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I would just like to thank everybody for their contribution on the 'colour dilema' topic. It's great to know that I bought a car within a great ownwer's club community.
On page 10 of my previous discussion, LPButton posted a picture of a blue Pantera with some interesting side scoops (hard to see them clearly). Any idea as to who produces them and how many different varities are there available on the market?

Thanks again.
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Precision Proformance also sell the same thing. www.precisionproformance.com

Kirk Evans installed these on his Amerisport GT5S Panteras and, as Forest said, are probably sold through Pantera East.

If you want the larger ones, check with PIM. This type actually bite into the airflow but their aesthetics can be questioned.

Bring a small mint to pay for whichever one you decide.
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Yes, you are absolutely correct. To 'scoop' or draw air you need to out at least 6" or more. But the advantages are not only that it now actualy becomes functional, it also changes the 'normal' existing airflow benifically. Noticed all the 'sweepings,' dust, junk that acumulates on your motor covers, carb filters etc.? The airflow is up thru the motor compartment from underneath the car. Hot air rises, deck lids retain & hold this captured heat,... slow to excape.... the big "Bunny Eared" scoops force the air down away from the induction, past the exh. and out the back / bottom of the car... this is a good thing...and looks killer. IMHO. ( Will post pics of mine soonest on our very own PIM's very excellent Photo Gallery site ) - Hall claims a .2sec. improvement in quartermile times with his,- they replace the rear quarter windows.
Zowie,what an amazing array of beautiful "stuff" from all you guys, -this thread is almost as long as the re-paint colour option / thread, what abuzz.
Thats what makes this Forum/Site great hey. So many ways to skin a cat,..i mean a Pantera. So many options, well done everybody - you are all obviously very strong minded individuals with great ideas / creativity.....i have not seen / experienced this anywhere, any place...ever...
I don't know how to do it to make it look good; probably can't but the air could be tricked to coming back to the car with vorticy generators. For instance:

Round objects create a substantial vorticy. An array of verticle post about at the door jamb would spin the air and help it return to the surface which would make a lower scoop work.

I doubt this would be pretty but this could bring about other ideas.

Gary
Ah Gary?
Have you been running the car with the garage door closed again?
You have to look out for those fumes Dude!
Frankly I'm a little surprized that no one has made a set of clear plexiglass scoops to replace the windows.
The Cobra Daytonna Coupes have them.
I've been trying to weasle the how too out of a local fabricator but he won't talk.
I think that I'll just get some 1/4 plex and turn my heat gun on it. Eventually I'll figure that one out.
I think that being able to see through the scoops would be a plus on a Pantera.
Oh no, I'm at 499 posts, I gotta get a life!
The air flow over the car at some mph will tend to pressurize the scoops.
The Pantera design was done without a wind tunnel. The design was done for what looked right stylewise.
I believe that the L front bumper was done in the Ghia studio wind tunnel.
Performance information was never forthcoming from "the factory".
The information I have is from racers like Gary Hall, when he did race.
I know that Gary used flexable ducting from the bat ears to the carb(s).
I think it was more of a cold air source than a ram air effect.
I don't know if anyone has scientific information that proves or disproves anything.
However, what's wrong with letting more hot air out of the engine compartment in street driving situations?
I know that the 73 L roof/deck lid spoiler does direct air down to the engine area.
I know that there were waranty issues with the early car engine taking in water into the air cleaner and damaging the engine.
If you notice the engine cover screen was revised to include a solid cover over the air cleaner to reduce the possibilaty of this.
All of these items were a consideration by Ford as to how to build a street car that they could waranty with little risk.
Hall was quoted as saying that his race car was .2 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile with the bat ear scoops. It's his quote, not mine. I can't prove it.
I think that the air flow has to be tuned for a certain mph.
Around town sure the hot air will come out what was the rear side windows.
The scoops would be to provide cooler then engine air to the engine compartment or directly to the induction system.
The question is at what speed the scoops work, if they do at all?
There may in fact be a reverse flow of air out of the scoops until a certain mph is reached.
A lot of scoops will do that.
That helps too. It gets hot back there.
> The Pantera design was done without a wind tunnel.
> Performance information was never forthcoming from "the factory".

