Original and Modified (A gentleman's discussion)

Funny, the EXACT SAME discussion just started up today over on the Jensen Forum because of this modified example....

Jensen Owners Club - Restore or Modernize

Mind you, the colors of the Jensens have always been quite more varied than our vehicles, but the bodywork and the mods to this are reminiscent of the Ring Brother's Pantera.

Interesting.

My $.02:

I prefer the classic lines. Bring the innards, performance and reliability up to modern car standards.

The neighbor behind me had the trim on their home painted. As an art director I can, with confidence, confirm it looks terrible. But, it's their house and they didn't ask for my opinion. Had they selected a more pleasing color, I would still feel the same: To each their own.

Haha, you got balls starting that thread, but should be good discussions. The "gentleman's discussion" adds a nice emphasis. I like both for what each is in itself, and probably shouldn't even be compared since both examples are so different. There is nothing like seeing a totally stock Pantera since they are a rarity time capsule, and there is also nothing like seeing an excellent modified Pantera too just to see the creativity involved which is usually to make it more exotic/super car looking and higher performing. Like this antique table we have in front of our couch, we could have left it alone "as is" with the patina, but damn it sure looks great all sanded down with a custom finish on it.

I still miss my basically stock orange Pantera for what it was "stock", but over time it got a bit plain looking to me and I just felt I needed more "oomph" in appearance and performance. I still love both though. When I see one at a show totally stock, I could stand there for hours just looking it over and thinking what people thought of that wild looking exotic back in the 1970s, whereas today it blends in with other exotics a bit more than way back then. Plus seeing a beautiful well built modified car at a show, can't help but look it all over for the craftsmanship, attention to detail, mirror paint job, etc and say Damn! All I can say though is if you want others respect for the car and to really make it stand out, then dump the money into it to make it a nice modified car. But some don't want to get close to $200K or so to build a real nice modified car, so we see all kinds of things out there. For instance we have all seen the standouts at car shows on hot rods that are done well, such as a $300K Nomad build for instance vs one that is just a run of the mill modified Nomad. Sure we all have limited dollars, but just saying that it often shows up in the builds too. But then the saying goes "well its my car", which is true too, but then don't expect everyone to gawk over it.

But not sure of the thought about the modifides bringing down the value of the originals. I thought it was more of the opposite, in that so many have been chopped into or otherwise modified that the true originals have increased in value just because of rarity. Like my antique table I messed with, now is less rare to a true collector in its new and improved state. But damn, it sure looks good!

Possibly value has much to do with modification.

Not so long ago the Pantera was a car that many people could afford to buy, prices were static for a long time, and the type of engine proved very good for power improvements.

Other cars of similar performance to the Pantera, the Ferrari, Maserati, and Lamborghini brigade, were not so easy to modify and were far more expensive.

Now Pantera prices are on the rise, only recently this question of originality has cropped up.

I think some folk myself included prefer a more or less standard Pantera perhaps with better seats and a handbrake mod, simply because there weren't too many made in the first place and another lost to the go faster and make it wider gods seems a pity.

But at the end of the day its your car, and your entitled to do what you will with it.

And good luck to you all.

I have advised the younger guys that ask...
If you think you will be happy with an "investment car" that must be carefully maintained and preserved then there is a significant potential for an up side even in a modest five year plan.

However, if it is your desire to whip the ponies and cause trouble around town then a highly modified car is the best option.
The absolute best of both worlds ?? at least four cars!

In my world, and investment car needs to be my fourth car. Four cars deep I can usually leave them alone.

It's really that simple...
If the car is for someone else, factory original and unrestored is without question the best.

If the car is not for someone else, and is instead for you, then a fire breathing modified car with big brakes, plush leather and ice cold air is best.

Rocky,
I actually quite like that Jensen!

Blaine, thanks for asking, and I’ll attempt a respectful answer as you state.

