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Starting Problems

G Guest
I recently purchase a 73 Pantera and over the past 2 month I have been working through a few problems on the car. There is one issue that I have been unable to eliminate and wanted to get suggestions on where to go from here.
The problem is that 80% of the time the car proves very difficult to start initially. Once she is started and warmed up the engine runs strong with no problems. After the initial starting problem, she has always fired up very quickly. I have a new battery, new Holley 600 carb. I recently replaced the voltage regulator as there was some corrosion on the terminals, but it did not seem to make any difference.
When I turn the key the starter turns strongly, however the engine usually does not actually fire until I am releasing the key. It seems that the engine is firing up late. I am beginning to wonder if the ignition switch is worn inside and that might be affecting current somehow.
There might be an issue that is related (I have not had the time to trouble shoot just yet), While the car is idling and I bring both windows down all the way and hold the switches, the current drops and the engine will cut out if I do not release. It only happens during idling and not when I am driving down the road. I can see the current dropping on my gauge. My thoughts on this is that the alternator output is a little low. However my battery has always been kept charged up.

Looking for any suggestions on what to do with this problem.
Thanks,
Merrick Mouton
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bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
I'm not good on electrical problems, but I have a feeling you have indeed a bad ignition switch, or someone has been rooting around in your wiring. The Pantera, like all its contemporaries, starts on 12v, selected by the 'start' position on your ignition key switch. When released, the switch drops to the 'run' position which selects a 9 volt wire to the coil. On early cars like yours & mine, this was the function of the cigarette-pack-sized ceramic ballast resistor on the firewall. On '73-up models, there was a length of resistor wire (light blue, I believe) that did the same. Another problem might be the common practice of hooking electric chokes & fuel pump power wires to the coil as a convenient source of 12v. NOTHING should be attached to the ignition except the ballast resistor wire, as they drop the coil voltage below 9v and it won't run well if at all, especially with more electrical load on the system.
G GhostRidr (Guest)
I'm having a starting issue with my '72 pre-L as well (#2927). Here about 6 months ago I put on a new starter because the old one was getting really hard to start. First it began with turning over very slowly after the car had been run. Then it got to where it was difficult to start even while cold. It definitely had that issue where when I released the key from trying to start, it would finally fire. When I took it off to replace it, it was an old black Autocraft starter (original? surely not). Anyways, the new one started right up, when the car was hot or cold. Been running good.

Well, now it's doing it again. Initially starts up fine, but after running around, and trying to start again, it turns over very slowly, making me have to let it sit, and try a bit later. I'm not sure if it's doing the start-on-release thing again, I need to pay attention more next time.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
OEM starters are very sensitive to heat from the headers, and also need a VERY good ground from engine/transaxle to the frame. I suggest you stop fighting possible starter problems by replacing the rear ground wire AND use a gear-drive starter. All the vendors sell such; note that there are two depths of starter nose available so if you decide to go the speed-shop route for this part to save a buck or two, you have a 50:50 chance of having to return the first unit. Mine was added in 1989 and to date has given absolutely zero trouble in quickly starting a 10-1/2:1 compression smoking-hot engine, besides being half the wt of the OEM units.
G GhostRidr (Guest)
When you speak of a ground wire, is this the one that comes of the ZF to frame? If so, I've got a thickly braide metal one attached now. I can't imagine one any better.

The starter I have on there now is some generic starter I got locally (gear-reduction type), that I know other Pantera owners have ran, with no problems. Not to say mine might be getting hot more than theirs (I have Mind Train headers), I'm not sure. Engine is 10.5:1 compression as well.
bosswrenchbosswrenchMember
Matt, with a good gear-drive starter & a working ground, I can't think of a problem that would make an engine (even a hot big-block) turn over slowly. Please try this: remove the braided ground between the ZF and the frame, and wire-brush the frame area and the ZF case boss until they shines like a mirror! Re-attach the cable & try the starter again. I said, "clean" for this ground connection once, and one young man understood that to mean, 'freshly painted'....long-distance trouble-shooting is not easy!
D dltimmonsMember
I have had this same problem with a couple of old mustangs over the years. Both times, it ended up that the battery in the car, was undersized. The batterys would provide enough amperage to crank the starter, but didn't have any left over for the ignition. Check the amperage rating on your battery. An easy way to check, is to take a battery out of another car, which you know is higher amperage, install it in your P-car, and try it. Using a higher output battery, making sure all cable connections are clean and tight, has always cured this problem for me.

Good Luck,
DT
marlinjackmarlinjackThe Machinist #5723 AMARGOSA MACHINE 'Running on Empty- Middle of Nowhere'
I agree with both Jack and Timmons!! You only have One ground wire, and it must contact shiny clean, both ends and the ground in the front trunk, also. And YES! there IS a much better cable available. That piece of crap braided thing should have been the first thing you replaced. I used a size 0 cable (round copper) 12 inches long. (find it at a welding supply) Then crimp/hammer the coppers ends on. find them at the same place. You can make your own cables this way for dimes instead of dollars!!. Batteries are only good for 3 years; 4 if you are lucky, when have you ever seen a pantera driver that was lucky??(ha-ha) Buy yourself the biggest amperage battery that you can "fit" in the space. Mine delivers 825 Cold Cranking Amps. What does YOURS deliver?? The #1 choice (statistically) is the Die Hard Gold. Then come back and tell us that your car still cranks slow. Regards, Marlin.

[This message has been edited by MARLIN JACK (edited 04-23-2003).]
G GRNGT5 (Guest)
Do you have a voltmeter?I once fixed a friends p car who had the same problem.It was both a bad solinoid and a bad positive cable.With a voltmeter you can check the voltage at both sides of the solinoid and the two positive cables.If it is the positive cable it takes about two hours to change.It passes thru the body and snakes behind the fuse box.I tied some saftey wire to the old one and used it to pull the new cable thru.I also purchased the cables as a kit from Summit.It is a better and more flexible wire than the original plus it came with the terminals,it was about $35.Good luck and let us know what you find out.
G GhostRidr (Guest)
Thanks guys!.

I checked my battery. It is an Interstate AGM-800DT. I believe this is a rebadged Optiama gel-cel battery. It delievers 800 cold cranking amps. It's about 2.5 years old.

This weekend I'll take it to Autozone or somewhere and let them run a test on it, see if everything is charging right.

I'll also look into replacing the as-now braided ground wire with something better.

Any more tips? I'll let you know what I find out otherwise. Thanks again.
G GhostRidr (Guest)
Looks like I have found the problem. I went down to Autozone this evening and had them run a test on the battery. Battery tested good. Then he had me start it up, run it up to 2000 RPMs and hold it there for a bit. Test came back and said Bad Diode, which the guy said meant I had a bad alternator. So, it looks like that is what I will replace.
G GhostRidr (Guest)
One thing I think forgot to mention, something I noticed the other day when driving. The AMP meter was pegged far to the right for a long time. During the 30min drive it very slowly started to creep back towards the middle. I've never had a car that had one of those meters, so it's always been a little mysterious to me.

Also, here is something extra thrown in the mix. I'm currently also experiencing power loss at about 5000 RPMs. When I'm getting on it, I hit about 5 grand, and I get total loss of power for about a second or two as the tach comes back down a little, then power comes back. This powerloss is accompanied by an immediate pop sound. Do you think the two could be related--the hard starting, and the power loss? Maybe it is an alternator problem then? The carb (Holley 700DP) has recently been rebuilt and and fuel filter changed.

I should have mentioned that part sooner, but I don't punch it that often, so I kinda forgot. The power loss and starting problem were discovered in the same day though.
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