Also, Ford tested a Pantera in a wind tunnel and the results were published
in the Italian design magazine "Style Auto" (Issue #29). Front, rear and
total lift along with the total drag was presented for 5 speeds from 130 to
260 KPH. This info is also reproduced in the PI new member packet I just got
from Paige Adler. If I did my SI unit conversions correctly, here's the data
from the wind tunnel test published in Style Auto Issue 29:

Vehicle Speed Speed Lift Lift Lift Drag HP required
(KPH) (MPH) Front Rear Total (lb) due to drag
(lb) (lb) (lb)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
260 162 300 112 412 556 238
225 140 229 86 315 426 159
Pantera 190 118 170 62 232 313 100
160 99 115 49 164 218 58
130 81 75 33 108 139 30
-----------------------------------------------------------------
260 162 265 -31 234 509 217
225 140 203 -24 179 390 146
GT40 190 118 150 -18 132 287 92
160 99 97 -11 86 201 54
130 81 60 - 7 53 132 28
-----------------------------------------------------------------
260 162 560 -165 395 758 324
Mustang 225 140 428 -126 302 580 217
Boss 302 190 118 315 -93 222 426 137
160 99 218 -64 154 302 81
130 81 132 -42 90 196 42
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The article was about the Pantera and the photos show the original
pushbutton Pantera prototype sitting visually level.

> The information I have is from racers like Gary Hall, when he did race.
> I know that Gary used flexable ducting from the bat ears to the carb(s).

You do want to isolate the incoming air from the engine bay air for both
temperature and pressure reasons. Smooth tubing with a flexible coupling
will result in a lower pressure drop within the ducting.

> I think it was more of a cold air source than a ram air effect.

Yes, though at high speeds speeds the ram air effect can be significant.
The conversion of dynamic to static pressure is a linear function of
density (which is itself a function of temperature) and a function of the
velocity squared. It's quite eaay to calculate the static pressure rise.
Below 100 MPH, the ram effect is pretty small and the cooler air is the
stronger effect. As the speed goes above 100 MPH, the ram air effect
increases more rapidly and becomes dominant since it is a function of the
velocity squared. Glancing at the tables in my Gas Dynamics book, it looks
like a 2% pressure rise would be possible at around 112 knots which is
something like 129 MPH. On a 400 HP engine, you'd need over 190 MPH to see
a potential 20 HP (5%) increase. You have to balance this against the drag
penalty, of course.

> The only ones that work are the ones that look like bat ears.

You first need to determine whether the flow has separated. If the flow
remains attached, you need to get the scoop out of the boundary layer. Air
near a surface, tends to cling to the surface and slows down. The farther
back on the body, the thicker the boundary layer becomes. It's best to be
at the leading edge of the hood or bumper to stay out of the boundary layer.
Alternatively, you can raise the scoop out of the boundary layer. When we
tufted a 1987 Mustang hatchback, we used a hang glider airspeed indicator on
a pole to measure the boundary layer thickness across the roof. The boundary
layer was attached and approximately one inch thick. If, for example, the
boundary layer is 2" thick, then a scoop less than 2" tall will be less
effective than one 4" tall. There will be no "ram-air" effect for a scoop
within the boundary layer but you may still get a benefit from cooler air.
You can also use yarn tufts to visualize the flowfield. I've been
corresponding with Mad Dog Antenucci on this subject and he says he plans
to test the boundary layer thickness on his Pantera.

If the scoops are in clean air, they don't need to be overly large. If you
look at IRL and F1 air inlets, they are sized for their speed and engine
power. The total area isn't large though they feed 700+ HP (F1 is down to
2.4L normally aspirated) but they are in clean air (inlet just above drivers
head).

> Hall was quoted as saying that his race car was .2 seconds faster in the
> 1/4 mile with the bat ear scoops.

That's in the right ball park.

> I don't know if anyone has scientific information that proves or disproves
> anything.

