removing valvetrain question

Mike!.Mike!!..Mike!!!

Question?!...

Who or What is the BEST source to answer your question in regards to removing a JESEL rocker arm assembly???!!!

Here's a "hint" the answer begins with a "J" & ends with an "L"!...Mark

Yes you want the tension off the rocker(s) before trying to remove or install it

going through the firing order & doing each pair on TDC should achieve lash on both rockers at the same time

Please excuse the basic questions.

I'd rather ask a dumb question than try something and get it wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Please excuse the basic questions.

I'd rather ask a dumb question than try something and get it wrong.

It's NOT a matter of "I'd rather ask a dumb question", it's a matter of seeking the BEST source for the correct information.

You have a question about the correct way to remove Jesel rocker arms.

Thus the BEST source for that specific information would come from Jesel.

Whilst you are asking Jesel about correct removal procedure ( if you follow that approach), I would also inquire about "Maximum Open Valve Spring Rate Pressure" that Jesel rocker arm assemblies can dependably tolerate, as it readily appears now with your finding additional rocker arm failures,in combination with the previous owner "Rodger" also experiencing rocker arm/s failure, that your high valve spring rate pressure could be a contributing factor...Mark

I'll be inquiring about that for sure , as the rockers do seem to be the weak link here.


I'm hoping refurbishing or rebuilding them will not cost too much, and put the engine back into a condition that I can run it with confidence, because everything else on the engine seems solid.

Plugs read good, engine makes huge power, runs great, I just think the high spring pressure and high lift have caused the rocker life to be somewhat short, so I'm having them rebuilt/refurbished/replaced.

of the rockers that need repair, could they have been the source of the roller that siezed the oil pump and it was not a "missed" during previous failure

Yes I am sure the roller pin, or whatever it was that locked up my oil pump was from a previous rocker failure.

I was told about the rocker failure after I'd bought the car, the previous owner said "a rocker failed a while back, I thought I got all the pieces out, but I guess I missed some,,,sorry about that", so I KNOW the piece that caused my issue came from that previous failure.
I almost think there may have been more than one rocker failure. Here's a pic of the right bank, with 3 different colored rockers!

Are these even Jesel rockers?? They all say "TD" on them.

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Yes I am sure the roller pin, or whatever it was that locked up my oil pump was from a previous rocker failure.

I was told about the rocker failure after I'd bought the car, the previous owner said "a rocker failed a while back, I thought I got all the pieces out, but I guess I missed some,,,sorry about that", so I KNOW the piece that caused my issue came from that previous failure.
I almost think there may have been more than one rocker failure. Here's a pic of the right bank, with 3 different colored rockers!

Are these even Jesel rockers?? They all say "TD" on them.

http://www.tdmach.com/rockers.html

Just to quote a few things I was told when considering buying the car, at the test drive.

"Don't let anyone mess with those heads, they are special. Yates C3L. Those heads cost $7000 total". "I just adjusted them 3 weeks ago so you won't need to adjust the valves for a long time".

"The heads have Jesel Rockers, the rockers alone were $4000".

The ad for the car, posted on multiple sites says the car had Jesel Rockers.

ALL of my issues have been due to rocker failures, at least one of which I was not informed about that happened before I bought the car, and which caused huge problems for me immediately after buying the car.

HMMM, oh, sorry, just thinking to myself out loud there.

I'm sure things can easily get worse as well.

AAAAHHHH! I get it.

Its April fools day! lol

But really, those are DT rockers in my engine, not Jesels.

Have you pulled both valve covers to see if there as any more "Mix & Match" rockers?!

I'm "CONFUSED" ( rarely happens )

If Jesel rockers are rebuildable & Jesel warrants their products...WHY did Rodger ( previous owner) not have the failed Jesel rockers rebuilt/replaced instead of substituting T&D rockers for the failed Jesel rockers?!

I have up to this point chosen NOT to comment on the Previous owner's ( Rodger's) forthright fullness in disclosing the condition of the Pantera, that being stated...I would be PISSED to pull a valve cover/s only to have revealed two DIFFERENT types of rockers!!!...Mark

They are ALL T&D rockers!

The car doesn't have jesel rockers in it at all!

It was advertised as having Jesel rockers in it.
I was told face to face that it had Jesels in it (all $4000 worth supposedly).

