rear hatch and lift struts don't get along

I had a problem with my rear decklid and replacement struts as well.

When I installed them after a couple of opening and closings, it was very clear that the hinge point on the deck had risen a lot.

When I examined the hinge I had found that the hinge flange had pulled loose from the decklid.

After a call to Gary Hall (this was awhile ago), he said thatthe hinge needed to welded to the decklid.

It was my decision to use brass, i.e. braze it, rather then weld it. I reasoned that less heat would be necessary and thus less warpage.

Maybe so. The deck warped anyway. Also this was just after the car was painted so the deck needed to be straitened and then repained.

The plus is that I can use the aftermarket struts without additional damage.

The negative was that someone should have told me (Hall) that this was likely to happen on all Panteras.

Incidentally, there is no guaranty that after the original struts are rebuilt that you won't have the same problem. Just because they are original casings doesn't mean that they will have the original pressure charge OR that even the original pressure charge won't pull the hinge loose from the decklid.

Bill the Cat,

That's an awesome picture!

Michael

Funny this issue comes up. I have been trying for months to find out from vendors and anyone else what the correct strut pressure should be on the decklid struts. I feel the correct pressure should be just enough so that when you open the decklid, "you" have to raise the lid upward and the struts just provide "assistance" and then hold the lid open at the top. The DeTomaso 18126A sold by many vendors are just too strong in my opinion. Just bought some of them a while back for my black non wing car, and there is so much pressure that the hood almost flies out of my hands after opening it. In other words, I have to provide a good amount of downward pressure when opening the hood...crazy huh? There really should be some more discussion or an article on this regarding correct pressure. It seems that we find correct strut pressure from trial and error...bend the hood/break the hinge, hummm that pressure is too strong, repair the hood and shoot the dice again and try using some less pressure shocks to see if the hood bends again.

I hear another part of the car that bends with too strong shocks is where the hinge is connected to the car (not the decklid). So, for your odd corner fitting, maybe see if that hinge area is bent under the roof area.

Also, another thing to watch out for with the too strong shocks, is that they could lift your hood beyond where it should go (especially if your hinge flexes), forcing the decklid lip into the hood of the car...try repairing that one for small change.

Hearing these horror stores, I may end up just taking mine off and using a stick to prop it open...should look nice at car shows, especially when the Ferrari boys pass by.

I've got a bad feeling that the pressure is not variable, just the size of the strut is. The bad feeling is that if this is true then I suspect this then vendors know this.

If that is so then they just don't care that you wreck your deck. They just care that they made their ten bucks on selling you a set.

It may just be that the strut that was used originally was the only one available back then.
Perhaps it was made specifically for Detomaso? Does anyone know for sure?

In any event, I think that all the vendors that sell replacement struts have some explaining to do. It has to be more then being the only one with the part. There are some trust issues here.
It is called credabilaty.

Try this link. Ask for Stephen Fenner. He tried to rebuild my OEM's, but only one held pressure.The pair he built me holds the lid where ever I place it. Quality work, fairly priced. If you want to try to rebuild your originals make sure you get the information from Stephen on the proper paper work for shipping because he is located in Canada.
http://www.lstechnologies.ca/
John

These in the link below are the Detomaso 18126A that I was referring to that sure seem way too strong to me. If you get them, be prepared to hold onto your decklid pretty tight when opening or it will fly open.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DETOMASO-PANTERA-Deck-Li...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

...when is somebody going to design and build a set of Decklid 'Cylinders' with a 'Schrader Valve', so the Owner can fill it with whatever pressure they desire?? Hard/soft, with or without a wing. I guess I'll have to do That also...

quote:

Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
...when is somebody going to design and build a set of Decklid 'Cylinders' with a 'Schrader Valve', so the Owner can fill it with whatever pressure they desire?? Hard/soft, with or without a wing. I guess I'll have to do That also...