To be a little more scientific than emotional, here’s my attempt at “degreeing” this. IMO the two extremes and things in between could be listed like this:
1. Bone stock, as original as possible
2. Looking stock but modified for more modern electronics, better brakes, more power, better rubber etc
3. Built to look like a Pantera that is wasn’t from birth, mostly narrow to wide body
4. Custom body modifications, to try to improve on Tjaarda’s design
5. Made to look like another car(!), seen GT40 and R8 clones
6. All out, total custom, like the Corvette in Corvette Summer, “look what I can do”

My view:
1. Great to look at, but hard to live with. I had a 68 Camaro SS that was 99% orig, and the performance from those F70-14s was terrible. To sell it, I had to put modern wheels and tires on, what a difference
2. I’d put my Pantera in that category
3. Not for me. If you want a wide body, buy one. This waters down the rare models
4. Not for me. I’ve yet to see a body modification that I thought improved a Pantera’s look
5. Not for me. If you want a GT40, buy one.
6. Not for me. No further comment

So I like 1-2, not 3-6. I don’t consider myself a purist as some “accuse” me of, but I’m puzzled that 4-6 even exist. 3 is seen in most types of cars, people try to build/rebadge that plain jane into something it’s not. And that we’re even discussing on this forum cutting gutters off, I don’t think that happens in any other brand…

OK Blaine? I tried…

Mikael,
All good points. I will try to respond to your 3-6.

3. I would imagine that the majority of widebody converted cars were done so not because the owners wanted the status of having a group 4 or 5 car but because they liked the appearance. The problem with buying an original widebody car which would be the only solution to your requirement of not changing a narrowbody car is that the once previously affordable car is no longer so. Considerably more people can afford to buy a narrow car and put flares on it. Its not exactly reasonable to expect someone without the means to buy a factory original widebody to not make one on their own for considerably less monetary input. I flared my car because I loved the look and needed as much tire as I could stuff under it.

4. This my friend is extremely subjective. For every person who likes the original Tjaarda design there are at least an equal amount who would like to change the basic design to suit their taste. I completely agree that Tjaarda designed a beautiful car. I feel that the majority of the beauty stem from the basic lines and flow of the bodywork. I feel that general appearance can be changed considerably and still maintain the Pantera look that people love. What I am after is when I take my car out for a drive is that I dont want people to realize it was a car designed in the 70's. Another thing to consider is that some are making exterior modifications to improve performance. I will be tracking my car lots. The build I am in the process of at the moment is completely based around downforce. There will be things that definitely will not be period correct. I will however do my best to stay true to the original lines of the car.

5. Some clarification is needed here. I have still never seen the R8 clone you are referring to but I think I know the GT car. For the GT car I feel the point of the exercise was not making a Ford GT replica. The owner likely appreciated the design of the GT front and rear and felt it would suit a Pantera. I personally think the front looks nice and would benefit frontal aerodynamics. The rear however does not appeal to me. That being said, Im sure there are a ton of people out there that think it looks great. Appearance-wise it was a quality integration and care was obviously taken to make it appear clean.

6. Fair enough. I see no benefit in it either. Not my cup of tea. There are large groups that love that stuff though so obviously some percentage of the population find it appealing.

People will modify anything. No brand is immune. While you may not read about drip rail removal on ferrari forums I guarantee someone has done it. I all boils down to people wanting something special. Many are not content with the status quo. If people see a fox body mustang drag car they say "Oh look another fox body drag car." If people see blown Ferrari drag car they say "HOLY SHIT! Did you see that??"

Great topic:
I own a 1987 GT5-S, very original when I bought her 16 yrs ago. Its 30 years old now, a car that has seen its day as far as technology goes.
I have updated the car, leaving the body, interior intact, but now drives, performs like any modern super car of today. Some people might say that your crazy to change a GT5-S, but I don't believe the value will change at all , in fact I think it will increase in value.
It was touched on in the previous thread, new drivers want the original look with all the creature features that the current market offers, besides performance, handling etc.
Originality is great, went through that stage with all the mid 60's corvettes i've owned, but guess what, they are great to look at but not so much fun to drive any more.
This brings me to you have the original stock owner, and the owners who appreciate the heritage, but love to drive their cars every chance they can.
My .02

quote:

This my friend is extremely subjective

Oh I know.

Two things I'd like to comment.
-How wide are your rear tires? Mine are 335s, neatly tucked inside a narrow body, and not hitting the fenders. I doubt there's many people on this forum that have the driving skills (and guts) so that they need more than 335 width tires?
-"Its not exactly reasonable to expect someone without the means to buy a factory original widebody to not make one on their own for considerably less monetary input." Well, it's not popular to say is this day and age, but sometimes you can't get everything you want! If a certain Pantera model is out of your monetary range (more and more are these days), then you can't have it. "That's not fair, I'll just build me one". Well, not for me

Again, just $0.02

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraTurbo:


The first:
"If you wanted X car why didnt you buy X car?"

