Headers, again

I like Pats headers, but for the same price you can get a set of stainless headers and mufflers from Wilkinsons, they are louder but they make almost as much power as open headers as per Dan Jones testing.
One note don't put the mufflers on without removing the paint that comes on them. As soon as they get hot the paint falls off and looks like crap.
Jeff

I have the stainless Wilkinson exhaust. And yes the heat flakes the paint right off. I had them ceramic coated, black mufflers and titanium headers. I'm very happy with them but they are loud.

Steve

I agree it would be nice to have a picture of Mr. Mical's headers. They are works of art. My memory is not as good as it used to be, I apologize that I can't be more helpful. The only member I can recall having a set of Pat Mical's headers is Adams Hudson (member name A Hudson). You might send him a private message for his opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by SF:

... Tri y or 4-1 header design what is your opinion ...

Tri-Y headers are a less complicated way of achieving results similar to 180 degree headers, they boost mid-range horsepower. Those types of exhaust systems compliment individual runner OR dual plane induction systems which also boost mid-range horsepower.

Problem is ... nobody makes a "good" off-the-shelf tri-Y header for the Pantera. It might be cool to challenge Mr. Mical to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by T.Solo:
I have the stainless Wilkinson exhaust. And yes the heat flakes the paint right off. I had them ceramic coated, black mufflers and titanium headers. I'm very happy with them but they are loud.

Steve

TITANIUM HEADERS!!!!...Who made those???!!...I understand the reasoning/rationale behind titanium valves, connecting rods, it's for reducing the weight of reciprocating mass, BUT headers are stationary!!!, Please explain your reasoning for the titanium headers. Did you have to rob Fort Knox??!!!>>>Mark

quote:

TITANIUM HEADERS!!!!

Try "ceramic coated..."

John

quote:

Originally posted by jb1490:

quote:

TITANIUM HEADERS!!!!

Try "ceramic coated..."

John

OHHHHH!!!..the "Titanium" referred to the COLOR that the headers were "Ceramic Coated"...Thanks!!! for the clarification...Mark

Right. Someone had a set of real sheet-metal titanium headers made up for a twin turbo Pantera and as I understand it, the cost was over $5000 a decade ago. Should be more today.

Have you considered 180's? Ford incorporated the 180 set up on there GT-40 to achieve better scavenging of the exhaust gases. race engines have long incorporated a flat crank design to enhance the breathing of high performance engines, that's what gives a Ferrari it's incredible high pitched sound, by creating a 90 degree rotating crank the pulse is more efficient than a 180degree pulse ( American V-8's ) i.e. crossing the 2 & 3 to the 5&8 header and likewise the 6 & 7 to the 1 & 4 header pushes the exhaust at consistent and higher volume ( better breathing)The 351-C platform was designed around huge canted vales, 180's take advantage of that. I have 180's created by Dan Lemon of Lemon headers in Atascadero, Ca,the increase over standard headers was dramatic seat of the pants impressive, i love them!!!.

quote:

Originally posted by SF:
Looking for new headers to my 408. I have search to find photos of the Pat Mical´s headers without result. Any one that can share a photo?

Tri y or 4-1 header design what is your opinion?
Anders

quote:

Originally posted by pantera chris:

Have you considered 180's? Ford incorporated the 180 set up on there GT-40 to achieve better scavenging of the exhaust gases. race engines have long incorporated a flat crank design to enhance the breathing of high performance engines, that's what gives a Ferrari it's incredible high pitched sound, by creating a 90 degree rotating crank the pulse is more efficient than a 180degree pulse ( American V-8's ) i.e. crossing the 2 & 3 to the 5&8 header and likewise the 6 & 7 to the 1 & 4 header pushes the exhaust at consistent and higher volume ( better breathing)The 351-C platform was designed around huge canted vales, 180's take advantage of that. I have 180's created by Dan Lemon of Lemon headers in Atascadero, Ca,the increase over standard headers was dramatic seat of the pants impressive, i love them!!!.