Can you modify the original shocks for a Schrader valve?

quote:

Originally posted by MARLIN JACK:
I guess I'll have to do That also...

Funny..

I'll buy a set once you find time to make them. Polished aluminum please

I took off one of the shocks today, and just one of the 18126A still holds up the hood all by itself. These things sure are strong. Since the Detomaso 18126A are "Detomaso", I wonder if "the factory" would repair your hood or broken hinge weld due to shocks being too strong

Anyone know of good after market shocks (with the proper strength?).

I acknowledge the possibilaty thatmy deck and my deck hinges could have been defective.
However, I just had the right rear tire off and discovered that the bottom mount of the strut is hanging by a thread. For all intents and purposes the strut tore the bottom mounting bracket off the car as well.

If you tell me that these are factory strut strength then it isn't the vendors fault. These must be my personal problems and I thank everyone for being polite and not telling me to go screw off.

Anyone know of good after market shocks (with the proper strength?) rather than the DeTomaso 18126A? Maybe those are correct, but I hate to take the chance, hanging on for life as I pop open the hood. I would hate to think what would happen if the hood latch failed and the hood took off upward on its own

The message below was written by Larry (Fresnofinches) from the forum. I contacted him last week to inquire if he had any problems with the shocks. Larry said "Well, I've had them on now for a full year and a half. HOT Fresno summers and cool Winters. They have not warped - torn loose - or otherwise harmed the hinges or deck lid panel. They are still firm and solid and do the job just fine.

I just started to have problems with my OEM shocks. It is coincidence that I found this thread. Well, I hope it is helpful. Below is part of what Larry posted about 1-1/2 yrs. ago.

"Probably not strong enough for a winged lid. No information on
strength (pounds) of force.

NAPA part # BK 8195207 Compressed length of 10.34", extended length of
16.77".

Note the NAPA catalog image shows this to have different fittings at
each end, but this is incorrect. Both ends have the correct flat plate
with a hole needed for our application.

Total cost for two - $40.36"

On decklid shocks, its pretty simple to figure out what shocks you have. You need a press and bathroom scales, and a small piece of steel plate so the scale base doesn't bend. You set the parts up, zero your scale, measure the length, then compress the shock exactly 1/2 inch. Read the scale's weight & multiply by 2 to get the shock strength in lbs/in. FWIW, most vendors will not sell a shock thats stronger than 110 lbs, which is for winged cars only. Even this strength will occasionally bend a decklid, a roof section or break hinge pins. For what shocks you might need, call around to various vendors and see whats recommended in terms of strength. Winged cars are at the extreme edge of what's possible to hold open. PPC-Reno sells a 6" long piece of metal or plastic tube with a slot down the side, as a prop. This snaps around the left side shock rod while you hold the lid open with one hand, and more elegantly holds winged decks open than using a mop handle. I've seen your winged car, Does-200; you need one of these $2 props! It also stores handily in the door pocket.
Adding a Schrader valve to old shocks might be tricky: the body is thin metal so there are practically no threads possible. The thing is like any other shock- I think it has some oil inside, so welding a boss on is un-advised; such things are called bombs! And once you're somehow done, you'll likely find that the rod seal leaks and is not removeable or replaceable, which is why the OEM pressure went away to begin with. If someone manages to do this anyway, I suggest keeping the pressure below 110 psi or risk bending some really expensive metal.

Thanks Bossman. I put the Detomaso 18126A back on my black Ultra Hall since I didn't want to mess with it at this time (I messed up my back real bad acting 20 when 50+). Anyone ever measured the actual pressure of these 18126A as sold by most vendors, other than my opinion of "too damn strong"? Maybe the pressure is correct but my opinion wrong, since I don't see how the factory would have something too strong.

