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33 replies

Overheating

msrmsr#5936
I purchased my 73, #5936 a little over a year ago and am just now figuring out the mods. Before I get to my overheating problem let me describe the engine setup. Most notably I have the Magnuson Dual Screw SC with a couple of Weber carbs, jacking the HP up to the mid 500's, I suspect. When this was installed in late 80's, I believe the cooling fans were modified. I have two Perma-kool Blower fans and a third sucker fan on the downstream side of the radiator. The Perma-kools run simultaneously and appear to run all the time. The third sucker fan runs off of temp, as best I can tell.
The balance of the cooling system is in original configuration, radiator (stock), piping, hoses, etc. I have a 16lb pressure cap, seems to be in good shape and holds pressure.
Now for the symptoms. I go for a 30 mile drive on a cool day, temp hovers right at 190 by the gauge and stays there. The next day i go for the same drive and it creeps up to the red line, 235-250F, but has not pegged or boiled over. this doesn't matter if i'm stop and go or if i'm cruising at highway speed, although at stop-and-go it does move a little higher.
Based on this thread, I'm thinking Air in the radiator and/or bad thermostat? Would much appreciate input on what steps to take in order to sort this out.
Thanks - Mike
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marlinjackmarlinjackThe Machinist #5723 AMARGOSA MACHINE 'Running on Empty- Middle of Nowhere'
...You can Bleed Most ALL of the air out of the Radiator just by 'Cracking' Open the Little Bleed Screw at the Top Corner. (Factory Rad) Open it and Bleed Out a Rush of Air, Until Only Coolant comes Out.
Sorry, You'll have to Dismantle all of the Induction in order to check for the Correct Skirted Robertshaw Thermostat, And see if the Brass Restrictor Plate IS Installed. Unless You have a Simpler Way to Access the Thermostat.

These 2 Parts have helped 100's of Cleveland Owners solve their Over-Heating problems, with Symptoms Exactly as Yours. Including Me!

Good-Luck with IT.
panterachrispanterachrisMember
yes on the petcock. Make sure all your fans are coming on @ 180.
check the connection of the water temp gauge and the connection to the motor. a stock thermostat is a set at 190 so that is not to hot, but 225 to 250 is, thermostats fail open normally. Go to your auto parts store and buy a point and shoot Lazar temp gauge, $35.00, this tool will allow you to instantly check the temp on your radiator, water tank, heads, blower, exhaust, etc.
At 225/250 your engine will throw off so much heat your will see it, and hear it, I think you may be getting a erroneous reading on your water temp gauge. One last question, do you have a timing control to retard timing on boost, or is their a set curved distributor.
msrmsr#5936
I have an MSD ignition system installed with a blaster coil, but i don't believe these affect the timing on boost. With the roots style supercharger i did not think that was an issue, as much as would be with a centrifugal. Not my strong suite for sure, so glad for any input there.
I need to make sure the 3rd fan is coming on at temp. I know the two pushers are for sure.
panterachrispanterachrisMember
http://www.tmart.com/BENETECH-...d=CjwKEAiArbrFBRDL4O Their so cheep and very accurate a must have tool. I got one at summit, use it all the time. I think it was Lance Nist who did those twin blower set ups in the 80's, I drove though death valley with a friend who had that set up and she had no problems, and it was 120 I felt like we were in sub Saharan Africa, hotter than the hinges of the gates to hell all the way. By the way your car looks like it has been heavily modified.
msrmsr#5936
I picked up an infrared temp gauge last night and will check the temp this weekend. Something has to have changed, the car has had these blowers on it for a long time and been driven so, somethings not working like it did. Bill Hebner owned this car, out there in CA for 40+ years. Don't know if you know him. He moved to TN, near me, and I got the chance to buy it from him. For sure the modifications to the car look extensive, at least under the hood, makes it very drivable. Everything else is pretty much stock. I just took the original campys off and put some PI Motorsport 17x11 and 17x8 wheels on. Couldn't find rubber for the stock 15s. I have to say i love the look and feel of the new shoes.
Last edited by msr
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Back in the early '90s (I think) HRM did a story on street blowers and the significance here is, the dual-Magnussen system only put out 6-8 psi in their test, so your heating problem may not be only from this 87-lb power-adder.