Second:
"Why would you go and destroy the value of the car?"

Third:
"Your modified car is bringing down the value of my original car."

Modified Pantera's are widely accepted if not more accepted then say Boss Mustangs or other cars for a couple reasons. First, numbers matching, options listed details means next to nothing with a Pantera where it means more with other cars. Second they were often modified from the begining to fix things or to further a design which was begging to be added on or built from. It many ways it was neat stock but also neat when built on. The question on value is really are the mods good or bad (taste). A beautifully well modded Pantera can often bring more then a stock Pantera of equal. There is a place for both.

As far as changing a car after it was purchased, what fun is buying someone elses dream? I may as well go out and buy a Corvette. GM has more design work in the cup holder than any car has from the 70's in it's entirety. I have no interest in buying a car someone else customized. I am interested in customizing things with my creative nature and vision. If you keep the car forever what does value have to do with any of it.

How could a well modified Pantera possibly bring down the price of a stock Pantera unless people find more value in the modified versions. In reality one more modified is one less stock which only drives up the stock prices. The demand for both has only gone up. They only made a limited number of these cars and the more these cars are seen and played with the more others want one stock or not.

In the end the mathematics of supply and demand rule the price. At the end of the day if you got what you want to play with, what else matters.

From a guy who put $35K in a $10k MGB; but who drives it all the time and will not sell it till I'm bed ridden.

Mikael,
My rear tires are 335's as well however as stated I prefer the flared look. As for using that much tire I can assure you they were used to their fullest extent. New tires will be a 345 and will also get used to their fullest. Can a 335 fit under a stock body? I guess so but that only accomplished half my goal. As for people not getting what they want, people will do whatever they can to achieve their dreams and I feel none of us have the right to tell them they cant do so.

Hahaha! Great thread Blaine!

I'd put myself solidly in Mikael's #2 category - Looking stock but modified for more modern electronics, better brakes, more power, better rubber, etc. - improving on the performance and reliability with some simple modern upgrades such as electronic ignition, modern tires, better brakes, new shocks, Pantera Electronics gizmos, etc. They just make the car enjoyable, and more of what it was, a fantastic state of the art car for it's day.

When I was looking for my car 14 years ago I had a hard time finding an "unmolested" mostly original car. Many had over the top engines and or questionable "upgrades" (modifications), and I wasn't willing to pay a premium for such modifications, only to have to spend more to undo them.

But, for years I've wanted another Pantera to modify into a modern supercar of sorts, maintaining a mostly original appearance, save for Gr-4 flares and a modern engine (but no wannabe Countach wings!), but my wife said I needed to hit a certain income level first! I've hit that level (and I think she forgot about our implicit deal) but now she constantly complains we have too many cars and she wants to "downsize and simplify our lives," which means sell one or more cars, as well as any of my other stuff she doesn't value.

But alas, the cars have become too expensive to fulfill my vision of a modern reincarnation of a Pantera.

As for modified cars watering down values, I think it's just the opposite! Those desiring a pristine original Pantera, or a car that's predominately stock with only limited safety/performance upgrades, will have fewer to select from, so if demand is constant (but it appears to be increasing) and the supply is fixed or diminishing, prices will (continue to) rise.

Then again, when I look at all the high dollar extreme restomods and custom builds of Mustang's, Camaros and just about any other cool old car these days I just might have to say the demand for "tastefully" modified cars may also be increasing. It seems a LOT of folks want modern performance and reliability in a classic package.

These are interesting times!

My 2-cents!

quote:

to further a design which was begging to be added on or built from.

That's what I call an interesting comment. Begging for being cut with a grinder?
I don't think so. I think the only reason that Panteras are so modified is that compared to other supercars they're cheap and simple. If you really want a challenge, buy a Ferrari 308, modify it including double horsepower, in a way that the Ferrari community would applaud. Now, that's a challenge!

Panteras are a bit like E-Types. Mistreated because you can get away it. In the 70s on shows like Colombo and several movies, the expensive sportscar being smashed was always an E-Type. Why? Cheap and plentiful. Or maybe it begged to be smashed? In the movie Herbie, it was even worse. Herbie got upset at a red Ferrari, and starts smashing it by driving into it. Next scene is a smashed red sportscar. You guessed it it's an E-Type, but smashed so most people couldn't see the difference.