Forgot to mention- all the stock decklid shocks I ever saw-even on GT5-s's, are about 1-1/8" OD and have rubber boots on them. If the shocks you have are about 5/8" OD, with no boots, they are aftermarket. And with aftermarket deck-shocks, there are two possible upper ends- which screw on/off so they're replaceable if you get the wrong type. Its a good idea to mount any deck- shocks upside-down if possible. Water thrown up by driving in the rain collects on the rod and runs inside the rubber boots, with stock shocks mounted upright. This adds rust to the poor shock seal's problems. There's a drain hole in each boot, but the contour of the shock top is such that it doesn't drain dry.

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Forgot to mention- all the stock decklid shocks I ever saw-even on GT5-s's, are about 1-1/8" OD and have rubber boots on them. If the shocks you have are about 5/8" OD, with no boots, they are aftermarket. And with aftermarket deck-shocks, there are two possible upper ends- which screw on/off so they're replaceable if you get the wrong type. Its a good idea to mount any deck- shocks upside-down if possible. Water thrown up by driving in the rain collects on the rod and runs inside the rubber boots, with stock shocks mounted upright. This adds rust to the poor shock seal's problems. There's a drain hole in each boot, but the contour of the shock top is such that it doesn't drain dry.

Thanks. The ones I bought are sold at almost all vendors, same as these in the ebay link below. Factory or not, I don't know, but it is stamped Detomaso 18126A and pressure still unknown by anyone. Some day I may get around to trashing them and just experimenting with some aftermarket from the street or settling with broom stick instead. My Group 4 has BOGE K437G which are a little stiff as well, but not quite as strong as the Detomaso, so I may try and hunt some of them down. Problem is the wife is building some massive shoulder muscles holding the hood up while I fiddle with the shocks.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/DETOMASO-PANTERA-Deck-Li...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

quote:

Originally posted by Bosswrench:
Forgot to mention- all the stock decklid shocks I ever saw-even on GT5-s's, are about 1-1/8" OD and have rubber boots on them. If the shocks you have are about 5/8" OD, with no boots, they are aftermarket. And with aftermarket deck-shocks, there are two possible upper ends- which screw on/off so they're replaceable if you get the wrong type. Its a good idea to mount any deck- shocks upside-down if possible. Water thrown up by driving in the rain collects on the rod and runs inside the rubber boots, with stock shocks mounted upright. This adds rust to the poor shock seal's problems. There's a drain hole in each boot, but the contour of the shock top is such that it doesn't drain dry.

Hi Jack,
I think I've got the exception to your rule... my ´85 GT5-S came with the "skinny" struts from the factory. But then again that car was built sort of as a prototype so perhaps they used different parts.

Just now flipping through my photos from Euro-meetings I've got a couple of photos of other square-wheelhouse Panteras with the same brand and style as I have. I don't know if they are original on their cars, but since they are identical to mine I would suspect that they are.

Oh, and they don't last much longer than the thick ones - mine are overdue for replacement... I've getting tired of getting whacked on the head!

OK. You asked for the strut rates, you got it!

My original stock deck shocks measure 100 lbs each to move them and 90 lbs constant but the won't hold the deck open.

Actually that's not completly accurate. There is a weak shock that measures only 40 lbs so I know now why the deck won't stay up with them.

The replacement shocks from Hall measure exactly the same rate and are exactly the same length but the deck lid shoots up and it did that initial damage of tearing out the hinges and the one bottom bracket.

Can anyone explain this to me? Maybe I'm permanently brain damaged? I don't get it.

Does anyone want to sell me one good stock strut with 90 lbs of pressure in it? I like them better then the replacements. It doesn't have to be cosemtically beautifull, I can blast it and repaint it.

Does anyone know where I can get decals for the struts?

Contact Dave or Sandy Pratt
at SpaceCoast Plating


http://www.spacecoast-plating.com/home.html

they are fellow enthusiasts and own 2 Panteras. I bought mine from them 6 or 7 years ago and they have functioned perfectly ever since.


Gary #06984

snip....My original stock deck shocks measure 100 lbs each to move them and 90 lbs constant but the won't hold the deck open.

