motor build advice - windsor, webers and 180's combo

Cullen,

If you're dead set on a downdraft IR intake, you can make things much easier by selecting your components in reverse order. What I mean is, find the intake manifold you want to use then select your cylinder heads accordingly. I wonder how many people have a plan similar to yours, buy the heads they like then find out the manifold they want doesn't exist. I know of one person that happened to for sure; me!

that's a good point David, and duly noted.

I really like the AFR heads for the Windsor. I don't know which model number is best for the webers however.

If you select a 351W intake manifold I would select Kaase's P-38 heads. All the guys I know avoid the World Products block and prefer either Dart or Ford. You'll find off the shelf headers for Cleveland heads and 9.2 blocks or SBF/Windsor heads and 9.5 blocks. I'm not sure if 180 headers for the Windsor are custom manufactured or available off-the-shelf, if custom they can obviously be made for either deck height.

Thanks George on the advice. I will add the Kasse heads to the list of considerations. I have indeed heard good things about them.

I already have the block. I hadn't heard any grumbling about staying away from the world products block, but I appreciate the note. I checked with my engine guys here in okc who are pretty accomplished and they didn't have any bad things to say before I bought it, and it won the engine masters challenge. I'm pretty sure it will be ok. I also already have the headers from Byars. I did select a head when I ordered the headers, like an edelbrock performer. pretty economical and easy to get 550 horse out of them with the right build, But at the time I hadn't found the alloy block, which was a big opportunity.

so I need to select a seat of compatible heads and a bump stick, and maker of the induction and engine management. more research to follow. thank you!!!

http://www.mustangandfords.com...-427-windsor-engine/ I like the 427 set up, 4" stroke x 4.125 bore.

Hi Cullen,

Don't know if any of this is useful to you but I thought I would share. I am building an aluminum block Clevor. We are about 3/4 of the way through the build. The block I chose is Ford's Z351-9.2 aluminum Windsor. The main reason I chose an aluminum block is the light weight. Having experience with mid-engine street and race cars, I want to shift the weight distribution forward as much as I can afford to. The lighter the car the better, but my car being strictly a street car I am more focused on overall balance. I chose the 9.2" deck height version. The 9.2 deck was chosen because it is lighter than Ford's 9.5 deck block and to match the Cleveland's DH. The assembly will be more dimensionally similar to stock. The Ford aluminum blocks are designed to have a finished bore of 4.125". With a stock stroke the displacement is about 374CI. I was OK with that but the engine builder talked me into a 3.75" stroke. The displacement will be about 400CI. Probably more than needed but the engine builder said I will like the low end torque for street use.

The crank is a 3.75" stroke SCAT forged unit that has gun drilled mains and lightened rod journals. The rods are 6" H-beam units.

Pistons are Diamond forged units with coated skirts. They are dished for proper compression ratio.

We are using Edelbrock Performer RPM heads. My engine builder suggested these heads because he feels the Edelbrock castings are very good quality. We both acknowledge that they may not be the last word in performance but my goal is to end up with a mild, very street-able engine. He did a complete port job and chamber contour. His goal is to have good flow numbers even at low valve lift. I don't have the final flow number now but with some old non-profiled valves he used just to get an idea we are at 317 intake and 208 exhaust. He said with the good valves the number will likely be a little better. I am most curious to see the low-mid lift numbers. The cambers are 58cc.

After the heads are done and CR is set he will order a custom grind for the cam. We are using roller hydraulic lifters.

The engine will be topped off with EFI and coil near plug, all controlled by the Holley Dominator ECU.

The intake is a Trick Flow unit.

The main issue with this build is the intake manifold. Because this engine is a short deck Clevor there are VERY few choices for intakes. Fortunately the TFS 9.5 deck Clevor EFI manifold has thick enough flanges that we could machine it to fit. We did a trial assembly and so far so good. TFS couldn't tell this. I gambled that they only make one casting for all the Ford configurations. Fortunately I was correct. I really didn't want to build a custom manifold.

I have no idea how accurate the machinist's HP program is but with limited info about certain things and speculation about others the program is predicting about 517hp and about 540tq. More than I need but should be just enough. Mike

sexy electronic dependability

http://www.alkydigger.net/products.php?cat=84

quote:

Originally posted by Racecar Mike:

...Don't know if any of this is useful to you but I thought I would share....

Mike, this post is FULL of helpful and thought provoking info. thank you so much! I'm particularly interested in the strategy for stroke and cubes as it relates to low end torque, or high end power at the sacrifice of displacement. 3.75" stroke and H Beams is good intel.

Ironically my engine guy, (Mike Henson of Street Outlaw and engine building fame) also suggested the Edelbrock performer RPM heads for the same reason. They are more than capable of meeting the performance goals, and they don't cost an arm and leg. Affordable, but good material quality and also potential for a 500-600 hp street goal. That helps confirmation of that idea.

I like the hydraulic lifters on street car. When I was younger I messed with a late model mustangs a lot and became a huge fan of hydraulic roller lifters. They make good power and you don't have to adjust them all the time, but on the other hand, if I went with that weber style downdraft EFI, or the very sexy Hilborn style EFI 4V & Pround sent, my understanding is they tend to perform best at higher rpm and REDUCE low end torque due to lack of runner volume... so that really lends itself to a solid roller. (UGH) so many things to consider.

is your TrickFlow intake a square bore carb-based intake? single plane or duel plane? Trickflow makes nice stuff. Ive had several sets of their heads and EFI "plenum" style intakes on my mustangs and they always worked well, again, for the cost especially. Thank you so much for the thoughts on this.