About value, something I didn't think about in my 6 categories, I don't think it matters much. But if I owned a genuine wide body, I would be a little annoyed at all the clones. And don't get me wrong, many of the clones are beautiful. Phillipe's silver and black, Blaine's as well.

quote:

Can a 335 fit under a stock body?

Indeed, I think 345s could maybe as well.

Now here's the archetype of the perfect modified Pantera! And it can be yours too!
http://www.automobile.fr/Voitu...ipcar/240514893.html

Unfortunately, what's been seen cannot be unseen!

quote:

I think 345s could maybe as well.

Yes, I had 345's on my narrow body for years!

quote:

Originally posted by No Quarter:

quote:

to further a design which was begging to be added on or built from.

That's what I call an interesting comment. Begging for being cut with a grinder?
I don't think so. I think the only reason that Panteras are so modified is that compared to other supercars they're cheap and simple. If you really want a challenge, buy a Ferrari 308, modify it including double horsepower, in a way that the Ferrari community would applaud. Now, that's a challenge!

Panteras are a bit like E-Types. Mistreated because you can get away it. In the 70s on shows like Colombo and several movies, the expensive sportscar being smashed was always an E-Type. Why? Cheap and plentiful. Or maybe it begged to be smashed? In the movie Herbie, it was even worse. Herbie got upset at a red Ferrari, and starts smashing it by driving into it. Next scene is a smashed red sportscar. You guessed it it's an E-Type, but smashed so most people couldn't see the difference.

About value, something I didn't think about in my 6 categories, I don't think it matters much. But if I owned a genuine wide body, I would be a little annoyed at all the clones. And don't get me wrong, many of the clones are beautiful. Phillipe's silver and black, Blaine's as well.

Oh I beg to differ. The Pantera is in many ways like a clean slate. Many people have added and built from this clean slate to many cars which are breathtaking. Consider the design time of the Pantera was extremely short. It is a fantastic base to launch from. Many Many excellent modified elegant examples; and some turds too!

How many Hall Pantera conversions are there? And they were doing that years ago!

When people see a stock Pantera they kind of got an idea of the age it comes from although the base is still a timeless design.

When you see a well modified Pantera, it's not like a modified 67 Mustang, a 55 Chevy, people come up to it and say What is it? Wow, Is it a new car?

And, by comparison, a Ferrari 308 looks more like a finished design. It would be hard to add to it in a desirable way. It is the core difference between the Pantera.

BTW I think the values of a Pantera are creeping above that of a 308 and have long surpassed the E-type.

BTW, Ferrari said the E-Type was the most elegant car design he had ever seen. It also does not lend well to mods.

It doesn't matter what you do, people will always have negative comments.
A guy has 15 cars…"why does he need 15 cars?" And the commenter has 3 cars, so that is just the perfect amount.
A guy has an 8000' house…"he doesn't need a house that big" And the commenter lives in a 2500' house, which is the perfect size.
A guy has a certain size of tire…" why do you need bigger than that?" And the commenter has the perfect size…
A guy buys a 50' boat….
I see it everywhere now. It was quite rare on this forum years ago, but now its more common.
Will ( sociopath)

But Will, why did you take that beautiful yellow stock-looking Pantera and RUIN it by adding the fake flares, big wheels, polished engine and 180° headers? Oh yeah, because you're a sociopath... Or, was it because that's the kind of car you WANTED to drive? Regardless of authenticity, it is one of the nicest Panteras I’ve seen anywhere.

For what my .016$ is worth, this is a good conversation to have, as long as everyone understands that nobody's opinion is "true" except in their own case, and from their own viewpoint. Many good points are being raised here.

I don't mind people modifying their cars at all, but to me, some look fantastic (Will's car jumps to mind) and some look horrendous (that white thing Garth posted is an eyesore — to me). I always respect the rights of people to do as they wish as long as it doesn't harm others. Does someone modifying a Pantera harm someone who doesn't alter theirs? I don't really think so, but if it does, the damage was already done years ago — likely long before any of us bought our cars at a discount because of them. One could argue that “ugly” harms others, but we are all free to look away. And in some cases, “ugly” just makes “pretty” look beautiful.

