many "F" cars or Lambos have hideous body changes. If they did their market value would be far less with almost no demand.
And yes Mars for every sickly modified Pantera it helps escalate the value of stock/near stock Panteras. But Panteras as a whole should be worth far greater amounts.
My point is that Panteras that were produced in small numbers, with arguably(biased) unmatched styling and performance are still highly under valued. With investors (Not enthusiasts) driving values of most any collectible car to pre recession dollars and beyond Panteras should all be six figure cars.
Agree completely with 4134. It's not the individual, thoughtful upgrades from passionate owners that stifles value, it's the overdone cars that have made the Pantera market guilty by association.
Mikael's original post respects the original design function of the car, to sensitively preserve the intent without resorting to modifications. I 'modded' my Ferrari 512TR (blasphemy!) by adding better (gold) connections throughout the electrical system and discretely cooling the fuse box area. Both worked to keep the wiring from melting, both virtually invisible. The car brought full retail when sold, with full disclosure of changes.
Sure, it's admittedly a fine line, but when mods get out of hand, the market and value decreases. In my estimation, 'value' is not only in dollars, but also a scorekeeper of market respect.
Most of you (not me!) could 'upgrade' or improve the function of any old car, using tons of now-available fixes, yet the value - a fluid thing and I'm speaking generally here - would mostly decrease in the market. A modded vintage Ferrari, Maserati, Jag, Porsche, Corvette gets scrutinized to the nth degree leaving it's 'value' to be determined individually, and at great difficulty. Thus, most pass, paying more for the more stock examples.
I greatly respect the Pantera for what it was at the time, hastily conceived or no, lacking 'perfection' of course. Had Mikael's assertions today been the norm of yesterday, I feel the Pantera preservationists (me among them) would see greater overall respect and thus values for the cars.
Yet a healthy debate is a good debate.
I long for the day that Panteras step out of the shadow of a 'Poor man's Ferrari' and into the light as a 'Practical man's GT-40'.
quote:I long for the day that Panteras step out of the shadow of a 'Poor man's Ferrari' and into the light as a 'Practical man's GT-40'.
As I comtemplate and plan for returning the car I bought 30 years ago and took apart. I am begining to think it IS no longer the "Poor man's ferrari" as this poor boy might have a toy he can no loner afford!
much less modify
much less modify
PLEASE!, PLEASE!!, PLEASE!!!...Stop the Madness!!!!...If a person can afford a Mini Van, a person CAN afford a DeTomaso Pantera...Markquote:Originally posted by JFB #05177:
As I comtemplate and plan for returning the car I bought 30 years ago and took apart. I am begining to think it IS no longer the "Poor man's ferrari" as this poor boy might have a toy he can no loner afford!
much less modify
http://www.autoblog.com/buy/20...rysler-Town_Country/
Is that a stock or modified mini van?
People should not do modifications to mini-vans!
It will decrease the value of the marque!
Rocky
It will decrease the value of the marque!
Rocky
quote:Originally posted by Rocky:
People should not do modifications to mini-vans!
It will decrease the value of the marque!
Rocky
quote:Originally posted by 1Rocketship:quote:Originally posted by Rocky:
People should not do modifications to mini-vans!
It will decrease the value of the marque!
RockyTHANKS Rocky!!!...That was FUNNY!!!...Mark
Seriously, you people are RUINING the Mini Van market as we know it.
Thank goodness someone is!
As long as they don't put a Chrysler engine in a Ford van I am good!
quote:As long as they don't put a Chrysler engine in a Ford van I am good!
quote:You mean to tell me that a spyder mini van is not worth more that an stock mini van.
Looks like one of them Eye-talian spyder conversions by that Scaglietti outfit.
I'm weighing in a bit late but being one of the biggest modifiers among the group, thought I'd put forth some possible improvements of the older and larger among us. Would headroom improving dropped floor pans or passenger leg room improving bulkhead reduction kit be considered mark detouring changes? Or would such changes be considered age related girth improving positive mods. We simply do not look the same in the mirror these days. If our beloved Pantera cars could see, I wonder what they would see after 40m years of automobile life.
Long way to go for a laugh--=I know.