Here's another good 351W intake/head combo:

http://mooregoodink.com/kaase-...oss-ram-for-windsor/

Also, the hydraulic vs. solid lifter question is further complicated by the fact you're using an aluminum block.

The Kaase manifold is very similar to this Morrison intake.

When Dan Jones was still posting here he mentioned that he ran the numbers of the flow characteristics of it through his program and that the results that he saw indicated that it "tended to be restrictive" (in Jones "speak"). The down drafts showing much less restriction.

The length of the runner from the intake valve to the bottom of the throttle plate was thought to be around 4.5" to give the best balance of HP vs. TQ.

IF that is factual, these cross rams neck down and are too long.

I am pretty sure that he hadn't at the time dynoed them. I would be very interesting in seeing those results if he has since?

The 48ida Webers show restriction on 289's somewhere in the 6 to 7,000rpm range with 42mm chokes. Dan's computer model suggests that 54-55mm throttle bore on a 4v Cleveland 351 is about right. Problem is, that doesn't exist and there is no cast intake exists that has runners cast thick enough to allow that kind of a bore inlargement.

The Hall Weber manifold that I have measures about a 51mm bore.

The only reason I mention that here is Kaase's description of operation tends to be contradictory to the Jone's data. Personally I couldn't confirm any of that but it is worth mentioning in my mind?

Doug wrote:

quote:

The Kaase manifold is very similar to this Morrison intake.

...but they are, in fact, different manifolds! Comparisons are meaningless.

Also, you can actually pick up the phone and buy a Kaase/Borla manifold. The last person I heard that sent a deposit to Morrison for a manifold, waited for two years, then asked for their deposit back. They're still waiting.

If I'm not mistaken, the IR manifolds Kelly Coffield cast a few years ago, have thick enough runners to enlarge to 55mm. I have one and so does Dan Jones. Both of us are using 55mm TB's, which the manifold was designed for.

I agree the ITB's are max 48mm or so. I have heard they would theoretically flow better than a weber since the weber has the jets and venturies taking up area inside that the throttle bodies don't have. Just a blade.

Then I spoke to Kinsler on the phone earlier, and their intake is a Hilborn style, similar to the alkydigger (looks identical, even the same stock photos, but the prices wasn't the same at all!)

they acted like 600 horse was easy. There was no restriction concerns at all. no technical data, but just by description of my goals.

now... if I could cough up the TEN GRAND to buy the kinsler, we'd be set.

quote:

Originally posted by David_Nunn:
Doug wrote:

quote:

The Kaase manifold is very similar to this Morrison intake.

...but they are, in fact, different manifolds! Comparisons are meaningless.

Also, you can actually pick up the phone and buy a Kaase/Borla manifold. The last person I heard that sent a deposit to Morrison for a manifold, waited for two years, then asked for their deposit back. They're still waiting.

If I'm not mistaken, the IR manifolds Kelly Coffield cast a few years ago, have thick enough runners to enlarge to 55mm. I have one and so does Dan Jones. Both of us are using 55mm TB's, which the manifold was designed for.

Nah! No similarities at all David. None. VERY observant.

quote:

Originally posted by TomCat72:
Then I spoke to Kinsler on the phone earlier, and their intake is a Hilborn style, similar to the alkydigger (looks identical, even the same stock photos, but the prices wasn't the same at all!)

now... if I could cough up the TEN GRAND to buy the kinsler, we'd be set.

So what is wrong with the Alkydigger one?

If you keep an eye on eBay you can pick up a mechanical system and convert it to EFI, although Ford units are far les common than Chebbie. I have a 3 piece 2 7/16 (62mm) Ford unit on the shelf that will get converted one day......

Kinda like this....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kinsle...AOSwA3dYi-9I&vxp=mtr

Cullen, I wrote a long winded post about Edelbrock heads, roller lifters and a few other thing. I thought I hit the "Post Now" button. I guess something went wrong, you've been spared.

The main point was about Edelbrock heads. We installed 2.150 intake valves and 1.60 exhaust valves to help with low lift flow numbers. The other interesting thing is that many aftermarket cylinder head manufacturers don't have Ford blueprints to work off of. Apparently Edelbrock does. That was another reason we chose them.

The other point was about IR carb induction systems. I used them (Weber carbs) for many years on my race engines and a few street engines. They always worked great, always took a lot of effort to sort them out and needed maintenance. Weber carbs are VERY tunable. Without some experience and specific engine performance goals it's easy to put together a combo that doesn't work well. It's easy to get them to work but not so easy to optimize the performance. If you know someone with a similar engine in the same car, try their tune as a starting point. Obviously the runner size and carb size matter. Don't forget the venture size and ratio, runner length and the very important stack shape and length. Another thing to be careful about is the air cleaners. I have seen a good manifold/carb setup screwed up by a poorly designed air cleaner. There are several Weber books worth reading cover to cover. Understanding how to tune them is crucial for a satisfying experience.

IR (EFI or carb) systems are super cool. If I was building my engine/car 20 years ago IR induction would be my choice. At this point a mild engine is the goal. A plenum EFI manifold makes more sense for my build.

I would like to share a few photos. A little help with that please. Mike