Somewhere in the database, I have some info on 76 individual wind tunnel
tests that were carried out in the Maryland University wind tunnel on
a 3/8 scale model to arrive at the original GT40 MKI body shape. Nothing
directly related to the bats ears question but some interesting info,
none-the-less. Based upon those tests, a full-size model was built and
tested at Ford's own wind tunnel in Dearborn. Ford used the Lola GT as a
baseline, comparing it to various revisions of the baseline GT40 shape.
Some results are presented below:

Vehicle Yaw Speed Lift Lift Lift Drag
(MPH) Front Rear Total (lb)
(lb) (lb) (lb)

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Lola GT 0 200 528 168 696 503
15 200 768 384 1152
-----------------------------------------------------------------
GT40 with 0 200 540 108 648 519
High Nose 15 200 844 362 1206 614
-----------------------------------------------------------------
GT40 with 0 200 445 199 644 507
Low Nose 15 200 704 422 1126 596
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Front Spoiler 0 200 326 266 592 513
#1
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Front Spoiler - 200 --- --- --- 531
#2
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Front Spoiler 0 200 236 272 508 488
#3 15 200 309 343 652 591
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Front spoiler #1 was 2.67 tall and was added below nose, behind the
air intake. Front spoiler #2 was in the same location but twice as
tall. It reduced lift but was deemed to not have enough ground
clearance. Front spoiler #3 was 3 1/2" tall and faired in. Recessed
headlights were chosen as raised headlights resulted in "marked increases
in lift and drag".

Many of the tests were directed towards trying to find the lowest drag
way to provide air flow for the cooling system, the induction, engine
compartment ventilation, interior ventilation, and brake and shock
absorber cooling air. The designers originally wanted to use twin side
radiators mounted in the engine compartment but tests on the full scale
wind tunnel model indicated 8000 CFM would be required which was deemed
not possible with the side intake duct layout. A conventional front
mounted radiator with intake and outlet beneath the nose was a little
better. The final solution was to take air in at the high pressure
region below the nose, let it flow past an angled radiator and exhaust
out the low pressure region at the top of the nose bodywork. Anti-dive
and squat were designed into the suspension to keep the cars more level
so as to not upset the aerodynamics.

Even with all the wind tunnel work, Ford was learning as they went and
the GT40's airflow management proved insufficient once the cars got out
in the field. The wind tunnel models were not fitted with the internal
ducting so it was only later discovered that 76 horsepower were being
consumed up just trying to ram air through the car at high speed. The
cars were modified in the field to fix one problem like cooling only
to change another, like the aerodynamic balance resulting in yet another
problem. Ken Miles spoke of the problem:

"The aerodynamic problems we've had with the car were essentially ones of
air flow within the car being affected by external details. For example
we were getting very little air flow to the brakes, although they had huge
ducts ostensibly directing vast quantities of air at them. In fact, the
brakes were overheating badly. The engine was getting too hot. The
engine compartment itself was getting too hot. The cooling water was
getting too hot. The engine and gearbox oil was gettting too hot. All
this in spite of a large number of aperatures which should have supplied
them with more than enough air. We discovered that what was happening was
that due to design changes that had been made over a period of time,
probably without reference to the original specifications practically all
of the ductwork was at a "stall " condition" i.e. no air was moving in the
ducts".

Ford's aerospace division Aeronutronics was brought in to instrument a
GT40 with pressure and temerature sensors on various parts of the body
(externally and inside the ducts). From this data, the Shelby team was
able to modify the cars properly. Even when the MKII's appeared, Ford
still had some aerodynamic lessons to learn. Phil Hill wrote "The second
year at LeMans we were in deep trouble when we first arrived, thanks
to a diabolical instability that had been supposedly eliminated in
stateside testing. The MKII's were simply terrifying down the Mulsanne
Straight. We ended up tacking on little eyebrow spoilers as well as an
additional little spoiler across the back to solve the problem. I also
remember early Ferraris with so much front end lift that the steering
became progressively lighter as speed climbed until finally the rebound
stops were a factor... we could have called it up-force."

