New brakes and rotors

Heres what I made up .
Ron

and the rear ... a larger dia then 12. ?? would have been easier.

Ron

That looks nice Ron. Are you thinking of going larger? Have you ever looked for a rear upright that may not be quite as heavy? Corvette?

Doesn't Hall have rear billet aluminum uprights? They did.

I saw them in the catalog. I wonder how much lighter they are and if he still offers them. I have trips out west from time to time. I got a couple places I may be able to stop by.

I am not quite ready to be addressing the suspension but I do have things I have been thinking about. I don't mind building new a-arms if need be. I am not so concerned about dropping the weight of the a-arms as they are 50% of the unsprung effect. That's a lot of work for little gain unless I am looking at 1/100 of a second lap times at Daytona speedway.

I am more concerned about the heavy brakes, rotors and uprights. Some of the changes may require new a-arms anyway. What ever it takes to not use spacers to keep the scrub radius to a minimum.

With the Campy wheel I did forget to flip the rotor as Ron did in his photo. That may give the clearance needed in the Campy.

Gary,

With the 18 & 17" wheels I could have gone larger and would have made the bracket easier to make ... there was conflict with the bolts with the 12" rotors. I have an extra set of brackets if you need them.

I would like a set of lighter uprigths ? whats the cost ?


Ron

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Doesn't Hall have rear billet aluminum uprights? They did.

Precision Proformance now make the alloy uprights that take all stock parts inside. Not sure on theirs but they seem identical to Hall's which were about 10 lbs lighter per side. They are around $2500 a pair naked or 'more' if you want them assembled. Billet axles are a couple of pounds heavier than stock or current 'factory' replacement axles. The uprights are (or were) made of 7075-T6, so cannot be welded on if things go wrong.... I've written numerous articles on lightening up the entire car as well as dropping the unsprung weight by almost 50%- without alloy uprights. Currently, our '72 L model weighs 2690 lbs ready to run with 1/2 tank of gas, A/C, stereo & 10-disc changer, and fiberglas 'L' bumpers on both ends, and is street-licensed. Details in various POCA newsletters going back 20 years- this is a VERY long-term project! FWIW, our brakes are early Porsche 911 vented rotors with aluminum hats- on both ends- with Wilwood Superlite calipers in front, Porsche 911S aluminum calipers in rear and no adapters needed on either end. These rotors are 0.81 thick x 11-3/4" OD. I also run Wilwood mechanical calipers on custom brackets attached to the stock e-brake cables, which work fine as e-brakes.

Bosswrench ..I would like to read the articles you ahve writen can you direct me to their where abouts ?


" I've written numerous articles on lightening up the entire car as well as dropping the unsprung weight by almost 50%- without alloy uprights."


Thanks Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Gary,

With the 18 & 17" wheels I could have gone larger and would have made the bracket easier to make ... there was conflict with the bolts with the 12" rotors. I have an extra set of brackets if you need them.

I would like a set of lighter uprigths ? whats the cost ?

Ron

Thanks Ron, I am not sure what else I will change. I can have my neighbor laser cut them and get them back faster then you can ship them. Did you notice mine were generation 1 uprights?

The brakes and calipers made a huge difference in weight and was all unsprung. Did you weigh the difference. I have not yet but the old set is far heavier to carry around then the new set.

I think the aluminum up rights is the obvious way to go. As much improvement there is in the brakes and calipers, I move the rear upright assembly around with a 2-wheeler and that just ain't right. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the weight is.

I may change the a-arms for other reasons but more for geometry reasons. I don't care to spend time to lighten weight from the a-arm or axle as it does not have near the effect of the rear upright, brakes, calipers, and rims with proper back spacing (removing spacer).

But that's just me. If I am last one going around the track I don't think you will notice a change with a-arms or other items with 1/2 unsprung weight.

Gary,

Didnt see that picture of the gen 1 uprights ..my plan was to at least clean up the castings of the spindles and uprights ..saving a little wieght then shot blasting them.