What it has is a few different generations of T&D (hence the different colors) which does have me "not happy" at all.
I feel stupid now, calling Jesel about their failed rockers, and to expect a package for rebuilding, when it was T&D that I really needed to contact (which I have done-box is shipping out tomorrow).

I just don't know what to think any more. Basically, nothing he told me about the car is as it supposed to be.

It also tells me that probably more than one rocker exploded because there's a green one and a silver one in the bunch, so one might assume that TWO rockers were replaced at some point.

What is also evident is that the pan was never pulled and checked, because I had to cut the crossmember off and replace it with a bolt-on replacement to get the pan off. I doubt Roger removed the engine/transaxle to check the pan after these failures, and the 20 or so needle bearings I found in the pan kind of confirm this.

I've kept what I really want to say about the matter off the internet, but it's becoming quite evident that I was told many MANY things about the car that just were not true, things that might have had a had a bearing on my decision to buy the car. And now I've had nothing but problems, specifically with these things he "forgot" to disclose to me when he told me the engine was perfect, never had any issues, and should be a runner for a long time.

Yeah, I'm upset, but I have no recourse, so again, it is what it is. I just need to fix the car and run it.

Maybe rebuild or build a new engine for it for the future when I can afford it. I spent my life savings on the car, and now more fixing these issues, and now more again after finding more issues.

If anyone has any history on this engine, I'd love to hear anything I can find out about it.

I was told the motor was perfect, never had any issues, had 5 or 6 thousand miles on it, and should last a good lifetime (for a race engine, and yes, I do understand, race engine, race failures) but IMO I should have been informed about what he knew about the engine, at which point it could have gone in a number of directions.

Now I'm stuck again with a broken car, that's going to cost me a bunch more money to fix.

This isn't what I wanted to buy.

When I'm done, the car will be back to being reliable and solid, that is for sure.

I suggest you rename the car from "Snow White" to "Kelly Moore"...due to ALL the different rocker arm colors...

SORRY!!!...couldn't resist!...Mark

More like a bad acid trip to me.

I prefer T&D rockers, for what its worth. They are a helluva sturdy rocker arm as far as aftermarket rocker arms go. They shouldn't have ever failed unless there was something amiss, like push rods that were too short or too long, exhaust valves smacking pistons, etc.

In terms of valve adjustments, replacing broken rocker arms, etc ... who did the work? Roger or a mechanic? Is it possible he wasn't aware of what was under the valve covers?

Mike,

make sure that T&D sends you their stand height checking tool. It is a very simple tool for checking the stand height which is VERY important. I had an engine in my GT40 years ago with first Jesel and later T&D rockers . I had several issues which were created by the improper setup /pushrod length . The valve train was originally set up by someone who had a Ford Race Engine expert who had everything wrong.( I'll leave it up to you to figure out who that was but he is now manufacturing aftermarket Cleveland blocks) .
Once I set up the valve train geometry correctly, there were no further issues.
Also, for what you plan to use the car for, you may want to consider a change to a hydraulic roller camshaft. Street driving( especially idling) is VERY hard on roller needles if there is lash involved. A hydraulic roller has preload rather that lash so the roller is not pounding against the valve constantly . And if you do stay with the solid roller, consider a bushed lifter instead of the standard roller lifter.


Ron

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Have you pulled both valve covers to see if there as any more "Mix & Match" rockers?!

I'm "CONFUSED" ( rarely happens )

If Jesel rockers are rebuildable & Jesel warrants their products...WHY did Rodger ( previous owner) not have the failed Jesel rockers rebuilt/replaced instead of substituting T&D rockers for the failed Jesel rockers?!

I have up to this point chosen NOT to comment on the Previous owner's ( Rodger's) forthright fullness in disclosing the condition of the Pantera, that being stated...I would be PISSED to pull a valve cover/s only to have revealed two DIFFERENT types of rockers!!!...Mark

Irregardless of which rocker arm is in there, neither is cheap and neither is junk, you presume that the previous owner used NEW rockers and the fact is he might have bought the heads and rockers as a set used that came out of someone else's race engine. Maybe the camshaft setup as well.

The significant part of that is there would be NO WARANTY on any of those parts that I know of? Fits into the scenario if you ask me?

Actually the mixing of components here indicates some higher specialized knowledge, not someone guessing at things?

