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Okay guys well I have a 351C in an old Ford Truck I have. I got the truck from a guy that had the motor fully rebuilt and then it sat for a while and only had about 200 miles on the motor since rebuilt supposedly (looked that way to me so I believe him). Had some issues with it popping out the carb and not running well and found out the cam had wiped a lobe. Figured he didn't break it in right or let it sit for a long time and then fired it up without priming the oil system or something along those lines. Found a rocker that had a spot worn into it from a valve and decided to replace them too (looks like they reused the original rockers). Put a new Comp cams cam, lifter, and rockers on, new intake seals, new MSD full ignition system (6A box, distributor, and Blaster coil). Comp Cams break in oil, put 10 gallons of fresh 93 gas in the tank and a little seafoam, new fuel filter, replaced the metal hard line from the fuel pump with a brake line from the local auto parts store as the original one was kinked. Filled the carb with fuel through the vents in the top. Distributor dropped in at 10*.



Tried to fire it up and it would start up for a few seconds and run but it sounded weak and like it wasn't really firing up completely and wouldn't go above 1000 rpm and there was one pop out the exhaust. Killed it and tried changing the timing some and still wouldn't fire up right. Pulled the valve covers and turned it over and all the rockers looked to be moving well. We hooked the timing light up to each wire and all were getting spark. Pulled the fuel line off the connector before the carb (Holley) and there was no fuel. There was fuel in the bowl but was about dry when we were digging in to what could be the problem. So I know I have a fuel issue, although I feel like there might be more than just that because it didn't fire up and roar even when we first started it (and fuel had been poured into the carb).



For the fuel issue, my fuel pump was off the side of the motor for a good 5 weeks. Is that long enough to dry out the diaphragm and warrant it being replaced. I am in Mississippi so it's been super hot but it's always pretty humid out. I'm going to try and put some vaccuum on the line and see if I can pull fuel through it. If the fuel pump was pulled and the line between it and the carb replaced and a new filter installed. How long does it take to prime it? Any way to prime it without just sitting there cranking the motor, with a brand new cam I don't want to just sit there and turn the motor over for a long period of time to prime the system? The fuel system was working just fine before everything was pulled 5 weeks ago for the cam swap. Is it possible to install the fuel pump wrong? I felt tension on it when installing it and tightening it down like it was against the fuel cam.



Now on to it not firing up and roaring like it should even when I had poured fuel in the bowl. Any ideas where to start on this? I plan on pulling all the plugs and checking them to see what they look like, I guess I should probably check compression on all the cylinders as well while I am at it. The plugs were installed when I was diagnosing what my problem was before I found out the cam had wiped a lobe. The truck would fire up and run pretty strong before cam swap, it would just pop like a fool when you gassed it and would bog. Could there be some problem with my MSD ignition? It's all brand new. I know it's at least getting spark to all cylinders since checked with the timing light and the fact that it did run weakly for a few seconds. Could the coil not be making enough power? I know it's unlikely but I'm just kinda stumped here. What about timing or the distributor not being right? When installing the timing chain set the metal woodruff keys on each gear were directly facing each other when it was put on so should have been at TDC right? Nothing was touched on the crank during installation of the balancer and all so it still should have been right. Then we dropped the distributor in with the rotor pointing at Number one on the Cap and adjusted it to 10*. Tried it with the timing at like 12 and 16 or so as well and still nothing. We checked firing order several times. Did not see any mention of the new Comp cam having a different firing order anywhere.



Also, the intake seals I used and the manifold I have definitely didn't match. I have the small ports on my heads, and thus used the small\ Felpro intake seals (have both actually). They fit nicely around the ports on the head. The ports on the manifold are much bigger. I have no clue what it is off of but was on the truck when I got it. Looks like it was a factory 4V intake manifold. It has the funky little line/ridge in the top around the holes where the carb sits (saw it might be some strange variant from 73). It had a metal valley pan gasket on it when I got it and was RTV'd around the edges. There are two holes in the heads not covered up by the intake manifold. When I got the truck these were covered in RTV. I stuck a probe down there and they don't appear to go anywhere. I left them open for now but was going to silicon them just to keep crud from building up in there. The thought has crossed my mind that maybe there is some kind of leak going on here which might be keeping my motor from firing up strong/right combined with the lack of fuel making it to the carb.



