Oil Pressure??.. What say you??...

standard oil pump = volume and pressure - will be fine for a street 351C

I have a mechanical VDO gauge and run about 75 on start up, 65 or so once warmed-up and at speed.

Lower at idle, of course.

Larry

Not sure what setup I have but with the engine at full operating temp on a hot Atlanta day the pressure is a shade under 30 pounds with a 750 - 800 RPM idle and near 80 pounds at any RPM over 1700. On cold start up idle it is at 80 pounds. Haven’t had drive gear problems in the last eleven years. My oil pressure sender is in the stock position on the back of the engine. I think they recommend 10 lbs of oil pressure per 1000 RPM.

Mike

Contrary to what I have been told ..I run a High pressure spring and a high volume pump with 5w 30 and I have 40 at idle and 80 at high rpm and have no issues with distributor gears.

Ron

The rule of thumb is you need 10 psi for every 1000 rpm. 7000 rpm, 70 psi.

I wouldn't feel comfortable with only 40 at 7000 with any engine.

Now if you are going to run a Cleveland to 7000 or above it is highly advisable to sleeve the lifters and that will fix the oiling issues for all intents and purposes.

When people talk about Clevelands having high speed oiling problems they are talking about over 7000 rpm. Even the old Pro-stock Clevelands that Gapp & Rousch ran were just stock block Clevelands with oil restrictors in the lifters. Those were 8,500 rpm engines.

With all the talk about the oil pump relying on the roll pin in the distributor shaft how many do you actually know of that have failed? If it does you will loose the ignition gear drive and the engine will shut off anyway.

Run a TRW HV oil pump. It will give you 80 psi cold and never drop under 65. If you are running a hydraulic lifter camshaft you could use that pressure anyway to try to approach the advertised lift on the cam.

The set up I have is... Melling 84A oil pump, Relief Spring # 22850, and Heavy shaft #22565... These parts came under the best advice I could find, I'm sure it will be just fine. I really need to find a quality roll pin for my dist gear/shaft, I don't want an "off the shelf" chink pin.

That's all good in theory but how are you going to tell the difference?

Go to an oiling specialist like Aviaid. Tell them your story and do what they tell you, is the best advice I can give you.

I think you are over thinking this and over reacting. In changing out the existing pin you are more likely to do harm then not.

Use a Motorcraft distributor and leave it alone. If you go to crap like Accell or Mallory you are more likely to find generic Chinese parts in them.

Just my opinion which is one of 300 million in this country alone.

Over thinking and over reacting is probably the nicest thing anyone could say about my approach to this cat. I can't really afford this car and I am trying to be very careful, correct everything on the car and get it right. I have been trying to make any improvemnet to all systems that would make the power plant more comfortable. I guess at some point I need to just let it ride and go with it. It's been over two years since I have driven this car. I'm ready to get on w/it...

The stock engine is the most reliable component of the original car. The 73-4 US cars are noticible more dependable then the first ones.

This had to do a lot with Fords involvement in the Pantera.

The two piece valve in the original engine will get you eventually if you put enough miles on it.

The solid state Motorcraft ignition was not available quite yet to the car and it adds a good deal of dependability to the car if added. "Taxi tested tough".

A lot of the problems with the wiring stem from the difficulty in servicing it without stressing the harness.

The stock, as delivered '74 car is difficult to improve reliabilty on.

Recent developements with electronic updating will improve the car 1000%.

"Updating" the engine, if you know what you are doing", will give it more go power.

But think about what some people are adding. For instance, aftermarket roller cams? Those are strait out of the drag racing parts books and have lousy dependability in everyday use.

The reason many put this stuff in the car is because they want to increase dependability and the result can be exactly the opposite. They wind up shooting themselves in the foot.

This car is hard to work on and the simplest things can be expensive to do.

You want to make the car so that you NEVER have to go into the engine again. Changing the oil is all you want to have to do.