Take all the cheap shots at the seller you want. It takes an upper level of specific knowledge here to even realize what is going on.

This WAS NOT done by a simpleton NOVICE. Someone here just made some decisions that indicated they wanted a VERY specialized RACE engine to use limitedly on the street.

The misrepresentation was CAUSED BY a novice BUYER that believed he could use this engine like a normal street engine without almost daily maintenances AND CHOSE to hear only those positives? The seller was accentuation the positives.

This is not the first time this has even been brought to light on this FORUM. "You" can explain until you are blue in the face but the buyer simply does not know WTF you are talking about, then when they buy the product or the bill of goods, then all they do is bitch about how they got taken. Get over it. You the buyer caused this. NOT the seller.

Frankly I think you have found a very polite audience here to even listen to this crap?



The term "Jessel" has become to mean a "generic" shaft mounted roller bearing rocker arms and I suspect that was what was done here? If he said T&D, would you know WTF he was talking about? I'd bet no?



Racers selling off their previous set ups happens a lot since they often update last years components to this years hottest setup. I'd guess that's where the entire top end of the engine came from?

To put everything new in that engine is quite a few thousand dollar bills. It's possible but personally I highly doubt that.



IF you insist on a roller lifter camshaft you are MUCH MUCH better off with the hydraulic version but even then you are complicating the valve train to a power of an unknown factor.

What's wrong with going to a flat lifter camshaft? Do you just NEED this DAILY DRAMA in your life? WE DON'T!

Maybe you can start a cable reality show?

I have to respectfully disagree with you here Doug.

I'm here trying to get my engine fixed, one that I was told it was something it wasn't. Yes I'm upset, but I DO know WTF is going on, I'm new to Fords, but I'm fully capable of proper maintenance of a hotrod/race engine.

I do a lot of research, and sometimes ask stupid questions, but I'd rather be safe than sorry if I'm questioning something.

I'm just wanting to get the car to the car I thought I was buying, something I can drive for a reasonable amount of time, and with proper maintenance, last a while. Something I can use for a track day or an autocross here and there.

So far I've gotten a few street miles out of it and I'm dealing with major failures of parts.

In NO WAY have I, or Do I expect any warranty, I bought the car AS IS. It's my car, I bought it, and I'm trying to fix it. That's all.

I didn't take any of the things you mentioned into account about how the previous owner may have come across parts for the engine, (except that he told me he had spent over $24000 on parts alone to build it, so I assumed NEW). Didn't think I needed to. I was told it was all in good order.

I don't doubt for a second that the previous owner knew what he was doing either. He appeared to me to be an expert actually. It's one of the reasons I bought the car.

My only part in causing this was buying the car. I bought it as-is, and I'm fixing it. No warranty was ever implied or expected.

I'll keep my posts to the point about fixing the car.

Hey Doug .. please stop with the Dr. Phil .. tough love stuff. Mike is an adult who fully acknowledges his errors and doesn't need someone to rub his nose in it.

Careful Doug, or you're going to be sent to your own forum again!

quote:

Originally posted by Robbie:
Hey Doug .. please stop with the Dr. Phil .. tough love stuff. Mike is an adult who fully acknowledges his errors and doesn't need someone to rub his nose in it.

I'm not rubbing anyone's nose in anything.

The answers are simple. Fix what's broken. You don't need 5,000 posts on any subject.

This IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

It's really very simple.

Sorry Mrs. Snake. I wasn't picking on your boy.

quote:

Originally posted by garth66:
Careful Doug, or you're going to be sent to your own forum again!

It's nice in there. You should stop by?

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:

quote:

Originally posted by 1Rocketship:
Have you pulled both valve covers to see if there as any more "Mix & Match" rockers?!

I'm "CONFUSED" ( rarely happens )

If Jesel rockers are rebuildable & Jesel warrants their products...WHY did Rodger ( previous owner) not have the failed Jesel rockers rebuilt/replaced instead of substituting T&D rockers for the failed Jesel rockers?!

I have up to this point chosen NOT to comment on the Previous owner's ( Rodger's) forthright fullness in disclosing the condition of the Pantera, that being stated...I would be PISSED to pull a valve cover/s only to have revealed two DIFFERENT types of rockers!!!...Mark

Irregardless of which rocker arm is in there, neither is cheap and neither is junk, you presume that the previous owner used NEW rockers and the fact is he might have bought the heads and rockers as a set used that came out of someone else's race engine. Maybe the camshaft setup as well.