One sequence is, the 45-yr-old overflow system springs an air leak that does NOT leak water as its not always under pressure. Heat from running expands the coolant and the extra makes its way into the big overflow tank. When the engine cools down, instead of sucking the squeezed-out coolant back into the motor, it sucks air and the coolant stays in the tank. A couple of sessions like this and you're low on coolant with no external leaks. A second 'fail' involves the surge-tank pressure cap not sealing on the normally-rough Euro tank neck base (the one you can reach), which is slightly too long for U.S radiator caps. The usual fix for this is to take the small tank to a rad shop and have a U.S rad neck soldered on, with a new U.S cap. Your Pantera probably needs a thorough look-over by someone who's familiar with the beast's cooling system. Good luck- J Deryke
msrmsr#5936
Thanks guys. Took it out today to check fans, temperature, etc. Drove about 15 miles at about 50 mph, back roads with outside temp at about 75F. Temp gauge rose to about 195, then reversed course and settle in just above 190. Stayed there through some stop and go. Stopped to fill the gas tank, drove back the same route. stayed pegged at just above 190 the whole way back, until i stopped in my driveway to check the mail, then it immediately started to rise and headed straight for the edge of the red zone.

Checked the fans, all three were running. Hit it with the IR temp gauge with these results:
Block (backside) - 218F
Heads - 198F
Surge Tank - 180F
Radiator top - 185F

I do not see the gauge temp sensor at the surge tank, so it must be on the front of the block, hopefully near the Tstat. Here's what my surge tank looks like, i think the neck has been cut down already for a US cap??

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msrmsr#5936
One odd thing after my drive today. I attempted to release the air from the radiator petcock, and nothing came out. I mean not air, or radiator fluid, nothing came out. Until...I relieved the pressure by removing the cap from the Surge tank. Then radiator fluid came shooting out of the petcock.

It seemed odd to me, as I thought the whole system would be under pressure and opening the petcock would release the pressure?? Confusing. I guess i'm on the suction side of the pump and under negative pressure at the point of the petcock.
jfb05177jfb05177Member
I did assume you meant the actual radiator top core. the fact there was NO drop in temperature from the surge to the top of the radiator implied the lower core did not remove any heat.

was the engine running when you open the UPPER radiator petcock.

you might want to look into plumbing the coolant for constant venting
http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/...581009756#4581009756
Last edited by jfb05177
J jffrMember
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MSR:
One odd thing after my drive today. I attempted to release the air from the radiator petcock, and nothing came out. I mean not air, or radiator fluid, nothing came out. Until...I relieved the pressure by removing the cap from the Surge tank. Then radiator fluid came shooting out of the petcock.



This sounds like you have air in your cooling system. Try jacking the back of the car up as far you can then open the upper radiator pet cock. Take radiator cap off also. Make sure that you have a good full stream of coolant coming out of the pet cock before you close it, then add coolant to your surge tank as necessary.
zr1panterazr1panteraForum Sponsor - SACC Restorations
quote:
Originally posted by MSR:
Thanks guys. Took it out today to check fans, temperature, etc. Drove about 15 miles at about 50 mph, back roads with outside temp at about 75F. Temp gauge rose to about 195, then reversed course and settle in just above 190. Stayed there through some stop and go. Stopped to fill the gas tank, drove back the same route. stayed pegged at just above 190 the whole way back, until i stopped in my driveway to check the mail, then it immediately started to rise and headed straight for the edge of the red zone.

Checked the fans, all three were running. Hit it with the IR temp gauge with these results:
Block (backside) - 218F
Heads - 198F
Surge Tank - 180F
Radiator top - 185F

I do not see the gauge temp sensor at the surge tank, so it must be on the front of the block, hopefully near the Tstat. Here's what my surge tank looks like, i think the neck has been cut down already for a US cap??