Stay away from aftermarket distributors and go with a Motorcraft electronic distributor and brain and you will have gone along way towards increasing the dependability of the engine, including the oiling drive.

quote:

the roll pin in the distributor shaft, how many do you actually know of that have failed?

Off hand, two.

Dennis "Mad Dawg" Antenucci's new MSD at the start of a Silver State. His only, I believe, DNF.

And about 2003, on the trip home from Vegas, I watched as Cal's mostly stock Pantera slowed and pulled off into the center median with a roll pin that sheared while driving down the interstate. Hour later, he was back on the road, courtesy of the PCNC on-the-road, never-leave-a-man-behind philosophy.

The snapping roll pin IS NOT an urban myth.

Larry

First of all MSD right there is your problem. The racers insist on running them...and changing the failed parts...and changing the failed parts, etc, etc, etc.

Lord they have eyes yet they do not see.

OK. Lets presume that the Pantera that you speak of Larry is a Motorcraft. Got some more?

I'll be you a nickel that every one of the failed Motorcraft distributors was previously taken out and apart and rebuilt or blueprinted by a local yokel?

Of course if this is so common a problem, where are the ARP chrome moly replacements?

I don't get it. How do you guys sleep at night? After all there COULD BE someone hinding under the bed or in the closet. That's been documented too?

how many do you actually know of that have failed?

Mine failed but it was due to a chunk of permatex which someone put inside the female thread and then screwed in the pick up ... found it compressed in the oil pump ... I do agree with Doug should a double roll pin be installed ..because if something like this would happen again ... what would be the weak link ..the shaft if the pin dosent shear off ?

Ron

My roll pin failed earlier this year about a month after getting the car. Not sure why (maybe I have a disintegrating nylon coating on the timing gears which the oil pump picked up?), but yes, the distributor gear had obviously been apart and redrilled before my time and a spiral pin had been inserted. I put a conventional good quality (i.e. it came with various quality certification numbers) hardened roll pin in have driven approx 2000- 3000 km since then and it hasn't broken again. But I carry a couple of spares in the car permanently :-)
Cheers, Tim.

Forgot to say I have Ford Duraspark distributor and 'brain'.
Cheers, Tim.

I bet you that every one that has failed has been apart. The implication is simply that they haven't been reassembled properly.

If you are going to buy a rebuild Motorcraft distributor buy one from a certified Ford rebuilder. If you get it from Autozone...you gonna be in da' zone.

Actually I bought a new one from Ford Racing.

You wanna talk about aftermarket crap? The teeth on the camshaft for the distributor drive broke off of the cam before I installed the thing.

It was a CompCam and they replaced it free to me but they said they weren't responsible for that and it was just a courtesy so I would come back.

I guess they were gonna blame it on Ho Chi Min or something?

They said that they don't inspect every cam blank. The number at that time was 1 in 5.

Someone has got to start to pay people again and forget about the CEO getting a 25 million dollar bonus. This crap has got to stop.