The significant part of that is there would be NO WARANTY on any of those parts that I know of? Fits into the scenario if you ask me?

Actually the mixing of components here indicates some higher specialized knowledge, not someone guessing at things?

Take all the cheap shots at the seller you want. It takes an upper level of specific knowledge here to even realize what is going on.

This WAS NOT done by a simpleton NOVICE. Someone here just made some decisions that indicated they wanted a VERY specialized RACE engine to use limitedly on the street.

The misrepresentation was CAUSED BY a novice BUYER that believed he could use this engine like a normal street engine without almost daily maintenances AND CHOSE to hear only those positives? The seller was accentuation the positives.

This is not the first time this has even been brought to light on this FORUM. "You" can explain until you are blue in the face but the buyer simply does not know WTF you are talking about, then when they buy the product or the bill of goods, then all they do is bitch about how they got taken. Get over it. You the buyer caused this. NOT the seller.

Frankly I think you have found a very polite audience here to even listen to this crap?



The term "Jessel" has become to mean a "generic" shaft mounted roller bearing rocker arms and I suspect that was what was done here? If he said T&D, would you know WTF he was talking about? I'd bet no?



Racers selling off their previous set ups happens a lot since they often update last years components to this years hottest setup. I'd guess that's where the entire top end of the engine came from?

To put everything new in that engine is quite a few thousand dollar bills. It's possible but personally I highly doubt that.



IF you insist on a roller lifter camshaft you are MUCH MUCH better off with the hydraulic version but even then you are complicating the valve train to a power of an unknown factor.

What's wrong with going to a flat lifter camshaft? Do you just NEED this DAILY DRAMA in your life? WE DON'T!

Maybe you can start a cable reality show?

Being NO stranger to controversy, I'll do a triple gainer off the high dive into the pool of second opinion.

Firstly...This statement of Dougs's is counter-intuitive to engine building in regards to specifically the valve train

"Actually the mixing of components here indicates some higher specialized knowledge, not someone guessing at things?"

A expertly assembled valve train is NOT a hodgepodge of mix & match roller rockers.

The fact is was a "Mix & Match" indicates to myself that something is WRONG with the valve train that has caused various rocker arms to fail over an extended period of time.

Secondly...Doug's statement...

"The term "Jessel" has become to mean a "generic" shaft mounted roller bearing rocker arms"

Could not be further from the truth. Jesel is very much a Brand specific, highly regarded, EXPENSIVE roller rocker & is NOT to be confused nor mentioned in the same breathe as a cheap Chinese knock-off brand. Ferrari & Yugos are both "cars", but never cross-referenced!

Doug cannot claim in one breathe that "Rodger" knew what he was doing when building a "Race Engine" then claim that Rodger used a "generic term" when Rodger mentioned the engine having Jesel roller rockers, ESPECIALLY considering Rodger's intimate experiences with rocker arm failure in this engine.


Thirdly...Doug's "Guess" of the building for the engine...

"Racers selling off their previous set ups happens a lot since they often update last years components to this years hottest setup. I'd guess that's where the entire top end of the engine came from?

To put everything new in that engine is quite a few thousand dollar bills. It's possible but personally I highly doubt that".


I've built countless engines & personally have NEVER installed USED racing components, as I'd rather have ALL NEW & spend a few thousand more...then have my USED race engine components built engine BLOW UP & have a lump of expensive mangled iron...

The old adage..." A penny saved a pound foolish" applies.


Doug is CORRECT & I AGREE that buying a car, ANY car with a "Highly Tuned" engine is fraught will a myriad of potential problems & is truly a caveat emptor situation.

Lastly...Doug's statement of Mike's possible career in T.V....

"Maybe you can start a cable reality show?"

Unless Mike has a sex tape, a bulbous Ass like Kim Kardashian & a father undergoing gender reassignment surgery, I'd say with a profound degree of both certainty & confidence! that the

"Mike the Snake Pantera Saga Story" reality show will Never leave the can...Mark

To every ying, there is a yang. Whichever one you are, I'm not.

quote:

Originally posted by PanteraDoug:
To every ying, there is a yang. Whichever one you are, I'm not.

