Mind Train Headers

I do NOT have the MindTrain headers, I used Thunderbird headers (long ago out of business, but the design is well done). I DID install the P.I. Stainless Mufflers. They are a thing of Art and Beauty. Since the intake side was 2 1/4" I had a very good muffler shop do the headpipes in the same diameter, in stainless tubing. I had thought of 2 1/2" but you must think of the clearence to the driveshafts. They do "kiss" ever so slightly, only on the hardest of bumps. I was sort of dissapointed at first as they were Brand-New and solidly packed!(knock on them, all you hear is a thud). So at first they were pretty quiet. But today, after some 3000 miles, they are burning out (normally) and have elevated in Decebels somewhat. Now They sound great!! You can't go wrong with the mirror finish! My only advice IS: There is a welded seam running down ONE side, be sure to tell the welder to face it inside so it will be unseen. I also had the shop grind the spot welds off the original chrome tips (still in exellent shape) and they slide right on the new mufflers. You get what you pay for!! total cost for ALL parts and labor, $200. The man did the job PERFECT. And always Remember what George Peppard said on the "A" Team! "When you pay peanuts... You end up hireing a bunch of monkies!!". Regards, Marlin.

[This message has been edited by MARLIN JACK (edited 10-25-2003).]

[This message has been edited by MARLIN JACK (edited 10-25-2003).]

MJ, I've been thinking of buying the mufflers. I can't see anyway of supporting them using the stock mounts. Are they just not visible in the pictures? I know they look great in the pictures!

Marlin, Thanks so much for responding. I happen to have a set of the mufflers. After I read your message, I measured the inlet and outlet pipes. The inlet on my set is 2 1/2" o.d. The outlet pipes are 2 1/4" o.d. (2.100" i.d.)Is this different from the dimensions on yours? Also, I purchased the chrome tips sold by PI. The outside diameter on the tip where it would connect to the muffler is 2.200". Not sure how to reconcile this. A .100 press fit is not possible. Did you have this issue? The stainless tubing sounds like the way to go. Do you think I will have problems if I try to match the diameter of the intake pipe (in my case 2 1/2"). Or, should I just go with 2 1/4" stainless tubing? Joel

I have the PI muffs and tips. I like the way they sound. It was money well spent. Just be very specific how you want you muff shop to configure them. You might even hang around the shop to observe. They will screw it up if you leave it up to them. They will need to cut off some of the muffler exit segment somewhat shorter to mount the tips and make it look right. Most guys have never seen a Pantera and wont know what the "look" should be like. Take the picture from PI website with you to show them. Take my word for it, you dont want to do it over again.

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The truth is, I was not physically there when the work was done. I had left the car with the crew and boss that had once owned a pantera. So we know that helped. Any shop "worth their salt", can make you up, and weld-on, a mounting strap, out of thick steel. They will have the old muffler as a guide. I can say this, they took the greatest care when they designed the actual bends in the headpipes. One mistake I mentioned above is, the pipe IS NOT kissed by the driveshaft on HARD bumps; It IS kissed by the anti-sway bar ENDS (from below), and very rarely. As far as the diameters being off slightly, the shop has the hydraulic machine that can EXPAND the tubing very slightly, with-out ruining it, for a perfect fit. Your 2 1/2 inch tubing? May fit OVER the INTAKE of the muffler, where MY 2 1/4 slipped INTO the INTAKE. I say Go for it!! The pro's had told me since the headpipe was so short (bearly 3 feet) that the need for 2 1/2" was not absolutely neccessary. It's YOUR call!, your only dealing with 1/8" per side, clearence! It seemed to me that on the mufflers I had, that the 2 1/4" fit perfect and the 2 1/2" would have required modification. YOUR case may be different. If you wish to see ONE picture, that gives just a hint of how they look; go to eBay and search out ITEM # 2438946288 , My best to all, and good-Luck with it, Marlin.

Yes! To Pant4714, your inlets are 2 1/2" O.D.!! Remember when dealing with tubing and pipe, we ALWAYS (most of the time) work with the I.nside D.iameter. so your intake I.D. would be darn near the 2 1/4" of the tubing! Then a pro would just expand the tubing for such a perfect fit, it would "Scare You"! One more thing! They did NOT weld-on a cone onto the end of the tubing, at the header flange; they expanded the end of the tubing into a cone (near the diameter of the collector), and welded the tubing onto a flange!! Making for a very clean looking and unristrictive connection! If you want this, you must speak up and ask for it, but these guys did this on their own. See what I mean about paying a little extra to have a Professional do your work. These guys were true artists and proud of their work; and they knew a lot of people were going to ask, constantly, who did the job. And we all know these cars turn all the heads, and the rear end is all most of them are ever going to see. Regards, Marlin.

[This message has been edited by MARLIN JACK (edited 10-26-2003).]

[This message has been edited by MARLIN JACK (edited 10-26-2003).]

Marlin, The muffler shop you mention isn't by chance in California is it??? Just wishful thinking on my part. I'm in the San Francisco Bay area.

Joel

Joel, your wish is my command! If you want to use the same shop I did, and don't mind driving 60 miles east (to the central valley) on Highway 580, to 205, to 120 Interchange, get off at the Main St. Exit and head North 4 or 5 blocks. The shop is in the town I live in, Manteca. The place is called "Mufflers and More", (they sell a lot of chrome tips, accessories, as well as truck parts). But, ofcourse, their main business is Muffler Installation. The address is 740 Main Street. Phone, (209) 825-0966. Always glad to be of help, Marlin. P.S. expect to leave the car aprox. 3 Hours as precision can not be rushed! Sorry for all the corrections!

[This message has been edited by MARLIN JACK (edited 10-26-2003).]

[This message has been edited by MARLIN JACK (edited 10-26-2003).]

[This message has been edited by MARLIN JACK (edited 10-26-2003).]

Also, Joel! Your original chrome tips will slide right OVER the EXIT tubes! Marlin.

Marlin, Thanks so much for the information. Since I travel throughout CA, I think I will stop in and make arrangements to have them do the job. I'm a couple of weeks away from getting my headers but hopefully before winter sets in I can get this done. Part of my problem will be getting the car there. I'll have the new headers on, but I do not believe my stock mufflers and head pipes will bolt up. Maybe rig up a temporary fix that will last just long enough to get there? Any suggestions??

Joel

Well, you could drive with FULL OPEN HEADERS and if the police pull you over, and you tell them your heading STRAIGHT to the muffler shop!! You would NOT be lieing! OR if it were me, I would hook-up the OLD exhaust any way I could, to muffle the sound; 1 bolt, 2bolts in the flange just to get some sound deadening. You'll get through it! We always do!

Joel,
Are you getting the Mind Train Headers? If so, let me know how you like them, and if you get some pix of the job, I'd sure like to see them!

That is a upgrade I am looking at soon as well.

Thanks,

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Cheers,
Rich
guitars@theguitarweb.com
coilsplitter@earthlink.net

[This message has been edited by RD (edited 11-02-2003).]