...I have had the drive pin shear on the Distributor because it was a cheap roll pin that was harded as hard as Glass! I replaced it with a Higher Quality Pin and added another pin through it's center. No Problems as yet. Here is a short lesson for you guys on the Physics of Hydraulics!! There is NO such thing as A High Pressure Pump!! Because the Pump Does NOT produce PRESSURE! It only Produces a FLOW of Fluid!! 'They' are a HIGH FLOW Pump! The Pressure comes from the 'Resistance to Flow'! Hence, The tighter the Bearings(and other componants)...(Including but Not limited to the FRICTION of the Oil to the Walls, Bends, Fittings, Etc. of the System 'Conduits'(Hoses,Tubes))...the Higher the reading of the Pressure Gauge! The more worn the Bearings (and other), The Lower the Readings. So, the Pressure Gauge Reading is NO indication of the Efficiency of a Pump; You need a 'Flow Gauge' For that! In My case; I have ALL of the Pumped Oil Flowing 6 Feet (-10 Size), to the rear or the Pantera, to a Double Oil Filter and a Oil Cooler (Mounted at the Rear Screen) with an Electric Fan that comes on when I hit the Switch, that use to be used for the A/C Fan(Now Removed Forever). Then the Oil Flows back 6 Feet, in -10 (.5" I.D.) Size Stainless Hose to the Block, to the Adaptor where the 'Original' Filter use to mount. My Digital Oil Pressure Gauge 'Sender' is Mounted in the Original Position at the Rear of the Block ALONG with a Size -8 Stainless Hose going to the Port in the Block near the Fuel Pump(Known to You as a 'By-Pass'! There is NO Starvation of Oil over this 12 Feet of Hose because The Entire Length is FILLED with the Oil and the Force is TransMitted 'Continuously' along it's Entire Length!! Which Happens to be the Definition of the term Hydraulics! Now, I have installed the 'Melling High Volume(Flow)' Pump; I run Valvoline VR-1 Racing oil 20W-50 (Because it has the ZDDP additive). At Start-Up, Idleing, I get 51 PSIG, when Hot I have 49 PSIG at Idle. Cruising I see 53. At Higher RPM I see 53 (havn't really been over 4000 RPM with this gauge as yet). High Pressure is Not as Important as the Flow! Because it is the FLOW of oil the Removes the Heat and Debis and 'Allows for Fresh Oil to Enter!! 30 PSI is Plenty to provide a 'Full Flow Film' to prevent 'Metal to Metal contact', at which point this is known as 'Boundry Film'(when the 'High' points on the surface of the Metal First Make Contact)! Your answer is: A heavier 'Bypass' Spring in Your Oil Pump Does NOT increase the Pressure!! It RAISES the Maximum Pressure that must be attained in order for the By-Pass Valve to 'Crack Open'! The Increase in Pressure comes from and Increase in the Restriction to Flow;such as a Clogged Filter. OR at a Higher RPM the FLOW will be increased. And at a Given Restriction this would Result in a Higher Pressure reading of the Gauge. The increase of Pressure does NOT come from the Pump itself!! Higher RPM equates TO Higher GPM (Gallon Per Minute). Higher Flow at A given Ristriction will determine the PRESSURE! The Higher reading on Your Gauge is a Result of the Total 'Resistance' to that INCREASED Flow!!! Period!!
I am up at Delta College finishing another 'Machinist' Degree, now completing the Final Class, which just so happens to be 'Industrial Hydraulics'. Out of 24 Students I am Number One in the Class! So take it for what it's worth! All the best! Marlin...

...Doug You would lose that Bet! The pin that I found sheared, was on a Brand-New, Never disassembled Distributor. Hard as Glass it broke into 3 pieces, 1 in the center of the shaft and 2 on each side of the Gear! You ARE correct about the Engine imediately Stopping! I was cruising up Highway 99 at 80 MPH, in the Far Left Lane, when the Engine Just Quit! I imediately Knew it was the Pin, because the Oil Pressure Gauge was at '0' Zero. I put In the clutch so as Not to Rotate the Engine with No Oil; and coasted with the momentum. I managed to 'Throw' The Cat over Three lanes of traffic and onto the Right-Hand Shoulder. Sitting in the Pantera with Cellphone in hand, I called AAA and was picked up on a Flatbed Transport not 20 Minutes later. On later inspection I found Nothing in the Oil Pump Gears! Must have been the 'Blast' of Power on the Entrance ramp onto the Freeway just before the Breakage...

I never heard anyone complain about this except the Pantera guys?

Marlin. Was it a Ford distributor?

I'll pay up. I only ever bet a nickel. Send me your address.

So... should I drive another pin inside the factory MSD pin??? Should I contact MSD for a better pin???... Should I contact a vendor for a hardend pin??... Should I just run the car and not worry about it??...

...PLT-1 couldn't hurt to add a smaller pin inside, You might sleep easier at night; or drive a little more relaxed. Doug! Your right again! It was NOT a Ford Distributor, it was a New Mallory Unilite! It had a very cheap 'Scroll' Pin, like a piece of spiral/coiled up Sheet Metal. Keep Your Nickle! You can buy the Pretzles and I'll buy You a Beer if We should ever Meet-Up!...