Hello Doug; Since I've LONG been associated in various degrees of involvement with the Asian culture, it's NOT "ying & yang"...It's...Yin & Yang.

Being that The Chinese terms yīn 陰 or 阴 "shady side" and yáng 陽 or 阳 "sunny side" are the two choices, I feel it's symbolically apropo...That YOU are the "shady side" whilst I will bask in the purity cleansing light of the "Sunny Side".

Speaking of "Light"...I'm reminded of a verse from Ecclesiastes 2:13

"Then I saw that there is more gain in wisdom than in folly, as there is more gain in light than in darkness."

Also this passage from Thessalonians 351:C

"Lest not be tempted nor confused by the devil's derived temptation to label a Jesel rocker by any other name given then it's birthright"...Mark

"You are indeed of a singular wit Doctor".

Mike, the OP, has been very patient.

These public forums are one of the ways Pantera International fulfills our corporate mission to promote the sport and pastime of owning and driving "classic" De Tomaso automobiles. People's opinions of the club are based on what they observe here. A sizeable chunk of money is spent keeping these forums on-line. That money is not spent to make Pantera International look bad, insult people, or spread non-sense on the internet.

People come to the forums for assistance and information. Sometimes they come seeking a little camaraderie or encouragement. Finally people come seeking entertainment of the De Tomaso variety (a fix for their De Tomaso addiction). Its good to stay focused on these needs.

I appreciate everyone who contributes to the forums, and in good will tries to help other people. But why would anyone trying to help someone, turn around and in the next paragraph write something rude, or try to make someone else look bad? One "aw-heck" cancels a thousand "atta-boys". I also appreciate humor, but written humor is often mistaken for something else, it must be approached with caution on the internet and dispensed in small quantities. And rudeness is never humorous.

Please, no more off-topic debate and banter. This applies not only to this thread, but every thread. Please don't muck-up the forums. Address your replies to the OP and the topic at hand. Be polite and respectful. Staying on topic is one way to respect the OP.

Thank you

-G

This is by far the best forum I've participated in.

I appreciate the help I've received so far.

I sent off the entire set of rockers to T&D yesterday. Initially I was thinking of having them rebuilt, if possible.

Since these are "jesel" type, shaft style rockers, there's a steel mount that bolts to the heads that holds the shafts in place.

I may also just replace the T&D rockers with a new complete set, as I suspect many others will test bad or not be in perfect condition.

Are there any other options? Are these heads made specifically to run this type of shaft-style rocker, and machined accordingly?

I'm fine with replacing the T&D rockers ($78 each) but was wondering if there was any other way to go. Are the shaft-type rockers superior?

I'd assume if I wanted to switch to another brand (like Jesel) that I'd also need to buy the steel mounts that bolt to the heads as well?

I'm not sure about going to a stud mounted rocker arm with those heads?

You need to talk to an engine builder that is familiar with them.

In looking at the picture that you posted, it looks like the screw that retains the brackets for the rocker arms is located where the rocker arm stud normally is?

The stud would be a 7/16NC thread. If you take one of the seat brackets off you could confirm whether or not the head is machined to take studs instead.

The theory of the shaft supported rockers that you have is that they eliminated the rocker arm stud, stud girdles and replace them with a stronger assembly and one that is easy to service just one rocker arm or push rod without disassembling the stud girdle.

I think this change over is really important when running very high spring rates, which you are because of the solid roller lifters and cam profile.

So if the heads are machined for the studs, technically you can switch. Is it a good idea? Not unless you are going to change out the cam, lifters and springs to something milder.

If you are going to take those brackets off, snap a few pictures of the heads there and post them so we can see what's going on there.

Thanks for the tips.

I didn't really know what I was buying when I bought the car.

First off I'm new to Fords, built many a Porsche, VW, Chevy, and Mopar, but this is my first venture into high performance Fords.

I wasn't aware of the "specialness" of this engine. I went with what I was told about it by the seller, and the test drive (where it ran great).

SO, now I'm learning about Fords, and the many versions of heads made, and the different styles of rockers, and as you've suggested, I do not plan to change anything, just get it all back to where it was, but with new parts, and hopefully that will be the end of my rocker issues.

The rockers are 1.7 ratio.

