Skip to main content

38 replies

Headers, again

Replies sorted oldest to newest

O osofastMember
I like Pats headers, but for the same price you can get a set of stainless headers and mufflers from Wilkinsons, they are louder but they make almost as much power as open headers as per Dan Jones testing.
One note don't put the mufflers on without removing the paint that comes on them. As soon as they get hot the paint falls off and looks like crap.
Jeff
George PGeorge PAdmin.
I agree it would be nice to have a picture of Mr. Mical's headers. They are works of art. My memory is not as good as it used to be, I apologize that I can't be more helpful. The only member I can recall having a set of Pat Mical's headers is Adams Hudson (member name A Hudson). You might send him a private message for his opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by SF:

... Tri y or 4-1 header design what is your opinion ...



Tri-Y headers are a less complicated way of achieving results similar to 180 degree headers, they boost mid-range horsepower. Those types of exhaust systems compliment individual runner OR dual plane induction systems which also boost mid-range horsepower.

Problem is ... nobody makes a "good" off-the-shelf tri-Y header for the Pantera. It might be cool to challenge Mr. Mical to do so.
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by T.Solo:
I have the stainless Wilkinson exhaust. And yes the heat flakes the paint right off. I had them ceramic coated, black mufflers and titanium headers. I'm very happy with them but they are loud.

Steve
TITANIUM HEADERS!!!!...Who made those???!!...I understand the reasoning/rationale behind titanium valves, connecting rods, it's for reducing the weight of reciprocating mass, BUT headers are stationary!!!, Please explain your reasoning for the titanium headers. Did you have to rob Fort Knox??!!!>>>Mark
panterachrispanterachrisMember
Have you considered 180's? Ford incorporated the 180 set up on there GT-40 to achieve better scavenging of the exhaust gases. race engines have long incorporated a flat crank design to enhance the breathing of high performance engines, that's what gives a Ferrari it's incredible high pitched sound, by creating a 90 degree rotating crank the pulse is more efficient than a 180degree pulse ( American V-8's ) i.e. crossing the 2 & 3 to the 5&8 header and likewise the 6 & 7 to the 1 & 4 header pushes the exhaust at consistent and higher volume ( better breathing)The 351-C platform was designed around huge canted vales, 180's take advantage of that. I have 180's created by Dan Lemon of Lemon headers in Atascadero, Ca,the increase over standard headers was dramatic seat of the pants impressive, i love them!!!.
quote:
Originally posted by SF:
Looking for new headers to my 408. I have search to find photos of the Pat Mical´s headers without result. Any one that can share a photo?

Tri y or 4-1 header design what is your opinion?
Anders
sfsfMember
quote:

Originally posted by pantera chris:

Have you considered 180's? Ford incorporated the 180 set up on there GT-40 to achieve better scavenging of the exhaust gases. race engines have long incorporated a flat crank design to enhance the breathing of high performance engines, that's what gives a Ferrari it's incredible high pitched sound, by creating a 90 degree rotating crank the pulse is more efficient than a 180degree pulse ( American V-8's ) i.e. crossing the 2 & 3 to the 5&8 header and likewise the 6 & 7 to the 1 & 4 header pushes the exhaust at consistent and higher volume ( better breathing)The 351-C platform was designed around huge canted vales, 180's take advantage of that. I have 180's created by Dan Lemon of Lemon headers in Atascadero, Ca,the increase over standard headers was dramatic seat of the pants impressive, i love them!!!.



That would be something but I still want to use the luggage trunk and I will not reroute the AC condensor. A nascar style header would be preferable
Last edited by George P
panteradougpanteradougMember
quote:
Originally posted by George P:
I agree it would be nice to have a picture of Mr. Mical's headers. They are works of art. My memory is not as good as it used to be, I apologize that I can't be more helpful. The only member I can recall having a set of Pat Mical's headers is Adams Hudson (member name A Hudson). You might send him a private message for his opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by SF:

... Tri y or 4-1 header design what is your opinion ...



Tri-Y headers are a less complicated way of achieving results similar to 180 degree headers, they boost mid-range horsepower. Those types of exhaust systems compliment individual runner OR dual plane induction systems which also boost mid-range horsepower.

Problem is ... nobody makes a "good" off-the-shelf tri-Y header for the Pantera. It might be cool to challenge Mr. Mical to do so.


Tri-y's are being used in Nascar and Vintage racing now. They are making considerably more that the 180s do. They are not cheap.

These are Cobra Automotives.

http://cobraautomotive.com/catalog/engines.html

They are getting 620hp at 8,500rpm out of "customers engines".

Base price quoted to me was $3500. Don't know what you would do for mufflers with them?

180s run into a wall at a certain rpm. The GT40 180s were tuned originally to make maximum power at about 5,500 rpm.

You could hear these things from a distance on the race track with the Webers.

They have a certain harmonic sound to them like a church organ.