I am by NO MEANS a mechanic or mechanical expert, I'm a very mechanically inclined motorcycle builder who is very competent in auto stuff like wiring, suspension, brakes, customization, etc. However old engines/timing/auto carbs are by far my weak point.. I know a fair amount but My buddy who is a mechanic and has his own shop was helping me through all this and did the timing setting, timing chain installation, and distributor install but I am one who never trusts anyone, ever. So if something I described doesn't sound right please let me know.

Here's a few pics even though they might not help. Notes for the pics: Gaskets are the large ones I did not use, the ones I used look identical but with smaller ports. I also noticed a little silver spot on top of one of the pushrods, although it could have been from when there was a stuck lifter from the wiped cam lobe. They all looked clean and straight and had very low miles on them so were reused:



Any helps would be greatly appreciated. I've hit every minor bump in the road possible with getting this truck to run right and after getting it all finally together again and running into all this I'm about to the point where I just want to pour gas all over the entire truck and watch her burn lol.



















Thanks,

Spencer
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...Priming the Fuel Bowls, That's why I run Electric fuel Pumps!

Here's what comes to mind.
Check for:
1. Distributor Installed 360 Degrees Off, in Reference to the Crank!
Stick finger in #1 Cylinder Spark Plug Hole and VERIFY You are on the Compression Stroke.
2. Blown Power Valve in carb caused from backfire.
3. Did You align the timing marks to crank gear properly when you installed the Cam, timing SET?
4. Carefully recheck the Firing Order of the Spark Plug wires. The Cleveland is: 13726548 2 Wires can be switched and the Engine will still start and run, only Crappy as you described.
5. Check the Float Levels.
6. Is the Engine GROUND WIRE Properly Hooked Up?
7. Is the Ignition, Itself, Grounded Properly? And the Coil? Check for Continuity with a Multimeter.

...This will keep you busy!
Last edited by marlinjack
Thanks a ton for the quick reply Marlin Jack!

1.) I am confused about the distributor being installed 360 degrees off, in reference to the crank? As in it was at TDC but not on the compression stroke? So verify compression stroke and then make sure the rotor is aiming at the number 1 mark on the distributor?

2.) Would a blown power valve cause it to not run very well? I figured it would just cause it to be a little erratic not run very weak. I did put a new power valve in right before I started the tear down to replace the cam. The carb backfired once or twice with the new power valve on.

3.) The two metal keys that stuck out from the cam and crank gears were facing straight at each other when installed. The cam key was facing straight down and the crank key was facing straight up. I believe that is the proper way to align them, if not please let me know.

4.) I checked the firing order several times as I initially thought that might be the problem but it is indeed correct/

5.) For someone who knows virtually nothing about auto carbs, whats the easiest way to check the float level? I've done it on many motorcycle carbs but they are a whole different beast.

6.) By engine ground wire do you mean the negative battery cable that runs to the motor/starter?

7.) The ignition is a full new MSD system, the ground for the coil goes into the wiring harness and the harness is attached to the positive and negative terminals of the battery. I am dumb when it comes to some electrical terms, I'll have to google continuity and figure out what to look for.


Thanks again!

Spencer
Crank the engine over a few times. Enough for the fuel pump to prime the carb.

Push the bottom of the accelerator lever under the accelerator pump until fuel squirts out of the pump jets in the primary venturis. Then you know there is fuel in the bowls without opening the sight ports.

Open the sight plugs on the carb. Fuel should run out or at least be at the edge of the sight plug hole.

Theoretically it should "trickle" out.


By far the best way to set the fuel level is to take the fuel bowls off and set the clearances between the top of the floats and the bowls with drill bits.

I would have to check but I think it is 7/32" primary and 5/16" secondary.

That IS the way the Holley factory does it and is THE most accurate.

I can tell you that with that setting the fuel level is at about 1/2 way up the sight plug hole.