Not sure you can acomplish this with a lazer cutter. The thickness of the brackets you can see are .350 & .583 respecively of including a shim of ..060 (if memory serves me ..so that future you have some play if something needs a slight adjustment. I had Mel and his factory at my disposal.

No doubt there is a weight diffence .. but mine decision was actually .. after doing 165mph and coming in hard into a sharp right turn @ Pocono and having the stock brakes go soft ... I thought it was an abvious upgrade. Should ahve gone larger ..I could put these on 9138 ..but I;m going to revert it back to bone stock.

The aluminum uprights ..we might be talking a strength issue in a place you may not want to sacrifice that.

" proper back spacing (removing spacer). " thats is why I stuck with the HAT BEHIND THE AXLE .. to add back spacing.

If you change all this I think you will be the first going around the track .

I have to tell you one thing 9138 at POCONO I can assure you the PANTERA handles WELL with a SOFT suspension ... bone stock the car handles very well .. STIFFEN HERE UP and you have to be sure your going to have to change A LOT OF things ...

Take a look at this book I have had for about 20 years " COMPETITION SET UP by Pro-Motion Enterprises Inc. 1973 ... some of the pictures in the book resemble a PANTERA.

Ron

That looks like another good book. I will go find it.

I have been thinking of looking at some Corvette uprights. It is not my mission right now. Likely I will concentrate on getting the car together and making further changes down the road. Right now priority is getting any necessary mock ups done and body work in prep for paint.

Uhm, It's time for another baby photo!

The criticism of all of the "billet aluminum" suspension that Hall made was that it was untested for racing stresses.

Now he apparently installed it on all of his "super Panteras" but were any of them raced to the point of verifying that they wouldn't break?

Driving around on the streets is one thing, even in NY, but racing is a different animal.

I am pretty sure that Bob at Precision Proformance is his son in law and that he is the one that made the stuff back then and still makes it today.

Talking to Gary back then, he would not give you the impression that he owned these other shops, he said that he did.

He told me, that HE made wheels for Boyd Codington in HIS wheel facilaty.

He told me that HE owned the molds for the 10" Campi wheels, that HE had bought them from Campagnolo. At that time The Shelby Wheel Co was still operating and Gary said that was who was making the wheel castings with Halls molds.

I am not 007 and can not verify this stuff. This is what Gary Hall told me. I don't know where the BS stops.

Agreed with Ron on the 'stock" suspension. You don't need to go crazy with it. It is very capable as is. Just my humble opinions.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

Agreed with Ron on the 'stock" suspension. You don't need to go crazy with it. It is very capable as is. Just my humble opinions.

Ah but a guys got to do something in life right?

Ok my 2 cents on what I read leads me to 3 item on my suspension I'm going to change.

One is the top shock mounts ..I would like to add a mount higher ..so I can go LOWER.

two both front and rear I need more adjustment capabilties. for camber and caster.

Third is the upper a arms need the top mount to also go higher...because when you go lower they shoot down to the chassis mount ..this causes too much change in the camber as the suspension goes up and down.

Ron

Interesting. One thing I had thought about doing a long time ago was cutting off the susp mounts and making removable suspension mounts with bolts through them. This way if you wanted to change or experiment with height (I was thinking anti dive at the time) you could fab on different mount heights.

As far as the a-arms I know your a crafted welder Ron. My thought was just to build a jig. If I wanted to tweak the a-arm, if the a-arm was out of range I could adjust the jig and craft another one.

Also the upper suspension mounts could be tied directly to each other left and right; as long as you do not put a lowered battery box in. This was the primary reason I decided not to put a lower battery box in. In fact I think this would be even a better spot for a chassis rigidity mount.

The rear mount would gain the most from a direct connection left and right as the front attach goes right through the steering box. You have access to it from there but the steering box is pretty rigid.

The idea of a higher location for the shock/spring is because I want the shock to be in the center of it travel up and down.