I completely understand those who feel a need to preserve an original and un-touched example of an important artifact, and indeed I appreciate them doing that. However I don't think people should be so vocal and critical of someone for making a few more changes than they did. Any deviation from "factory original" is a change. Period. Bolt-on or not. Either you wish to honor the exact car that was produced, or you want to perfect and improve it in some greater or lesser way. For some that is 2% deviation, and for some that is 98%. For most of us, it is somewhere in between. Unless I drive a car that is 100% original, I think it would be wrong for me to be too critical of one that is modified a few % more than mine is.

I had my own struggle with this debate, having a largely original Pantera (well, when I bought it anyway). It looked OK, but not "great" and I proceeded to rebuild and lower the suspension, alter the cooling system, add wider wheels (10" Campys), a few Hall components (air cleaner, valve covers etc.) and “improve” it. I don’t care about the investment value at all. I do care that what I see when I walk into my garage makes me happy and looks exactly the way I want it to. Because I, like many others, had the “itch” to do some modifying of my own, I acquired a second Pantera. It was already quite modified from original (no body mods) and I am continuing to have fun creating my own “super-Pantera” with it. I NEVER hear a negative word from a passing stranger when they encounter the car. It looks fantastic and makes people smile — especially me. And it gives me a tangible way to explore my own skills and design/mechanical abilities, which is much more fun than preserving the original factory applied dirt on a “perfect” original car.

I also own a GT40 replica. The highest form of vehicular heresy is to drive a “fake”, or even have one in your “collection”. But I am not a collector. I am a car guy, and I like having and driving (yeah, my friends are laughing at that) cool beautiful cars. If I was fortunate enough to own an original GT40 it would be in my living room surrounded by lights. And at $5M+, probably rarely ever see the road. I can happily drive my fake anywhere, park anywhere and even ram it into other vehicles (sorry Denis) without being too concerned about damaging it. Same goes for people with Group4 Pantera clones vs. original cars.

So, to Blaine: Thanks for starting this interesting thread. Others: I enjoy and value your perspectives. Mikael: I’m a 1, 2, 3, maybe a 4, for myself, but am really glad that 5 and 6 exist because if everyone was a 1 or 2, we would be just like all those red Ferraris at Concorso — Boring.

Mark

How about early Pantera's converted to later style GT5-GT5-S , Gr.4 ?


Simon

quote:

Originally posted by Simon:
How about early Pantera's converted to later style GT5-GT5-S , Gr.4 ?


Simon

That's more my speed, if the build is done right. But these things can be tricky, where I have seen crooked or other oddball fender application...eek! For instance on the GT5S model, I love the style of that car; however two things for me: (1) the stock 351 is a bit wimpy in today's standards of performance, and (2) in CA if you upgrade your engine in any manner you better have some way of getting around the strict smog checks to register the car in respect to both visual inspection and tailpipe emission (these days that ain't so easy like in the past). The GT5S has such an exotic look, that just looking at it in my opinion almost demands at least 600HP. Same happened to me when I was considering an Aston Martin Vantage; beautiful car, but when I drove it all I thought about was "where's the beef?". Performance didn't match the exotic appearance; so I bought a couple V12 Mercedes instead. Maybe not as exotic looking, but about double the HP & torque.

So for me I like the performance to match the appearance, and of course visually I am a bling bling engine bay guy anyway, far from stock. But still, I respect an untouched original GT5S time capsule.

These very same discussions go on in other forums too, like the Mercedes forums & doing mods such as ECU performance, wheel upgrades, fender flares etc. Stock is nice, but appearance & performance upgrades go to another level. I know this isn't an MBZ forum, but for instance below is my red MBZ from stock to bigger wheels & lowering kit, and maybe eventually to wide body as shown on the black and green car (ha ha I think I need green, as it looks pretty stock, no?):

19 Inch AMG wheels before changing to 20"/21" ADV05 DC by JanDaMan, on Flickr

ADV05 Wheels by TAG by JanDaMan, on Flickr

Prior Design by JanDaMan, on Flickr

Prior Design by JanDaMan, on Flickr

I resist getting into these discussions because of my well-known mods to Judy's '72-1/2 L Pantera (92 mods so far!) All are reversible & I kept the stock parts. But in a family compromise, all but a few (Revson front spoiler, Gr-4 tail lights & 10" Campys ) are hidden under the as-delivered body. At 2675 lbs ready to drive & with 350 bhp, it runs faster than I care to drive today & handles far better than it ever did 'stock'. Those are my important factors. Others have others, as you say- J DeRyke.