IF you set the floats as instructed AND fuel comes out of the annular boosters, then the inlet valves are sticking open. With ethanol in the gas, just about 10 days with no fuel will do that.

You don't need to replace the valves but they will need to be blown out with compressed air (about 20 psi) and you need to verify that they are operating with the rising and fall of the floats.



It does sound like there isn't enough fuel in the bowls.



If you set the distributor in place with #1 at TDC and the rotor is pointing at #1, then it is in right.

Make sure the plug wires are in correct order, you have the matching rotor for the distributor cap that you have.


At this point there are only two reasons an engine doesn't run. 1) no fuel 2) no ignition.

Everything else is "tuning" or as we say, "the Devil is in the details".
...Yes, the Ground cable that would go to the Engine Block. at or near the Starter Motor. That's where I put it. When You wired up the Ignition according to the Instructions, I'll bet it's correct!

One more thing...If the Fuel Pump is NOT Pumping Fuel, did the Mechanic Remember to re-Install the Pumps' 'Excentric Cam' Back Onto the face of the Cam Drive Sprocket?
If this should be the case, then just plumb-in a Electric Fuel Pump.

There are 2 'TDC's!! The WRONG one is at the top of the Exhaust Stroke!! You Want it at the top of the Compression Stroke! Check it with a Finger in the #1 Spark Plug Hole!!
You will feel the Pressure as Both Valves will be Closed.
Only THEN, is the Rotor pointed at the #1 Plug Terminal!
Last edited by marlinjack
quote:
4. Carefully recheck the Fireing Order of the Spark Plug wires. The Cleveland is: 13725648 2 Wires can be switched and the Engine will still start and run, only Crappy as you described.



I agree with Marlin on this one (and I know you said you checked, but....)

The Pantera Manual I have (the white "Technical Manual", Section 23-01-09) shows two firing orders. There is a diagram and listing that is not correct for the 351C.

The diagram shows: 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8

The 351C and the Pantera uses 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

So I am sorry to be telling you to check what you have already looked at, but I have to say that the manual caught me by surprise....

Good Luck -

Rocky

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Last edited by rocky
Thanks a ton guys, PanteraDoug. For the auto carb ignorant, where are the sight plugs located on a Holley? Also, where are the annular boosters and inlet valves located at? I will google some holley carb diagrams but figured I would at least ask.


Marlin Jack, yes we installed the excentric Cam back onto the face of the Cam drive sprocket. The round kinda sloppy loose piece that has a bolt in the center correct?

I definitely would prefer an electrical fuel pump and may make the swap if this one doesn't get to working.

Thanks for the TDC info, that clears things up. I'll have to check on that and confirm. Is there any easy way to tell if the distributor is off a few teeth? A guy on another forum said that the vaccuum advance should be facing forward and that I am probably 3 teeth off on the distributor and maybe 1 tower off on the wires. My mechanic buddy thought the MSD distributor just had the vaccuum advance in a different location but he very well may be wrong.


Rocky, I will double check the firing order one more time the number that you said is correct is what I used.


Thanks again guys,
Spencer
quote:
Originally posted by rsm688:
Thanks a ton guys, PanteraDoug. For the auto carb ignorant, where are the sight plugs located on a Holley? Also, where are the annular boosters and inlet valves located at? I will google some holley carb diagrams but figured I would at least ask.


Marlin Jack, yes we installed the excentric Cam back onto the face of the Cam drive sprocket. The round kinda sloppy loose piece that has a bolt in the center correct?

I definitely would prefer an electrical fuel pump and may make the swap if this one doesn't get to working.

Thanks for the TDC info, that clears things up. I'll have to check on that and confirm. Is there any easy way to tell if the distributor is off a few teeth? A guy on another forum said that the vaccuum advance should be facing forward and that I am probably 3 teeth off on the distributor and maybe 1 tower off on the wires. My mechanic buddy thought the MSD distributor just had the vaccuum advance in a different location but he very well may be wrong.


Rocky, I will double check the firing order one more time the number that you said is correct is what I used.


