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Original and Modified (A gentleman's discussion)

panteraturbopanteraturboMember
I have noticed that quite a few of the disagreements on this forum stem from the rift between the "Original" and "Modified" car members. I have started this thread to provide a place for members to express their views on this matter. We all have our own opinions so please try to remain respectful of other viewpoints. Snarky comments will only serve to inflame the discussion and quickly get this thread locked. I will start by addressing some of the comments I have seen.

The first:
"If you wanted X car why didnt you buy X car?"
My answer to this may not speak for everyone but for me its about the lines of the car. My dad had 3 Panteras throughout my childhood. I always loved the lines of the car. I felt that they were way ahead of their time in styling. In 1998 I had the chance to get one myself. The X car that I wanted was a car that looked just like a Pantera and performed like a modern sportscar. While I loved the Pantera look the car was still a vehicle from the 70's. The car went through substantial modifications through the first 10 years and while still maintaining the Pantera look was far from original. I have begun modifications again that will even more drastically change the car in both appearance as well as performance. The bottom line though is that I still love the lines of the car and even though there will be enormous changes there will be no mistaking that it is a Pantera. Over 19 years later I love it just as much as I did at first and I have yet to grow bored of it. So, to answer the question, I bought the EXACT car I wanted.

Second:
"Why would you go and destroy the value of the car?"
First let me say that I am a builder. Legos got me through my early years. I simply CANNOT leave things alone. I have my dad to thank for those genes. My passion is in creativity. I don't do cookie cutter well. My wife always jokes with people that I tear my car apart every year. Lets just say that she may not be joking. If I wanted a car like everyone elses, I would buy a Honda. I am constantly looking for ways to improve on what the factory built. Technology has come a long way and if I can make my car keep up with the modern cars you can bet I will. When I bought my car not one single thought went toward resale. I could honestly care less. The only investments I own are my houses and whats in the bank. I have no intention of ever selling my car unless I can neither drive it nor work on it anymore.

Third:
"Your modified car is bringing down the value of my original car."
This is a new one that Doug brought up to me. I had honestly never even considered this. While I'm certain this will not change anyones decision to modify their cars it would be interesting to gather some data on this to see if there is any correlation. My opinion on this is that times are changing. In the business I am I have seen incredible amounts of original cars, modified cars, rat rods, you name it. The generation that is coming to the point of their lives that allows them to purchase cars for pleasure grew up in the World of Wheels and Hot Wheels years. I would even say we are starting to touch into the Fast and the Furious generation. I feel less people are looking for the flawless originals and more are looking for the wild, instant gratification car. If the value is dropping on original cars in my opinion its not due to people modifying their cars its due to less people being interested in originals. There has not been a car show that I have been to where the modified cars did not draw the bigger crowds.

As I said before, these are purely my opinions. Please feel free to express your own.
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rockyrockyMember
Funny, the EXACT SAME discussion just started up today over on the Jensen Forum because of this modified example....

Jensen Owners Club - Restore or Modernize

Mind you, the colors of the Jensens have always been quite more varied than our vehicles, but the bodywork and the mods to this are reminiscent of the Ring Brother's Pantera.

Interesting.

My $.02:

I prefer the classic lines. Bring the innards, performance and reliability up to modern car standards.

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does200does200Member
Haha, you got balls starting that thread, but should be good discussions. The "gentleman's discussion" adds a nice emphasis. I like both for what each is in itself, and probably shouldn't even be compared since both examples are so different. There is nothing like seeing a totally stock Pantera since they are a rarity time capsule, and there is also nothing like seeing an excellent modified Pantera too just to see the creativity involved which is usually to make it more exotic/super car looking and higher performing. Like this antique table we have in front of our couch, we could have left it alone "as is" with the patina, but damn it sure looks great all sanded down with a custom finish on it.

I still miss my basically stock orange Pantera for what it was "stock", but over time it got a bit plain looking to me and I just felt I needed more "oomph" in appearance and performance. I still love both though. When I see one at a show totally stock, I could stand there for hours just looking it over and thinking what people thought of that wild looking exotic back in the 1970s, whereas today it blends in with other exotics a bit more than way back then. Plus seeing a beautiful well built modified car at a show, can't help but look it all over for the craftsmanship, attention to detail, mirror paint job, etc and say Damn! All I can say though is if you want others respect for the car and to really make it stand out, then dump the money into it to make it a nice modified car. But some don't want to get close to $200K or so to build a real nice modified car, so we see all kinds of things out there. For instance we have all seen the standouts at car shows on hot rods that are done well, such as a $300K Nomad build for instance vs one that is just a run of the mill modified Nomad. Sure we all have limited dollars, but just saying that it often shows up in the builds too. But then the saying goes "well its my car", which is true too, but then don't expect everyone to gawk over it.