DOES200,
Talking on GT5-S and 351 , you know that several GT5-S are original delivered from DT factory whit a Windsor 351 ?
a Windsor is low weight engine easy to stroke to 427Ci.
Simon

You know a Ford 400 stroked to 434 with 500hp, 534lbs of Tq, 434lbs Tq at 2000 rpm limited to 5500 rpm (for durability) makes a pretty sweet combo!!

quote:

Originally posted by Simon:
DOES200,
Talking on GT5-S and 351 , you know that several GT5-S are original delivered from DT factory whit a Windsor 351 ?
a Windsor is low weight engine easy to stroke to 427Ci.
Simon

Engine moders, exactly my point. Lets see a well built stroker (or engine swap) pass the stiff CA required visual inspection and emissions sniff smog test. So I was really talking about California in my comments. May be possible to do it with a hefty thumpin stroker with all the smog gismos still in tact, but I would think probably pretty rare. Anyone? For the pre 1975 smog required cars here in CA I would rather just dump in my 417 Fontana or 427 Fontana FI than deal with the smog fools of having those engines in a real GT5S. Those with real GT5S & hefty modified engines here in CA better know the judge real well in getting it out of impound or pulled from the CA crushing machine...part joke part not in that comment. However I had a 1985 Maserati Biturbo ready for the crusher for not passing smog with the CA regulators in several attempts but was able to sell it to a Florida dude, no smog requirements there.

Gorgeous Jan

the wheels and tires made a big difference.

quote:

Originally posted by George P:
Gorgeous Jan

the wheels and tires made a big difference.

Thanks, but a lot of people differ on that simple change too, big fancy wheels lowered car. Same with performance on these SL V12, stock 604 HP & 740 torque just isn't enough, as the simple must have ECU upgrade gives 670 HP and 850 torque. Point being enough is never enough when it comes to body and performance mods with almost any car, so a lot of people just gots to go the extra mile pressing the limits. Just the nature of some & not others; but in the end everyone loves what they have...

I will try to keep it short but here is my 2 cents. The early Panteras are 40 odd years old which is a long time for a car to last. If a car has made it this far in a unmolested or at least near to stock configuration don't you as an owner owe it to the next generation to pass it on without imparting too much damage or change? To pass on a piece of automotive history to the future in the best possible condition you can?

Now if a car has been previously modified then fine, start the grinders. Or if you have owned that car for 20 years and again it has been modified then fine, cut away. But as stock/near stock car owners we are merely custodians now and to destroy a piece of history to make changes for what you feel like now? Especially in ten years time you will probably look back at the changes like we do at old hair styles is insane.

If you want to modify then buy a modified and change it. But if it has made it this far in relative peace, try to keep it that way.

The biggest thing I notice is that the next generation doesn't WANT a stock 40 year old car. What was really awesome 40 years ago is not as much today. Everything I have seen points toward the next generation wanting widebody cars with big wheels/tires. Most don't even care about performance. Im guilt free. Mine was destroyed when I bought it.

quote:

I will try to keep it short but here is my 2 cents. The early Panteras are 40 odd years old which is a long time for a car to last. If a car has made it this far in a unmolested or at least near to stock configuration don't you as an owner owe it to the next generation to pass it on without imparting too much damage or change? To pass on a piece of automotive history to the future in the best possible condition you can?

Well said...

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:

Same with performance on these SL V12, stock 604 HP & 740 torque just isn't enough, as the simple must have ECU upgrade gives 670 HP and 850 torque.

I have been working on how one could shoehorn a Mercedes V12 into a Pantera.....

quote:

Originally posted by Joules:

quote:

Originally posted by DOES 200:

Same with performance on these SL V12, stock 604 HP & 740 torque just isn't enough, as the simple must have ECU upgrade gives 670 HP and 850 torque.

I have been working on how one could shoehorn a Mercedes V12 into a Pantera.....

Nice! Now that's "modified". These V12 Biturbo engines are built conservative for reliability too with big HP and torque from the factory, so they beg for additional performance mods. They are still very reliable with the simple ECU chip upgrade, but some even go with the Brabus upgrades to get about 900 HP & 1,000+ torque. Should be interesting in a Pantera, and I imagine sound unreal with the Pantera short pipes.