Actually that's not completly accurate. There is a weak shock that measures only 40 lbs so I know now why the deck won't stay up with them.

The replacement shocks from Hall measure exactly the same rate and are exactly the same length but the deck lid shoots up and it did that initial damage of tearing out the hinges and the one bottom bracket.

Can anyone explain this to me?

Sure, unless I misunderstood your post: 130 psi (additive from one good & one weak shock) won't quite do it and 180 (additive from two good shocks) are too much. Seems like you've found that you need a pair that add up to something in the middle.
I suggest getting a balanced pair of shocks since the highest pressure on the hinges, pins & roof occurs when the decklid is closed. A too-strong shock still exerts the same too-much pressure on its individual hinge system, even if the additive pressure from one stronger & one weaker shock might be just right to hold your lid open.

What I actually meant is that apparently the stock pressure is 90-100lbs each.

What you are suggesting could be an alternative.

The question is at what number is there eough pressure to hold the deck open? 130 lbs isn't it.

Anybody care to cbime in with this? Someone must have played with the shock rates?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
The question is at what number is there eough pressure to hold the deck open? [QUOTE]

Ditto...that's the million dollar question, and on top of that question, suggestions for the correct shocks that should be on there? Brands, part numbers? Or maybe quit my whining and get a Ferrari with standard parts?

I remeber being told that the replacement struts from Hall would be stong enough for a wing. I think that is what started me thinking that they were a little stronger then stock?

I was very surprized to see that the original strut was the same. That doesn't make sense.

I agree with you both Bosswrench ans Does200 but the answer of course lies somewhere less the 90lbs each.

I know there is someone out there that has the number but can I find him and weasle it out of him? That's another question.

Comon Does200, buying a Ferrari isn't going to help anything. Next you'll be waring Gucci loafers and a racing scarf and using Italian phrases. That can't be healthy?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
Comon Does200, buying a Ferrari isn't going to help anything. Next you'll be waring Gucci loafers and a racing scarf and using Italian phrases. That can't be healthy?

Ha, yes, the Ferrari thing was just a passing thought...I prefer my beat up sneakers to Gucci loafers any day.

SOBill Taylor was kind enough to provide me with this info below a while back from various info he has seen along the way from discussions and postings, but much of it unverified though. But what the hey, its better than nothing. I wonder what the lbs are for these?

Dodge Omni rear hatch struts from any autoparts store (with a filed down hardware store nylon spacer) fit a Pantera rear deck. ~$20

Replacement Rear Deck Struts: 81-88 BMW Model E28 Lift Support Pep Boys PN # 0-37495-95520 (made by Sachs) ~$18

Replacement Rear Deck Struts: Dodge Omni Pep Boys Sachs Lift-O-Mat Sachs PN # SG314003 ~$18

Replacement Rear Deck Struts: Dodge Omni NAPA PN # BK (Belkamp) 819-5207 ~$18 Length 16.8 inches

Pep Boys Pantera Deck Lid Gas Struts: SACHS North America SG314005 $20.90 each work with or without wings

Rear Deck Struts: NAPA part # BK 8195207 Compressed = 10.34", extended =16.77" Fits Pantera mountings $40.36/pair

http://www.indgassprings.com/pages/tech_gasHZ.html

http://www.arvinmeritor.com/products/car/gasspringsFAQs.asp

There has to be a cross reference some where that states the rates and lengths?

When I had a pair built the man said he put 95 pounds in each one. This is for an early 71' without a wing. The lid stays at any position I leave it.

quote:

Originally posted by JOHNEYE:
When I had a pair built the man said he put 95 pounds in each one. This is for an early 71' without a wing. The lid stays at any position I leave it.

Dang, looks like 95 lb without wing is the number. I wish mine operated like that, staying where it should, that is a nice pressure. Those Detomaso 18126A I have must be 130 lb or so...what the hey!