But not sure of the thought about the modifides bringing down the value of the originals. I thought it was more of the opposite, in that so many have been chopped into or otherwise modified that the true originals have increased in value just because of rarity. Like my antique table I messed with, now is less rare to a true collector in its new and improved state. But damn, it sure looks good!
Last edited by does200
P peterfenlonMember
Possibly value has much to do with modification.

Not so long ago the Pantera was a car that many people could afford to buy, prices were static for a long time, and the type of engine proved very good for power improvements.

Other cars of similar performance to the Pantera, the Ferrari, Maserati, and Lamborghini brigade, were not so easy to modify and were far more expensive.

Now Pantera prices are on the rise, only recently this question of originality has cropped up.

I think some folk myself included prefer a more or less standard Pantera perhaps with better seats and a handbrake mod, simply because there weren't too many made in the first place and another lost to the go faster and make it wider gods seems a pity.

But at the end of the day its your car, and your entitled to do what you will with it.

And good luck to you all.
plt-1plt-1Member
I have advised the younger guys that ask...
If you think you will be happy with an "investment car" that must be carefully maintained and preserved then there is a significant potential for an up side even in a modest five year plan.

However, if it is your desire to whip the ponies and cause trouble around town then a highly modified car is the best option.
The absolute best of both worlds ?? at least four cars!

In my world, and investment car needs to be my fourth car. Four cars deep I can usually leave them alone.

It's really that simple...
If the car is for someone else, factory original and unrestored is without question the best.

If the car is not for someone else, and is instead for you, then a fire breathing modified car with big brakes, plush leather and ice cold air is best.
noquarternoquarterMember
Blaine, thanks for asking, and I’ll attempt a respectful answer as you state.

To be a little more scientific than emotional, here’s my attempt at “degreeing” this. IMO the two extremes and things in between could be listed like this:
1. Bone stock, as original as possible
2. Looking stock but modified for more modern electronics, better brakes, more power, better rubber etc
3. Built to look like a Pantera that is wasn’t from birth, mostly narrow to wide body
4. Custom body modifications, to try to improve on Tjaarda’s design
5. Made to look like another car(!), seen GT40 and R8 clones
6. All out, total custom, like the Corvette in Corvette Summer, “look what I can do”

My view:
1. Great to look at, but hard to live with. I had a 68 Camaro SS that was 99% orig, and the performance from those F70-14s was terrible. To sell it, I had to put modern wheels and tires on, what a difference
2. I’d put my Pantera in that category
3. Not for me. If you want a wide body, buy one. This waters down the rare models
4. Not for me. I’ve yet to see a body modification that I thought improved a Pantera’s look
5. Not for me. If you want a GT40, buy one.
6. Not for me. No further comment

So I like 1-2, not 3-6. I don’t consider myself a purist as some “accuse” me of, but I’m puzzled that 4-6 even exist. 3 is seen in most types of cars, people try to build/rebadge that plain jane into something it’s not. And that we’re even discussing on this forum cutting gutters off, I don’t think that happens in any other brand…

OK Blaine? I tried…
panteraturbopanteraturboMember
Mikael,
All good points. I will try to respond to your 3-6.

3. I would imagine that the majority of widebody converted cars were done so not because the owners wanted the status of having a group 4 or 5 car but because they liked the appearance. The problem with buying an original widebody car which would be the only solution to your requirement of not changing a narrowbody car is that the once previously affordable car is no longer so. Considerably more people can afford to buy a narrow car and put flares on it. Its not exactly reasonable to expect someone without the means to buy a factory original widebody to not make one on their own for considerably less monetary input. I flared my car because I loved the look and needed as much tire as I could stuff under it.

4. This my friend is extremely subjective. For every person who likes the original Tjaarda design there are at least an equal amount who would like to change the basic design to suit their taste. I completely agree that Tjaarda designed a beautiful car. I feel that the majority of the beauty stem from the basic lines and flow of the bodywork. I feel that general appearance can be changed considerably and still maintain the Pantera look that people love. What I am after is when I take my car out for a drive is that I dont want people to realize it was a car designed in the 70's. Another thing to consider is that some are making exterior modifications to improve performance. I will be tracking my car lots. The build I am in the process of at the moment is completely based around downforce. There will be things that definitely will not be period correct. I will however do my best to stay true to the original lines of the car.