Nothing else sounded like them back then.

Like the Weber carbs, the 180s will feel more powerful than than a "regular" exhaust because they give you around 50 ft-lbs more of torque over normal exhausts.

You can rout the exhaust through the original exit location and the cargo tub can be modified to give you some cargo space with the exhausts.

I have not seen tri-y race headers on a Pantera YET! The space for them is limited and are as problematic as the 180s are in a Pantera.
R 1Rocketship (Guest)
quote:
Originally posted by pantera chris:
luggage? I like mine medium-rare Smiler
quote:
Originally posted by SF:
Looking for new headers to my 408. I have search to find photos of the Pat Mical´s headers without result. Any one that can share a photo?

Tri y or 4-1 header design what is your opinion?
Anders
I have to agree With Pantera Chris & others, I didn't buy my 1972 DeTomaso Pantera for Weekend Bed & Breakfast excursions!...Mark
D davekMember
Stenmark,

You might try experimenting with various engine simulation/modeling programs to see what different header designs do to your predicted power curves. There are also options for others to do the modeling on your behalf. For example Burns Stainless offers a service using their X-design software based on the details of your engine. I believe they charge $75. May be worth the expense if building your own custom exhaust.

Dave
Last edited by davek
B bdudMember
quote:
Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Hello
How much do they cost ? (Pat Mical's headers)
regards
Philippe

It would be best you contact Pat for a price.
http://www.patsauto.com

He sells a 3" and a 2.5" connecting pipe, which is what I have. He also has mufflers but last time I saw Pat, they were a different style to the stock ones. I wanted the stock look from the outside which is why I had my GTS mufflers modified to fit.
B bdudMember
quote:
Originally posted by SF:
Thank's for sharing

The "Pat Mical's" looks like those PIM sell, I'm I wrong?
Is there a cone in the center of the collector and did they fit right in (bolt on...)?
Anders

They don't look the same to me. Tube bends seem different, no O2 bung, shorter collector, collector at the flange seems it tapers down and on one picture the flange at the heads is a different way up i.e. the solid piece joining each port. There could be different revisions or updates on Pat's or PIM..
Pat's headers and extension pipe fit very nice.
Highly recommend.
B bdudMember
quote:
Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Up !
I guess those are GTS headers ?
thanks
Philippe

The headers and mufflers I pictured on page 2 were purchased from Hall Pantera over 30 years ago and I think he said it was a european GTS setup.
The ones you are looking at are different to mine. "Solid" exhaust flange, welding does not look so neat, the collector looks bigger, the flange which connects to the muffler is welded in place. Should work though, just check how they mate up to your mufflers.
sfsfMember
bdud
Yes, they look like European GTS Headers, do not now what the differens is between "stock GTS" and aftermarket GTS headers.
They are Tri-Y style and Pat's are 4-1. I wonder if you are running a windsor because that they are connected in another order than the GTS headers because of the firing order?
Anders
panteradougpanteradougMember
Those are what I have. IF you look at the pictures of the factory Gp4 cars, the exhausts exited where Halls do. That is in the original notch for the street headers.

What I like about them, which is what many do not, is that the left and right side headers are separate and bolt together in the center.

This is a practical solution to serviceability.

If you go to one piece headers, with the left and right side built to each other, consider how you are going to install them onto the heads.

Also consider that once the headers are run and get hot, when they cool down they warp.

The one piece will loosen up the headerbolts constantly, and if you remove them from the engine, they will be very, very difficult to reinstall because they have warped.

Halls solution is much more practical and the exhaust exit into the original location is a better solution. They are also 2" primaries, not 1-3/4". 2" is correct. 1-3/4" is not unless you are running the C302B Motorsport aluminum high port heads with the 1.60 exhaust valves.

2" is correct for a 4v iron head or my A3 heads with 1.71 exhaust valves.

Plus, you can not possibly beat Halls price.
italforditalfordMember
I am also using the Hall 180's with some modifications. W first test fit the headers on the engine when the engine was on the ground. They fit but needed a little tweaking. I decided I didn't like the slip fittings so we welded three bolt flanges to each side. I also cut off the collectors and exited the exhaust straight to the back using 3" collectors. The two main reasons for going to 180's is A the sound. B I'm not really keen on the Panteras exposed mufflers. We closed off the notches in the rear valance where the original mufflers were. Looks much better IMO.

Attachments

Hide
Images (1)
  • photo_3
panterachrispanterachrisMember
To get the most out of 180's they should exit straight out of the car as close together as possible for that F-1 sound ( V-8 chain saw ), I know theirs a thread for a forum member who was making them about 2 or 3 months ago and his were right on. Another concern is, can you get at the plugs and removing the valve covers. The quality
function of the primary's to the collectors, size,length and the rotation of the exhaust pulse are critical. See mine on page #2

Add Reply

Views: 839
Post

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×