Thanks again guys,
Spencer


Oh Boy? Listen to me carefully. Put down the tools and back away from the engine slowly.

Get this book. Read it. Then go back to what you are doing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Ho...?hash=item58984b1642
We found TDC at compression by turning over the motor with the rocker cover off and finding with the front valve (closest to front of the block) (can't remember if it is intake or exhaust, mechanic buddy knew though) on cylinder 1 opened and turned it til the timing mark on the balancer was lined up and pulled the distributor cover and the rotor was pointing directly at cylinder 1

Figured out the fuel issue, hooked a mityvac up to the fuel line off the carb and it had pressure but nothing came out at all like it was clogged. I pulled the lines off the pump and found the pump clogged full of old rubber where the rubber line attaches to the pump coming from the metal line off the frame. Looks like the hose broke down and clogged it up. Replaced the fuel pump, and rubber fuel lines. Stuck the mity vac back on near the carb after and fuel sucked right on through so one issue solved.

Pulled the plugs and they were black. Plugs were new right before we figured cam had wiped a lobe and replaced it. They weren't super bad but they definitely were black. Got a new set to throw in before we try to fire her up again.

Have a new Fel-Pro valley pan gasket for the 4V manifold coming that will be here Tuesday that should seal up the intake manifold if it's leaking. We put a blow gun onto one of the vaccuum ports on the manifold and blew air in and sprayed some fluid around the port areas looking for bubbles but didn't see any. I'm still not confident its not leaking though.

Once the new manifold gaskets get here and we get them on we will try to fire her up again. What should the initial timing be sat at for a 351C before trying to fire it up. We started at 10* tried around 14* and 20* and also tried around 5* with no luck in any range. Very well may have been due to these other issues going on. Should I try it at 10* again or a little higher?



Thanks,

Spencer
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
quote:
Originally posted by rsm688:
Thanks a ton guys, PanteraDoug. For the auto carb ignorant, where are the sight plugs located on a Holley? Also, where are the annular boosters and inlet valves located at? I will google some holley carb diagrams but figured I would at least ask.


Marlin Jack, yes we installed the excentric Cam back onto the face of the Cam drive sprocket. The round kinda sloppy loose piece that has a bolt in the center correct?

I definitely would prefer an electrical fuel pump and may make the swap if this one doesn't get to working.

Thanks for the TDC info, that clears things up. I'll have to check on that and confirm. Is there any easy way to tell if the distributor is off a few teeth? A guy on another forum said that the vaccuum advance should be facing forward and that I am probably 3 teeth off on the distributor and maybe 1 tower off on the wires. My mechanic buddy thought the MSD distributor just had the vaccuum advance in a different location but he very well may be wrong.


Rocky, I will double check the firing order one more time the number that you said is correct is what I used.


Thanks again guys,
Spencer


Oh Boy? Listen to me carefully. Put down the tools and back away from the engine slowly.

Get this book. Read it. Then go back to what you are doing.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Ho...?hash=item58984b1642



Lol, I will get to reading on my Holley carbs. I have a few days til the new intake manifold gaskets arrive to brush up
If you have 2v heads you need a 2v inlet manifold.

If your inlet manifold is a 4v it is likely not to seal properly on the 2v heads. This will cause all kinds of tuning problems.

If you want to use a 4 barrel carb on a 2v engine buy one of the many alloy aftermarket intake manifolds available that have 2v ports and a 4 barrel carb flange.

Also what harmonic balancer are you using ?

Is it new or is it the old original one ?

If it is the old one the outer ring may have slipped and the timing marks may now be in the wrong place.

Get number one cylinder (front left as you stand in front of the engine) to top dead centre on the firing stroke, look at the rockers and hold a piece of steel wire with your fingers in the spark plug hole if you have to and feel the piston as it rises to the top and pauses there , then check the marks on the balancer and see if they are correct.

One or two degrees out will be ok that is probably inaccuracy in you finding top dead centre but if it is 10 or 20 degrees out or more your balancer needs replacing, trying to time the engine from a balancer with a outer ring that has moved will be impossible.

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