Why are we continuing to troubleshoot this thing? If the comment above is true, THERE IS NOT AN OVERHEATING PROBLEM!. There is a gauge problem. It states above the gauge is in the red zone but the temps are great (as checked with the IR Gun). I hate to say it but the problem is not gone... It will be back. But not to worry, the car isn't overheating. Your gauge either has a grounding problem of a problem internally. One thing to keep in mind before spending time and money troubleshooting a perceived overheating problem... If it isn't boiling over AND the water level in the tank is normal, you are not overheating, no matter what the gauge says...
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
what the gauge says...


Keep in mind a stock Pantera temp gauge presents these issues:


A gauge that is Italian and uses a Ford temp sender?

Inaccurate from the start.
___________________________________

The gauge that reads 230 maximum on early cars, and 260 on later cars?

Which one is accurate? Is either, if they both use the Ford sender and the Italian gauge?
___________________________________

The gauge that Ford TSB article #61 shows how to install a shunting resistor in the sender feed wire to "correct" a high reading?

Inaccurate by design.
___________________________________


Only an aftermarket matched set of sender/gauge or a mechanical temp gauge style should be expected to deliver consistent and accurate readings. Of course, even the matched set can experience sender/gauge/wiring failure.

Any measuring of temp using the stock sender/gauge will only accurately show changes in the cooling system performance. And even that, again, may just be a problem in the sender/gauge/wiring, not the actual cooling system.


Larry
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
Philippe,

As you are new to this thread, I find myself wondering what, if any, problems you might be having with your cooling system?

I would venture to say that most Panteras are using the stock plumbing/piping/two-tank system but with upgraded sucker fans and radiator.

Yes, you can greatly modify the piping system to be "better" and wind up with only one tank.

Yes, you can run a smaller water pump pulley to "increase" flow.

There are a LOT of things you CAN do to the cooling system.

But does your Pantera have any current cooling problems, and if so, what are they?

Larry
panterachrispanterachrisMember
Philippe, You do not need to change the routing of the water in your car, just get the air out of the system and this thread has explained that The aluminum water pump, radiator and fans are all you need unless you are running in a race circuit. again with car cold, check the water level in the primary tank ( closest to the passenger seat, it should be full,leave the cap off and go to the radiator and open the petcock at the left upper corner of the radiator open and let any air out, or till you have a stream of water coming out. that's it.If you run the engine with the cap still off for a minute or two then re-open the petcock (engine running) that will totally get rid of any air in the system. one other thing take a piece if note book paper and with the fans running make sure the fans are turning in the right direction into the radiator, I have seen the fans pushing the wrong way more than once.
lf-tp2511lf-tp2511Member
quote:
check the water level in the primary tank ( closest to the passenger seat, it should be full


IMHO, Chris has inadvertently mis-stated what he was trying to convey.

The tank that is closest to the passenger seat, and furthest from the engine,is never meant to be completely full. It is the overflow tank, is not under system pressure, and is generally kept 1/3 to 1/2 full.

The tank closest to the engine, and furthest from the passenger seat, is under system pressure, has the pressure cap and is supposed to be full at all times.

Larry
G 72gts 2Member
quote:
Originally posted by pantera chris:
Philippe, You do not need to change the routing of the water in your car, just get the air out of the system and this thread has explained that The aluminum water pump, radiator and fans are all you need unless you are running in a race circuit. again with car cold, check the water level in the primary tank ( closest to the passenger seat, it should be full,leave the cap off and go to the radiator and open the petcock at the left upper corner of the radiator open and let any air out, or till you have a stream of water coming out. that's it.If you run the engine with the cap still off for a minute or two then re-open the petcock (engine running) that will totally get rid of any air in the system. one other thing take a piece if note book paper and with the fans running make sure the fans are turning in the right direction into the radiator, I have seen the fans pushing the wrong way more than once.


Hello Chris
The car is supposed to be raced on tracks....
Target is 450HP ...
Thanks

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