5. Some clarification is needed here. I have still never seen the R8 clone you are referring to but I think I know the GT car. For the GT car I feel the point of the exercise was not making a Ford GT replica. The owner likely appreciated the design of the GT front and rear and felt it would suit a Pantera. I personally think the front looks nice and would benefit frontal aerodynamics. The rear however does not appeal to me. That being said, Im sure there are a ton of people out there that think it looks great. Appearance-wise it was a quality integration and care was obviously taken to make it appear clean.

6. Fair enough. I see no benefit in it either. Not my cup of tea. There are large groups that love that stuff though so obviously some percentage of the population find it appealing.

People will modify anything. No brand is immune. While you may not read about drip rail removal on ferrari forums I guarantee someone has done it. I all boils down to people wanting something special. Many are not content with the status quo. If people see a fox body mustang drag car they say "Oh look another fox body drag car." If people see blown Ferrari drag car they say "HOLY SHIT! Did you see that??"

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wplwplMember
Great topic:
I own a 1987 GT5-S, very original when I bought her 16 yrs ago. Its 30 years old now, a car that has seen its day as far as technology goes.
I have updated the car, leaving the body, interior intact, but now drives, performs like any modern super car of today. Some people might say that your crazy to change a GT5-S, but I don't believe the value will change at all , in fact I think it will increase in value.
It was touched on in the previous thread, new drivers want the original look with all the creature features that the current market offers, besides performance, handling etc.
Originality is great, went through that stage with all the mid 60's corvettes i've owned, but guess what, they are great to look at but not so much fun to drive any more.
This brings me to you have the original stock owner, and the owners who appreciate the heritage, but love to drive their cars every chance they can.
My .02
noquarternoquarterMember
quote:
This my friend is extremely subjective

Oh I know. Smiler

Two things I'd like to comment.
-How wide are your rear tires? Mine are 335s, neatly tucked inside a narrow body, and not hitting the fenders. I doubt there's many people on this forum that have the driving skills (and guts) so that they need more than 335 width tires?
-"Its not exactly reasonable to expect someone without the means to buy a factory original widebody to not make one on their own for considerably less monetary input." Well, it's not popular to say is this day and age, but sometimes you can't get everything you want! Eeker If a certain Pantera model is out of your monetary range (more and more are these days), then you can't have it. "That's not fair, I'll just build me one". Well, not for me

Again, just $0.02
C comp2Member
quote:
Originally posted by PanteraTurbo:


The first:
"If you wanted X car why didnt you buy X car?"

Second:
"Why would you go and destroy the value of the car?"

Third:
"Your modified car is bringing down the value of my original car."



Modified Pantera's are widely accepted if not more accepted then say Boss Mustangs or other cars for a couple reasons. First, numbers matching, options listed details means next to nothing with a Pantera where it means more with other cars. Second they were often modified from the begining to fix things or to further a design which was begging to be added on or built from. It many ways it was neat stock but also neat when built on. The question on value is really are the mods good or bad (taste). A beautifully well modded Pantera can often bring more then a stock Pantera of equal. There is a place for both.

As far as changing a car after it was purchased, what fun is buying someone elses dream? I may as well go out and buy a Corvette. GM has more design work in the cup holder than any car has from the 70's in it's entirety. I have no interest in buying a car someone else customized. I am interested in customizing things with my creative nature and vision. If you keep the car forever what does value have to do with any of it.

How could a well modified Pantera possibly bring down the price of a stock Pantera unless people find more value in the modified versions. In reality one more modified is one less stock which only drives up the stock prices. The demand for both has only gone up. They only made a limited number of these cars and the more these cars are seen and played with the more others want one stock or not.

In the end the mathematics of supply and demand rule the price. At the end of the day if you got what you want to play with, what else matters.

From a guy who put $35K in a $10k MGB; but who drives it all the time and will not sell it till I'm bed ridden.
panteraturbopanteraturboMember
Mikael,
My rear tires are 335's as well however as stated I prefer the flared look. As for using that much tire I can assure you they were used to their fullest extent. New tires will be a 345 and will also get used to their fullest. Can a 335 fit under a stock body? I guess so but that only accomplished half my goal. As for people not getting what they want, people will do whatever they can to achieve their dreams and I feel none of us have the right to tell them they cant do so.
garth66garth66"When speed is the only thing that counts"
Hahaha! Great thread Blaine!

I'd put myself solidly in Mikael's #2 category - Looking stock but modified for more modern electronics, better brakes, more power, better rubber, etc. - improving on the performance and reliability with some simple modern upgrades such as electronic ignition, modern tires, better brakes, new shocks, Pantera Electronics gizmos, etc. They just make the car enjoyable, and more of what it was, a fantastic state of the art car for it's day.