That would be something but I still want to use the luggage trunk and I will not reroute the AC condensor. A nascar style header would be preferable

quote:

Originally posted by George P:
I agree it would be nice to have a picture of Mr. Mical's headers. They are works of art. My memory is not as good as it used to be, I apologize that I can't be more helpful. The only member I can recall having a set of Pat Mical's headers is Adams Hudson (member name A Hudson). You might send him a private message for his opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by SF:

... Tri y or 4-1 header design what is your opinion ...

Tri-Y headers are a less complicated way of achieving results similar to 180 degree headers, they boost mid-range horsepower. Those types of exhaust systems compliment individual runner OR dual plane induction systems which also boost mid-range horsepower.

Problem is ... nobody makes a "good" off-the-shelf tri-Y header for the Pantera. It might be cool to challenge Mr. Mical to do so.

Tri-y's are being used in Nascar and Vintage racing now. They are making considerably more that the 180s do. They are not cheap.

These are Cobra Automotives.

http://cobraautomotive.com/catalog/engines.html

They are getting 620hp at 8,500rpm out of "customers engines".

Base price quoted to me was $3500. Don't know what you would do for mufflers with them?

180s run into a wall at a certain rpm. The GT40 180s were tuned originally to make maximum power at about 5,500 rpm.

You could hear these things from a distance on the race track with the Webers.

They have a certain harmonic sound to them like a church organ.

Nothing else sounded like them back then.

Like the Weber carbs, the 180s will feel more powerful than than a "regular" exhaust because they give you around 50 ft-lbs more of torque over normal exhausts.

You can rout the exhaust through the original exit location and the cargo tub can be modified to give you some cargo space with the exhausts.

I have not seen tri-y race headers on a Pantera YET! The space for them is limited and are as problematic as the 180s are in a Pantera.

Hi! If one was to build a pair of tri-y on a pantera, witch length and dia would be ok??
(Running a agressive cam and a hi-rise intake)

Br/ Henrik of Sweden

luggage? I like mine medium-rare

quote:

Originally posted by SF:
Looking for new headers to my 408. I have search to find photos of the Pat Mical´s headers without result. Any one that can share a photo?

Tri y or 4-1 header design what is your opinion?
Anders

quote:

Originally posted by pantera chris:
luggage? I like mine medium-rare

quote:

Originally posted by SF:
Looking for new headers to my 408. I have search to find photos of the Pat Mical´s headers without result. Any one that can share a photo?

Tri y or 4-1 header design what is your opinion?
Anders

I have to agree With Pantera Chris & others, I didn't buy my 1972 DeTomaso Pantera for Weekend Bed & Breakfast excursions!...Mark

Stenmark,

You might try experimenting with various engine simulation/modeling programs to see what different header designs do to your predicted power curves. There are also options for others to do the modeling on your behalf. For example Burns Stainless offers a service using their X-design software based on the details of your engine. I believe they charge $75. May be worth the expense if building your own custom exhaust.

Dave

For anyone considering building their own headers, I recommend 'Pipemax', a downloadable software program written by ex-racer Larry Meaux. It's commonly used by many pro race teams in the U.S. It's only $75USD and runs on any PC. By the time you gather the data the program needs to calculate sizes, lengths and other stuff, you'll be far more familiar with your engine! WWW.maxracesoftware.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by George P:
I agree it would be nice to have a picture of Mr. Mical's headers. They are works of art.
[QUOTE]
I have a set of Pat's headers with 2.5" connecting pipe going to a pair of modified Hall Pantera GTS mufflers.

Disregard the terrible stainless mufflers pictured. They are not Pat's. Straight through, very noisy, threw out the fiberglass material constantly and were too large so stuck out from the rear of the car. In the exhaust sticky was how Pat modified my GTS mufflers for me.

The headers have O2 bungs and everything fits very well. The finish is still great, the coating seems to cool down quicker than the stock GTS headers. Very nicely made.

Hello
How much do they cost ? (Pat Mical's headers)
regards
Philippe

quote:

Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Hello
How much do they cost ? (Pat Mical's headers)
regards
Philippe

It would be best you contact Pat for a price.
http://www.patsauto.com

He sells a 3" and a 2.5" connecting pipe, which is what I have. He also has mufflers but last time I saw Pat, they were a different style to the stock ones. I wanted the stock look from the outside which is why I had my GTS mufflers modified to fit.