Would dropping to 1.6 ratio help anything? Maybe help things last longer?

quote:

Originally posted by mike the snake:
Thanks for the tips.

I didn't really know what I was buying when I bought the car.

First off I'm new to Fords, built many a Porsche, VW, Chevy, and Mopar, but this is my first venture into high performance Fords.

I wasn't aware of the "specialness" of this engine. I went with what I was told about it by the seller, and the test drive (where it ran great).

SO, now I'm learning about Fords, and the many versions of heads made, and the different styles of rockers, and as you've suggested, I do not plan to change anything, just get it all back to where it was, but with new parts, and hopefully that will be the end of my rocker issues.

The rockers are 1.7 ratio.

Would dropping to 1.6 ratio help anything? Maybe help things last longer?

Few. Good question.

First off, as far as I know, cam specs for this engine are given with 1.73:1 rocker arm ratios.

Having said that, one of the ways of tuning an engine like this is with varying rocker arm ratios.

1.7: is a BB Chevy ratio. It is interchangeable here, just gives you less actual valve lift.

1.6. More times than not, that ratio goes on the exhaust valves. That goes hand and hand with tuning the exhaust system though. That entails primary tube diameter, valve diameter, primary length, collector diameter and length.

I would say to leave them alone. You will effect the tune too much to deal with at this point. If you are using stock type Euro GTS headers, you are already giving away power in the exhaust.

If you were running rocker arm studs it would be more important to reduce the ratio to reduce the stress on the studs.

Just sitting here re-reading what I just wrote and thinking about your engine, there is a lot of mechanical tuning done by selecting specific parts.

A lot of it seems to be aimed at taking some of the guts out of the camshaft. that's an indication that the builder understood it was too big to begin with.

The timing and lift of it aren't causing the dependability issues with the valvetrain, it is the valve spring rate. From memory, the spec sheet said 400 something. I think that was 485?

That's because of the lifters. Is it worth it?

Is what worth it?

I just want to get my engine back running reliably so I can enjoy my car.

So far I have maybe 4 hours of fun in the car, the rest has been hell.

I'd prefer to take the least expensive route, without cutting corners too much.

I know the engine was run hard for a long time in this configuration, it seems the engine likes to eat lifters though.

Hopefully new lifters and less punishment will give enough life to the motor to last until I can go through it or build a new engine.

here's the cam sheet. Looks like 429?

Mike,

Did you read my earlier post? There may be some useful information in there. Also ,changing to a conventional style stud mount rocker would be a horrible idea on a C3 head mostly because the intake ports are raised so much that the port roof is very thin and the threads can pull out. That is where the one piece rocker stands come in because they spread the load over all 8 bolts.
Something to think about.


Ron

I was just asking if there were alternatives.

I'm going back to what was in the car, as it's been run for it's life.

Not planning on making any new changes.

I'm hoping installing a new set of rockers, and not beating on the engine so hard, should hopefully give me some decent life from the motor with proper maintenance.

P.S., I DID go back and read your post, and I'll be sure to ask for that tool you suggested.

Again,

I'm new to Fords, and all their different head variants, so forgive me as I learn about what I've bought here.

D&T said they'd make a new set of rockers, they just needed the offset and ratio.

I sent the whole lot of rockers in, so they'll either rebuild what I have, or fix the bad ones and tell me to run the good ones, or I'll buy a new set.

I'll go with what they recommend.

In any case it llooks like it going to be 3-4 weeks.

I hesitate to suggest it, but would it be worth pulling this motor, getting a "street Cleveland", swapping all the critical (or unique parts required for fitment) over (water pump, oil pan, distributor, exhaust, etc.), and then go through your "race motor" off-line?

It seems like every time you get a little deeper into the motor it gets more serious....

Just find a way to drive, and enjoy the car, and address your full race motor at a more leisurely pace....

Just a suggestion... We do that on Land Cruisers a lot....

Rocky

PS. This will probably cost $5K too, and might take your car down for a while, but maybe.... if you don't have so much invested in the motor, you don't have to worry about it so much.

It is something I have considered.

Although it would be more of a job than just a swap, because the headers/exhaust would also need changing, as would the fuel line routing, although neither of those are too big of an issue.

It would also require eliminating my EFI Haltech system (maybe not a bad idea, it's pre-historic) as well.