Forum etiquette

quote:

Originally posted by Vereeken:
George, I do not post much on this board due to my Pantera project being held hostage by a seller who was far from honest but I do follow the threads. If the forum would have allowed to post bad deals and disputes I could have done my homework and would perhaps have steered clear from buying the project pantera at first.

While such disputes are often terrible to watch they at least give me the chance to make my own decision as I am 6.000 miles away.
In the Porsche world this vendor bashing has helped me to steer clear from 2 notourious companies.

So this is my plead to allow disputes to be fought out in public. I hope most of us are intelligent enough to make there own decision based on what is written.

Kr

Michel

Totally agree. We should be able to make our own conclusions.
Most forums do allow these threads. But this is Geo's forum so he can and does make the rules.

Check out the antiquated Real Big Mail List on this topic.

http://realbig.com/pipermail/d.../2010-June/date.html

As much as I can appreciate wanting to know if a vendor is honest - and I too go out looking for information about people's experience with vendors and products before I make purchases - this particular forum has it's rules, and George wears the Stetson and carries the 6-shooters, so he gets to enforce the rules.

Whether the rules are just to keep peace among the folks who visit here, or to keep the forum and everyone in it from being sued every time they turn around I don't know - perhaps it's a bit of both.

Now, if someone wanted to create something separate from this community for Vendor Ratings that allowed folks the ability to rate on a scale of 1-5 Helpfulness, Promptness, Courtesy... and maybe 100 characters for write-in comments, maybe that would be useful ... You can tell I've been on e-Bay
(or maybe George would like to do it within the community somewhere ... dunno, just a thought)

quote:

Originally posted by Pantera 4134:
Totally agree. We should be able to make our own conclusions.
Most forums do allow these threads.

Most forums DO NOT allow grievances to be aired like this. That's a totally erroneous statement.

What you suggest doesn't work in the real world, it drives good people away. Unless the purpose of a forum is specifically stated to be debate, the people who join a forum do so for information, camaraderie and entertainment ... not conflict. With those forums whose stated purpose is debate, the topics debated are ideas, not the ethics of specific people.

There is the topic of legal repercussions you don't address. Do you want to pay $50 month each so I can afford to hire legal counsel & insurance to cover lawsuits? It also serves to smear the reputation of good people because anyone could post a bitch about anyone, and I do not have the resources to research each and every claim.

This forum isn't moderated 24 hours per day, very few are. But that's the kind of moderation required if debate is going to be allowed.

Yes ... this forum is run differently than POCA's forum/mailing list. We have a higher standard, we expect people to be respectful of one another. Its not a free-for-all, people can feel safe to participate without being attacked. That's the way Dave ran it, and I intend to keep it that way.

-G

Under the rules of this forum, we are free to post our pleasurable experiences with the Pantera vendors, but not the bad ones. Sadly this policy creates a skewed and incomplete view of our vendors.

Therefore, I suggest we all refrain from posting any positive vendor reviews. That will at least keep the tables balanced.

I further suggest when any member wishes to obtain feedback on any vendor's reputation they post a thread seeking private feedback from other members regarding their experience with that vendor.

That will allow a free exchange of positive and negative views and not be in conflict with the rules of this forum.

Larry

I also don't post very much on this forum, although the vast amount of information about these amazing cars we own has been invaluable
to me in rebuilding my own cat. That said, I feel knowing which vendors are problematic needs to be a part of the information we share.

I have built many cars and boats over the past 40 years and always check with multiple sources about a vendor I plan to use. No doubt this has saved me much aggravation and expense.

To be fair, I feel George is doing what he feels is the best approach given that he moderates this forum and would have to deal with the legal consequences.

So, I feel the approach suggested by Larry is the way to deal with this important issue.

When I first got into the Pantera scene, I knew nothing about the vendors or much anything else. I read about bad experiences that others had with certain vendors but chose to purchase from them to find out for myself. Sure as others had some bad experiences, so did I. Like good experiences help consumers make intelligent purchasing decisions, so do bad experiences.

I agree with Larry the the tables need to maintain a balance or the appearance of posted vendors may appear to be perfect when they in fact are not.

George brings up a fact of life that is all too realistic...lawsuits! We all have the luxury of not having to think and worry about it, he doesn't. He needs to protect himself and PI, that is first priority.

quote:

Originally posted by LF - TP 2511:
... Therefore, I suggest we all refrain from posting any positive vendor reviews. That will at least keep the tables balanced ...

I don't understand why denying a positive review to a vendor that deserves it is balanced.

And I don't understand the mentality of people who want to cheer-on people who are slinging mud at one another.

You can suggest whatever you want, but you do not speak for the management of these Forums. I believe more people should share their positive experiences with vendors. Positive feedback about vendors is very useful and informative. Its more informative than negative feedback. A vendor with lots of positive feedback is likely somebody you want to do business with.

Negative feedback on the other hand must always be taken with a grain of salt. People are likely to over state the facts when they are angry. And the source of problems between two people (a vendor and his customer) is often mis-communication. It wouldn't be wise to evaluate somebody's business ethics based on mis-communication.

I have worked on other people's cars for money. I can tell you when it comes to working on another person's vehicle, or taking another person's money, there are some people you just can't make happy ... they are going to be pissed off no matter what you do. The unfortunate reality is, if you treat people like that nice, they will take advantage of you endlessly. When you finally draw the line, they get angry.

Negative feedback can be vendetta driven, somebody purposefully trying to make someone else look bad, even if the facts reported are lies. Mud-slinging about vendors may be the result of a friend of one vendor trying to make the competition look bad. I've seen that happen on the Cleveland forum, and have had it verified that it was intentional. One manufacturer would telephone his friends and ask them to log onto the forum and make the other manufacturer look bad. It happens.

Finally, when a person starts slinging mud at another, no matter how "right" he may be, he always gets a little of that mud on himself. A mud slinger will end up looking bad in the eyes of others, except in the eyes of those who want to cheer such behavior on. With concern for my friends here in the DeTomaso Internet Community, my advice to all is slinging mud is not something any of you want to be involved in. And its not something we want on our forums.

-G

quote:

Most forums DO NOT allow grievances to be aired like this. That's a totally erroneous statement.

Sorry George and not to be argumentative, but you are wrong.

I am a member on numerous forums. These are automotive,motorcycle, firearm forums. Vendor stories good and bad ARE allowed.

However,language such as Coz's is not tolerated on most.

In the past I have PMed members who have mentioned a bad vendor experience. This it least gives me the opportunity to weigh their experience for my future purchases.

If these negative experiences can be discussed in a grown up discussion I see no reason they should not be allowed.

I respectfully disagree but do understand and accept the rules of your forum.
Jeff

I have to disagree as well. Of all the forums I regularly visit (cobra,hotrod and motorcycle) this is the only one that does not allow negative vendor feedback. To me, this is the most valuable content. However, this is your show and your rules. Just saying that this site is the exception and not the rule of my decade of experience leveraging forums. Regardles, if i want to post here I must abide by the law.

quote:

Originally posted by Cowboy from Hell:


Finally, when a person starts slinging mud at another, no matter how "right" he may be, he always gets a little of that mud on himself.

-G

I am in George's corner on this one.

I visit a Range Rover and Porsche Boxster forum and neither of them allow posters to flame other posters.

It is just a matter of being courteous and realizing that you will never hear both sides of a dispute in an objective manner.

I'm with George also ... you want to complain and whine ...take it else where. I say do better when your making transactions get the terms in an email.

Ron