Dan Jones
Interesting information Dan. When I said that I didn't know if there was any scientific information I meant about the Pantera Specifically.
I did know about the GT40 testing.
I had never seen the test results on the Pantera, nor the Boss 302 and the Mustang.
I vagely remember someone mentioning that thier Boss 302 race car was summoned to Europe for wind tunnel testing.
Now I can't remember who that was. Sam Posey? I seem to think that it was Mark Donahue but I think he was already driving the Camaro for Roger Penski at that time. Dam, who was that?
I notice that the Pantera does have some similarities in testing to the GT40. I am pleasantly surprized.
I'm surprized the the Pantera has so much drag and yet it doesn't require signifigantly more hp to push it through the air then the GT40.
I'll bet that the GT40 has front downforce because of the radiator configuration and exhaust ducting up and over the hood and winshield.
I do remember a drag coefficient being quoted for the Pantera of .29.
Was it from this test?
That's an impressive number even today.
I know the Pantera needs help keeping the nose down. These numbers confirm that.
Too bad we can't see what items like a GTS chin spoiler or a Revson spoiler would do?
I have to presume that the Detomaso GT4-5 bat ear "window scoops" didn't just happen. Someone must have developed them. They are too strange looking to be a design exercise and not work.
They do tend to remind me of the oil cooler scoops on the Lamborghini Countach for some reason though.
Now that is a car that I question if anything really works on. I'm wondering if most of it is just 70's eye-techno-candy?
I heard Jackie Stewart say something like that about the Lamborghini I think. I wonder if that was just because he was in Fords employ as a spokesman?
I also wonder if Ford gave him the Pantera or if he actually bought it?
The Pantera draws interesting company I must admit.
> I'm surprized the the Pantera has so much drag and yet it doesn't require
> signifigantly more hp to push it through the air then the GT40.

The drag is fairly close between the two vehicles. Even at the highest
speed in the table, the Pantera has only about 10% more drag. Given the
smaller frontal area of the GT40, that implies the drag coefficient of
the Pantera is as good or better than the GT40.

> I'll bet that the GT40 has front downforce because of the radiator
> configuration and exhaust ducting up and over the hood and winshield.

The Style Auto table says the GT40 had front end lift of 265 pounds at
162 MPH versus 300 pounds for the Pantera at the same speed. Not sure
which version of the GT40 that was but the GT40's aerodynamics were in
a constant state of evolution. The other table shows results of different
GT40 front spoiler designs that reduced the front lift from 540 to 236
pounds at 200 MPH. I also recall extensions being added to the front
corners below the headlights to generate downforce plus the radiator
exhaust changes.

> I do remember a drag coefficient being quoted for the Pantera of .29.
> Was it from this test? That's an impressive number even today.

I don't think that number was quoted in the Style Auto test.
I have one reference that shows a 1972 Pantera Pre-L as having:

Cd = 0.34
A = 18.23 square feet
Cd * A = 6.20

Assuming they ignored rolling resistance, I can get a decent match to
the HP required numbers in Style Auto for a value of Cd * A = 8.2035.
It may be the case they figured in a rolling resistance in the data.
I think the frontal area is in right ballpark. We can bracket the
frontal area on the high end by width times height and on the low end
by track times height. Using the specs on Pantera Place (from an August
1971 Car and Driver article):

A = 43.4 inches * 58 inches = 17.48 sq ft
A = 43.4 inches * 67 inches = 20.19 sq ft

Averaging the two numbers yields 18.835 which is close to the referenced
18.23 value. That area value would imply the coefficient of drag is 0.45
for the Style Auto data. That's relatively high so I wonder if they figured
in some sort of rolling resistance.

The Pre-L Pamteras had the chrome bumperettes and narrow tires. The later
L models had the rubber safety bumpers and may have been a bit slicker.
GT5-S had the Countach-like wings and flares. Those would have considerably
higher drag as well as larger frontal area.

> I know the Pantera needs help keeping the nose down. These numbers
> confirm that.

Yes.

> Too bad we can't see what items like a GTS chin spoiler or a Revson spoiler
> would do?

We'd need some wind tunnel time or CFD work.

> I have to presume that the Detomaso GT4-5 bat ear "window scoops" didn't
> just happen. Someone must have developed them. They are too strange looking
> to be a design exercise and not work.