It's a deal...but you gotta show me the 2x4 holley set-up?

Marlin,

" There is NO such thing as A High Pressure Pump!! Because the Pump Does NOT produce PRESSURE!"

If you install a heavier spring on the relief of the pump ... it sure does produce a higher pressure. Take each pump put it on a bench and spin them at the same rpm and see what you find ? We do this with a Triple Duty valve to create a load on a pump to get a higher head pressure. Same principle. So I guess my 26 years in the Mechanical Business have been all an illusion.

"High Pressure is Not as Important as the Flow!"

And here my friend is the problem ..351C have a flow problem .. 2 engines side by side one with a high volume pump and the other a high volume pump and heavier relief spring both have the same head pressure ( resistance ) raise the pressure on one and add light wieght oil ( heavy wieght oil puts undue stress on teh distributor gear) and you will be pumping more gpm thru the motor .. loose tolerances in a motor .. it works for me on the race track .. no spun bearings, no broken timing gears, and the motor last longer. You want to move oil thru the motor. The temperature will be less and again cause less stress on parts that are known to break.

Ron

Down under, where the 351 C is a very common engine, this does happen.
I have had it happen many times over the years. must admit not with the std dizzy.
Not many of em over here run the std dizzy.Points are so ... last week !
Never had issues with the proper 3/16 roll pin, but other comanies use smaller dia springs, which don't help !
I try to use wherever possible std pump with std pressure spring.
This last engine we did has a bit of extra clearance in the cam tunnel and runs 10 psi @ idle which is marginal but 50 psi @ 2000, so we are leaving it alone

Wow. What a surprise. Seems like all the broken distributors are after market? Imagine that?

Didn't anyone hear me say...something along those lines? I think you guys just want to hear what you want to? No problem at all for me. I'm just trying to share what I know on the subject. I am not the expert on it.

DU. Points are a thing of the past here too. If you are going to replace that distributor my suggestion is to use the pointless Motorcraft unit with the separate brain.

It can be plugged into aftermarket CPU's painlessly if need be and if you need parts for it here you can get them at just about any part stores. I don't know about Australia though. Everything is kind of upside down there and all those Joeies jumping around and Dingos howling and the moon and all?

Fords replacement parts although not perfect by any means are still the best by far. Mallory and MSD should be deported as illegal immigrants in my opinion. None of there parts are made here.

Better yet, just load them into a cannon a shoot them back to where the came from. The stuff, although admittedly pretty, is crap. Don't want to listen, ok. Better carry a spare distributor with you in my opinion. Of course how you are going to do a distributor in a Pantera roadside is a pretty neat trick?

...Yes Cobra! Your 'Head' of Pressure was built-up From the Resistance to the Flow! GPM IS a Measurement of Flow. When You have NO Resistance at The OUTPUT of the Pump; and Put a Pressure Gauge at that Point, On the side, In Paralell to the Curcuit, Not Blocking, Causing Resistance! The gauge will Read Zero!! Because You won't be able to build up a 'Head' Of Pressure. Those are the facts!... And Perhaps You ARE suffering under an Illusion! I've Been in the Business Over 40 Years!!...