The jig is a great idea ... but I was looking at aftermarket front mustang upper control arms and add a 1/4" steel plate to mount them to. Or possbily fabing them up with some light wieght chromoly tube.

Ron

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
The idea of a higher location for the shock/spring is because I want the shock to be in the center of it travel up and down.

The jig is a great idea ... but I was looking at aftermarket front mustang upper control arms and add a 1/4" steel plate to mount them to. Or possbily fabing them up with some light wieght chromoly tube.

Ron

Love the idea. Are you going to stick with the same uprights? I was looking at different uprights because I of some things I was looking at (more common bearings, ball joints, etc) but the more I did the more I decided to stick with the Pantera upright. It has a AIA around 7-8 degrees where some of the after markets I have seen are 12-15 degrees which raises the tire more in turns.

I bought some Chrome molly to build mine.....$$$$$

By making your own I like the idea of taking the rim you already have and working the suspension without back spacing keeping scrub to a minimum.

The guys that cut my metal have a suspension shop making parts for dropped trucks. Not my thing but the jigs were really cool and the welding these guys do....Well....gives me a complex! Damn fine welding!

Sorry ..had to run out ..there was a fire alarm at my shop ... my buddy called me ... ends up it was the bldg next door.

Anyway .. I have to complete the body then I will head back to the suspension. I;m having ahard enough time getting my motor finished ...see hat happens when you do favors ... I put AC in the engine builders shop ..so we exchanged favors ..now my engine is last ... 1.5 years its been there ..monday I go collect my parst and send him a Invoice for the AC ..when he gets the Invoice..he will wish he completed my motor. LOL
Ron

I am sure glad it wasn't your building. Don't much care for fires!

Your telling me ... just what I need now in a shitty economy is a major loss.

R

Does your place smell like smoke now?

Good discussion guys...

On the Aluminum uprights I seem to recall there were some issues raised previously with Hall units, outer bearing race spinning in the hub or something of the like. There was a guy at POCA Fun Rally 2 years ago supposedly coming up with a new hub system to include CV axles, I hear a bit of chatter infrequently on the e-mail list but I think its still in the wings.

Ron as you know I played around with the adjustable Mustang control arms from SPC. I dropped it for now, but SPC sell all the components separately. The challenge is finding ball joints wit the correct taper. First I came to the conclusion that using a Pantera rear ball joint may be the way to go with the bolt in SPC control arm and a fabbed mounting.

For now I have done the 'Johnny Woods' mod to the existing front upper a-arms to add caster, easy to do and you don't really need more than caster/camber change ability. On the rear I have had some GT5 style adjustable uppers made. For serious track I'd likely go to a full heim jointed system if anything, but in terms of doing it for the weight savings to be gained its probably minimal for the effort.

Instead of moving the shock mounts why not move to a shorter shock? For the QA1's the usual Pantera one is the DR5855B (17" extended & 11.6" collapsed), but you can go shorter to the DR4855B (14" extended & 10.1" collapsed), which would allow you to sit lower.

Julian

Gary turns out there was a leak in cplg in the dry spr systems and set off the alarm .thanks god.

Julian I have a set of KONI's from Quella and at the ride hieght I want they will be mid travel ... but I;m worried once I lighten up the car it will sit high..then I will have to uncrew the adjuster and then it will be enar the bottom of the travel .. an extra postion add now would give me options ..isntead of welding after the car and compartment is painted ..and I love options.

R

Could you also lower the lower a-arm attach point?

from what I read and research other set ups ..the lower A arms ..level is perfect ..the uppers should have a slight angle down towards the frame .. contrary to my previous thoughts and making them level .. they say it reacts best bumps and cornering ... but TOO MUCH of an angle down could also create too much camber .. I guess that why in drag racing we used to have mutiple positions to change the suspension points.

Ron

If one were making new uprights there might be a slight advantage to mounting the calipers as low as possible for a lower center of gravity.
Mark