When Pat made mine each side was made up of a header and a connecting pipe. You chose the muffler and method of attachment.

Hello guys

I have those headers not far from home ... what do you think ?,


Still gathering some informations for my gr4 replica project
(Pat Mical's headers are on the list ...)
kind regards

Thank's for sharing

The "Pat Mical's" looks like those PIM sell, I'm I wrong?
Is there a cone in the center of the collector and did they fit right in (bolt on...)?
Anders

Up !
I guess those are GTS headers ?
thanks
Philippe

quote:

Originally posted by SF:
Thank's for sharing

The "Pat Mical's" looks like those PIM sell, I'm I wrong?
Is there a cone in the center of the collector and did they fit right in (bolt on...)?
Anders

They don't look the same to me. Tube bends seem different, no O2 bung, shorter collector, collector at the flange seems it tapers down and on one picture the flange at the heads is a different way up i.e. the solid piece joining each port. There could be different revisions or updates on Pat's or PIM..
Pat's headers and extension pipe fit very nice.
Highly recommend.

quote:

Originally posted by "72 GTS:
Up !
I guess those are GTS headers ?
thanks
Philippe

The headers and mufflers I pictured on page 2 were purchased from Hall Pantera over 30 years ago and I think he said it was a european GTS setup.
The ones you are looking at are different to mine. "Solid" exhaust flange, welding does not look so neat, the collector looks bigger, the flange which connects to the muffler is welded in place. Should work though, just check how they mate up to your mufflers.

bdud
Yes, they look like European GTS Headers, do not now what the differens is between "stock GTS" and aftermarket GTS headers.
They are Tri-Y style and Pat's are 4-1. I wonder if you are running a windsor because that they are connected in another order than the GTS headers because of the firing order?
Anders

My engine is a Cleveland.

I must correct myself!
The header that is in the picture together with Pat's is not a "GTS" header. It is Hall Big Bore header. The headers above on this side is "GTS" headers.
Still wondering why Pat's headers are routed in that order to the collector?

Hello
I'm finaly considering to use 180 deg headers for my gr4 race car project.
What about hall headers priced at $899 ?
I've noticed that they "go" left and right ( I mean not straight to the back or the car...)
Kind regards
Philippe

Those are what I have. IF you look at the pictures of the factory Gp4 cars, the exhausts exited where Halls do. That is in the original notch for the street headers.

What I like about them, which is what many do not, is that the left and right side headers are separate and bolt together in the center.

This is a practical solution to serviceability.

If you go to one piece headers, with the left and right side built to each other, consider how you are going to install them onto the heads.

Also consider that once the headers are run and get hot, when they cool down they warp.

The one piece will loosen up the headerbolts constantly, and if you remove them from the engine, they will be very, very difficult to reinstall because they have warped.

Halls solution is much more practical and the exhaust exit into the original location is a better solution. They are also 2" primaries, not 1-3/4". 2" is correct. 1-3/4" is not unless you are running the C302B Motorsport aluminum high port heads with the 1.60 exhaust valves.

2" is correct for a 4v iron head or my A3 heads with 1.71 exhaust valves.

Plus, you can not possibly beat Halls price.

Doug
Thank you, may you post a picture of your setup please ? From head to mufflers
Philippe

I'd like to see it also!

I am also using the Hall 180's with some modifications. W first test fit the headers on the engine when the engine was on the ground. They fit but needed a little tweaking. I decided I didn't like the slip fittings so we welded three bolt flanges to each side. I also cut off the collectors and exited the exhaust straight to the back using 3" collectors. The two main reasons for going to 180's is A the sound. B I'm not really keen on the Panteras exposed mufflers. We closed off the notches in the rear valance where the original mufflers were. Looks much better IMO.

Overall view

Much to my surprise I have not found any burned paint yet.

To get the most out of 180's they should exit straight out of the car as close together as possible for that F-1 sound ( V-8 chain saw ), I know theirs a thread for a forum member who was making them about 2 or 3 months ago and his were right on. Another concern is, can you get at the plugs and removing the valve covers. The quality
function of the primary's to the collectors, size,length and the rotation of the exhaust pulse are critical. See mine on page #2

I can get the plugs out and the valve covers off without removing any of the exhaust.