On the ever-recurring oil pressure subject, I'll add that very high pressures- however generated- can cause their own problems while not really curing anything. Specificaly, oil pressures in the engine over about 85 psi can cause lifter pumpup and valve float with hydrauilc cams (either flat tappet or hydraulic rollers) and also bearing erosion. In almost all non-drag race engines, a standard pump with std bearing clearances will give you 65-75 psi hot at 2500 rpms, and 15-20 psi hot at idle. No bigger pump is necessary unless you run oil coolers and remote oil filters on long undersized lines with lots of bends and fittings.
Note that you cannot get any meaningful info from a stock in-dash gauge, either. They are almost all inaccurate to the low side and there is no fix aside from complete replacement with a different brand. The problem is an inherent electrical mismatch between the Italian-made gaude and the U.S. made sender. I once borrowed 10 brand new stock senders from a vendor and ran them on our '72; I got 8 different pressures. And a mechanical gauge teed into the sender port gave a 9th reading- higher than all the electric gauge readings. As a rule of thumb with Clevelands, if you see REAL oil pressures below 5 psi at idle and below 30 psi at 2500 rpms hot, drive directly to the engine shop before you are forced to sweep up the guts of your engine off the street! A mechanical gauge added to the stock pickup on a 1/4-pipe tee will put your low-oil pressure fears to rest. Thomas Tornblom in Sweden did a comprehensive electrcal analysis on the oil gauge and its sender in the Sept 02 POCA News.
Note also that my cheap mechanical gauge is still teed in place on our engine after 16 years so its durability is also not an issue; the stock gauge I use as a 'warning light'. If I want to know real oil pressures (rarely), I open the decklid and look at the mechanical gauge. Finally, most of the thrown rods in wrecked 351-Cs I've seen are from the #1 and #2 cylinders- the two closest to the oil pump. So in my opinion, most so-called "flow problems" in a Cleveland aren't oil-flow related.

Sure there is a sender. That is a standard thing for Ford production cars. I believe that it comes on at under 10psi but it's a long time since I thought about it.

It threads into the oil system near the oil filter.

If you use the oem oil pump drive shaft the oem distributor gear roll pin works fine. The heavy duty, non-twisting oil pump drive shaft is what causes all the trouble.

The gearotor oil pump does not like to pass debris, the rotor tries to stall which puts strain on the oil pump drive shaft. The oem shaft twists to absorb that strain. The replacement heavy duty oil pump drive shafts don't twist, so it shears the little roll pin holding the gear on the shaft. That gear should be a very tight fit on the shaft even without the pin, if the gear fits the shaft loosely it will only make the tendency to shear the pin worse.

The purpose of the heavy duty oil pump drive shaft is to reduce "spark scatter" which occurs when the oem oil pump drive shaft twists. Ford guys running a heavy duty oil pump drive shaft used to install a small secondary roll pin inside the oem roll pin. The current practice today is to replace the oem roll pin with a spiral wound roll pin, the same type of pin used by MSD in it's distributors. But I guess you guys are saying those are the pins that are shearing. I've never heard that one before.

Doug mentioned that breaker points are old school, well in my opinion distributors are old school. Conversion to a Ford EDIS-8 is the current trend out amongst the Ford world. A crankshaft triggered distributorless ignition system (DIS) more precisely fires the ignition coils each and every revolution of the crankshaft, the ignition timing is more consistent from cylinder to cylinder, all of the timing functions are set electronically and operate perfectly forever, there is nothing mechanical to wear out or service. Unlike single coil distributor ignitions in which performance falls off at high RPM a DIS provides full spark energy at any real-world engine speed. With a DIS there is no spark scatter, no cross-firing and no misfiring.

On to the subject of the oil pump.

If the bearing clearances in a Cleveland are set properly (0.0025") the standard volume oil pump provides plenty of oil. I know drag racers turning the Cleveland to 9500 rpm with standard volume oil pumps even with 0.0035" bearing clearances. However, I think one could make a case to run the high volume oil pump when the clearances are opened up for high rpm drag racing. And running a high volume oil pump won't hurt anything, even if it isn't needed. However, the best Ford recommendation is to blueprint the standard volume pump, setting the rotor clearances at 0.002" to 0.003", and run the high pressure spring as recommended by Ford. Be sure to use an oil filter designed for higher pressure. Ford also installed an improved oil pump pick-up in the Boss 351, installed a baffle/windage tray in the oil pan and filled the pan with an extra quart of oil.

There are other considerations for building a Boss 351, 7200 rpm spec lubrication system. But that covers the oil pump.