When I was looking for my car 14 years ago I had a hard time finding an "unmolested" mostly original car. Many had over the top engines and or questionable "upgrades" (modifications), and I wasn't willing to pay a premium for such modifications, only to have to spend more to undo them.

But, for years I've wanted another Pantera to modify into a modern supercar of sorts, maintaining a mostly original appearance, save for Gr-4 flares and a modern engine (but no wannabe Countach wings!), but my wife said I needed to hit a certain income level first! I've hit that level (and I think she forgot about our implicit deal) but now she constantly complains we have too many cars and she wants to "downsize and simplify our lives," which means sell one or more cars, as well as any of my other stuff she doesn't value. Eeker

But alas, the cars have become too expensive to fulfill my vision of a modern reincarnation of a Pantera.

As for modified cars watering down values, I think it's just the opposite! Those desiring a pristine original Pantera, or a car that's predominately stock with only limited safety/performance upgrades, will have fewer to select from, so if demand is constant (but it appears to be increasing) and the supply is fixed or diminishing, prices will (continue to) rise.

Then again, when I look at all the high dollar extreme restomods and custom builds of Mustang's, Camaros and just about any other cool old car these days I just might have to say the demand for "tastefully" modified cars may also be increasing. It seems a LOT of folks want modern performance and reliability in a classic package.

These are interesting times!

My 2-cents!
noquarternoquarterMember
quote:
to further a design which was begging to be added on or built from.

That's what I call an interesting comment. Begging for being cut with a grinder?
I don't think so. I think the only reason that Panteras are so modified is that compared to other supercars they're cheap and simple. If you really want a challenge, buy a Ferrari 308, modify it including double horsepower, in a way that the Ferrari community would applaud. Now, that's a challenge! Wink

Panteras are a bit like E-Types. Mistreated because you can get away it. In the 70s on shows like Colombo and several movies, the expensive sportscar being smashed was always an E-Type. Why? Cheap and plentiful. Or maybe it begged to be smashed? In the movie Herbie, it was even worse. Herbie got upset at a red Ferrari, and starts smashing it by driving into it. Next scene is a smashed red sportscar. You guessed it it's an E-Type, but smashed so most people couldn't see the difference.

About value, something I didn't think about in my 6 categories, I don't think it matters much. But if I owned a genuine wide body, I would be a little annoyed at all the clones. And don't get me wrong, many of the clones are beautiful. Phillipe's silver and black, Blaine's as well.
C comp2Member
quote:
Originally posted by No Quarter:
quote:
to further a design which was begging to be added on or built from.

That's what I call an interesting comment. Begging for being cut with a grinder?
I don't think so. I think the only reason that Panteras are so modified is that compared to other supercars they're cheap and simple. If you really want a challenge, buy a Ferrari 308, modify it including double horsepower, in a way that the Ferrari community would applaud. Now, that's a challenge! Wink

Panteras are a bit like E-Types. Mistreated because you can get away it. In the 70s on shows like Colombo and several movies, the expensive sportscar being smashed was always an E-Type. Why? Cheap and plentiful. Or maybe it begged to be smashed? In the movie Herbie, it was even worse. Herbie got upset at a red Ferrari, and starts smashing it by driving into it. Next scene is a smashed red sportscar. You guessed it it's an E-Type, but smashed so most people couldn't see the difference.

About value, something I didn't think about in my 6 categories, I don't think it matters much. But if I owned a genuine wide body, I would be a little annoyed at all the clones. And don't get me wrong, many of the clones are beautiful. Phillipe's silver and black, Blaine's as well.



Oh I beg to differ. The Pantera is in many ways like a clean slate. Many people have added and built from this clean slate to many cars which are breathtaking. Consider the design time of the Pantera was extremely short. It is a fantastic base to launch from. Many Many excellent modified elegant examples; and some turds too!

How many Hall Pantera conversions are there? And they were doing that years ago!

When people see a stock Pantera they kind of got an idea of the age it comes from although the base is still a timeless design.

When you see a well modified Pantera, it's not like a modified 67 Mustang, a 55 Chevy, people come up to it and say What is it? Wow, Is it a new car?
C comp2Member
And, by comparison, a Ferrari 308 looks more like a finished design. It would be hard to add to it in a desirable way. It is the core difference between the Pantera.

BTW I think the values of a Pantera are creeping above that of a 308 and have long surpassed the E-type.

BTW, Ferrari said the E-Type was the most elegant car design he had ever seen. It also does not lend well to mods.
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