Agreed.

> They do tend to remind me of the oil cooler scoops on the Lamborghini
> Countach for some reason though. Now that is a car that I question if
> anything really works on. I'm wondering if most of it is just 70's
> eye-techno-candy?

The clean version of the Countach, the LP5000 had severe stability problems
at speed. When they added all the ducting and wings, it took a big hit on
top speed but supposedly helped stability.

Dan Jones
Dan, there are negative numbers for the GT40 in your chart for the front lift. Am I misreading the chart?
The Mustangs are showing them too.
Are you saying that your information indicates that is from testing chin spoilers?
I don't know how "they" calculated the .29 either for the Pantera.
It is just a number quoted by the press way back before anyone even knew what it meant. I think it was refered to as a very "slippery design".
I think the Studebaker Avanti has a good one too.
Of course Studebaker did make a big deal about the Avanti being wind tunnel designed.
Well we can use my garage as a wind tunnel to test if somebody can bring a fan. Maybe we can use some cheeze doodles on shoe laces for the tuft test?
> Dan, there are negative numbers for the GT40 in your chart for the front lift.
> Am I misreading the chart? The Mustangs are showing them too.

The forum software removes the formatting (Is there a way around that?) but
negative numbers are in the "rear lift" column indicating rear downforce.
Apparently, the Boss 302 rear wing actually works.

> Are you saying that your information indicates that is from testing chin
> spoilers?

The second set of data (the one with the Lola data) had the reduction in
lift due to front spoiler designs.

> I don't know how "they" calculated the .29 either for the Pantera.
> It is just a number quoted by the press way back before anyone even knew
> what it meant. I think it was refered to as a very "slippery design".

It is a fairly slippery design. The product of the drag coefficient
and the frontal area is what matters and compared to the Boss 302 Mustang
it generates 200 lbs less drag at 160 MPH

> I think the Studebaker Avanti has a good one too.

Yes. I've seen a drag coefficient of 0.30 claimed for the Avanti.
I wonder what the Raymond Loewy Studebaker Starliner came in at.
It was a favorite at the Bonneville salt flats due to the streamlined
shape. Dad had a Studillac, a Starliner with a Cadillac V8 (bored an
1/8" of an inch, dual quads, ported heads, Isky E-2 solid lifter cam,
4 speed). Twas a fun ride.

Dan Jones
I just saw a 57 Hawk parked on the street in grey hot rod primer.
I nearly ran into a bus as a result.
I always loved all the gauges in them. Kinda like a Ferrari Daytonna instrument panel.
Funny when I saw this car, my first reaction was, what's under the hood? The mind boggles.
That's something you don't see every day.
Ya' know, there's a movie production guy here with about a hundred cars he rents out to movies. I wonder if it was his?
Wow "Studillac,"- theres a name to conjure with.

Trevial Pursuit question :- Didn't one of the best seller, James Bond books by Ian Fleming;
( a total car-freak of note, who often created cars like Brooklin? Blower Bentleys etc in his books...we all no about the Astons in the later films...but in the books he had much more interesting rides. ) Seem to recall a Studillac in one with Bonds CIA buddy ( Felix Lietner ? ) driving a Stude "hot rod" with Caddy motor...
Great Stuff.

Many, many thks for all the splendid info guys. What a blast. I have printed and filled it all...for reference & prosterity.

Regarding Cd co-effc.- I believe the late 8o's Audi 4 door had a quoted .30.
Quite a break thru at that time for a sedan. Here it was called a 500SL, flared-in door handles, flush glass and what is not commanly knowen ; Audi were allready starting thier 'weight-loss' program; light weight body panels , fetherlite seats etc. It weighed in at 2800lbs dry....a big 4 door.... !
I had a '89 500SEL turbo and with only very low-power, low boost, a 3-speed slush-box, could bustle along very nicely indeed.
Yes, Audi were on thier way......and look what they have done since then....and what about the "Un-Intended Accelration" fiasco feuled by the US media, "60 Minutes" program that almost ruined Audi in N. USA.??? FascinaTING...And how and what Audi did to counter the bad publicity / crash in sales...? Very smart.
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