I will respond in saying I agree with George "However, the best Ford recommendation is to blueprint the standard volume pump, setting the rotor clearances at 0.002" to 0.003", and run the high pressure spring as recommended by Ford."

WHY ? Because is you have a oil system with 1/4" oil passages and you put a guage to measure gpm at the end with all the leakage thru bearings clearances and lift bores ..at the end if you had 2 std pumps and one had a high pressure spring which one would read a greater gpm ? The higher pressure ...so in an engine with oil configeration issues where certain main bearings get oil first and others later ..which would be likely to provide an even flow of oil to the end mains ?

I hear the rest of the comments ..most issues are not even related to just the pump ... my experience with OIL ISSUES were mostly on a FE motor .. we restricted the rocker shafts, and opened up all the oil passages we could with long drill bits ... never spun a bearing @ 7200 rpm. Yes I agee there are other issues created ..there is always a trade off .. but not spun bearings and broken parts.

Take a peak at what our TUNER friends are doing. Lighter oil ! Higher pressures !

Ron

Ron are you running the 5w-30 in the Cleveland of Windsor block?

Doug,

I run 5w -30 in all my cars and my Service Vans ... Synthetic of course ... change it every 3500 - 5000 miles .. I have ford triton v8's in service vans that are known to fail because of oiling issues ... and knock on wood they are in the 130k - 150k mile range. I will agree oil leaks are more common due to the light wieght oil and some say due to the composition of the synthetic motor oil lacks what conventional oil has ?

Ron

I guess at some point I need to just let it ride and go with it. It's been over two years since I have driven this car. I'm ready to get on w/it...


My two cents

I’m a fairly new owner approaching two years. When I test drove my car I noticed midway through the test drive that the oil pressure was parked at 30 psi on the gauge. The owner said that the motor had 1K miles on it and he seemed like a decent guy. The motors appearance backed up the owner’s statement. I got the car home and started driving. I noticed significant oil consumption which turned out to be a loose intake manifold. Gaskets were replaced and I was on my way. As I became more familiar with the car I noticed that the oil pressure would go down under acceleration. Humm, what to do? I verified the pressure with a mechanical gauge, 50 psi gong down the road dropping to approx 30 under acceleration. I took it to a shop and they dropped the pan. The gasket at the oil pump/block junction had blown out. The gasket was replaced, pan reinstalled and there was no change to the oil pressure! I made many phone calls and spoke to lots of competent helpful folks some on this forum (thanks guys). After replacing the oil pump twice (1 high volume and 1 std. both melling), replacing the main and rod bearings, inspecting the lifter valley for cracks there was still no change. My car was up on blocks for about 4 of the last 10 months. When it was drivable I had to baby it because I didn’t want to damage the motor as it is stuffed with many fairly rare and expensive parts that I couldn’t afford to replace.

The bottom line

I didn’t give in and kept searching for the problem my gut told me was there. The culprit turned out to be an external oil cooler that had been plumbed with a 5’ run of -8 hose both ways. A check valve had been installed to allow the accusump to pressurize the system during startup. Somewhere is this setup was an obstruction that I believe was causing the oil pump to cavitate. My oil pressure now lives between 75-80 psi. and does not drop under acceleration.

In the comments above it sounded like your frustrated. I know now that these cars can do that to you. For me I couldn’t feel comfortable driving my car unless I had confidence in the car. Hopefully my experience will help someone else down the road.

CB

Thanks CB ... I am indeed frustrated. I have spent a butt load of money on this car and a few mistakes have been made. It has been the most difficult mechanical learning curve I have faced. I think/hope we are getting close now, I have replaced just about every system on the car. I hope to get a few years use out of it as I intend to drive it most days. My wife has a super hot rod which can't be driven every day so we intend to drive and enjoy the Pantera. I'm ready!! We are about to slip the engine back in it, I'm just all freaked out about the dist. gear, shearing off the pin, etc... As I mentioned, I'm just trying to proceed with care and make sure the engine and other systems are upgraded properly....