Just curious about definitions of stock vs modified, especially for purposes of car show. If the car is visually stock - maybe the wheels are changes so that we can actually put rubber on them and the car has been repainted a different color and the interior trim has been replaced with carbon fiber, but still looks pretty stock, is it stock or modified? Go one step further and take the 351C and blow it by 30 thousanths, is it now modified? Or is it for purposes of a Concours D'Elagance still not too modified to be "modified"?
Original Post
quote:

Originally posted by Raiden:

... If the car is visually stock - maybe the wheels are changes so that we can actually put rubber on them and the car has been repainted a different color and the interior trim has been replaced with carbon fiber, but still looks pretty stock, is it stock or modified?



Modified

quote:

Originally posted by Raiden:

... take the 351C and blow it by 30 thousanths, is it now modified ...



Internal modifications will go unnoticed by the judges. External modification, which would include a loud exhaust or a loping idle, will be noticed.
quote:
Originally posted by Raiden:
Just curious about definitions of stock vs modified, especially for purposes of car show. If the car is visually stock - maybe the wheels are changes so that we can actually put rubber on them and the car has been repainted a different color and the interior trim has been replaced with carbon fiber, but still looks pretty stock, is it stock or modified? Go one step further and take the 351C and blow it by 30 thousanths, is it now modified? Or is it for purposes of a Concours D'Elagance still not too modified to be "modified"?


It depends on the class you are entering. If you are entering a judged contest specifically for Panteras (and I know of no one who judges them) the tough class is judged upon how the car came off of the assembly line. They actually look at the engineering numbers on the parts. You loose points for lack of authenticity, and loose points for less than new condition.

This would also include things like the original decals on the wheels (Campagnollo), Ansa decals on the mufflers, etc.

It would also include the proper date codes on those parts judged upon the build date attached to the car.

In the past there were two exceptions made that I know of. That was for tires and paint. Since the advent of reproduction tires from people like Coker tire, depending on which car it is, tires might or might not be judged.

The Pantera was built using acrylic enamel paint. Most organizations do not require that on a repaint. They would allow for instance a two stage paint with clear over color even though the original paint is a one stage paint.

The EASY Concourse class allows original service parts for the original "assembly line" parts. Again there are two parts to it. Authenticity of parts and condition of those parts. Workmanship in assembling the car is also considered but can be covered with the "authenticity" judging, i.e., you loose points if the workmanship is way too good to be originally assembly line workmanship.

Every organization has it's own rules.

I only know of the Shelbys and Mustangs as they are judged for Concourse in the two catagories. You also have trailered and non-trailered. You are looking at something like 3000 hours of labor to restore them x whatever the hourly rate is. Usually around $75 but there are shops that do Feraris and other exotics that get $300 and hour.

The best way to get an opinion on your car is to pay a certified Gold Concourse Judge to do yours privately. If he's in LA and you are in Miami, you fly him in, pick him up at the airport and pay for his expenses while he is there then pay his fee.

Still wanna' play? It gets very expensive, very fast and it's like owning a race horse, it's a loosing proposition and you just do it for the sport? Big Grin

I've been doing this for 40 years. The term then of a 100 point car was commonplace. Most judge on 300 points (some more) and the highest score I have heard of was 286, in the trailered class. There is no such thing as a 100 point car (300 total) in reality. It only exists in the language that the selling broker uses. Many have been sued for misrepresentation. Some have been threatened with a gun. I haven't seen any of those make the national evening news...yet.
Thanks guys, after what PanteraDoug says, I cant even begin to play in this game. My wife would divorce me and take my Pantera for herself. That being said, my Pantera is entered in the Boca Raton Concours D'Elgance in February and I was thinking of putting the old wheels back on, which might require some work as the wheels are not the cleanest and have a few curb rash marks. The current wheels are two piece Fiske aluminum and really shine. I will take the front airdam off since it only takes about ten minutes to remove.
If it is anything like Pebble Beach, then the judges conference and decide which car looks the nicest and they give that guy the trophy. You probably have got a shot.

Most of them wouldn't have the foggiest idea how to judge a particular marque.

"That and paying $500 for a $20 part because it has the correct date code isn't any fun either" -2112

...or $700 for a $100 distributor because it has the original points and condenser in it? Roll Eyes

oh, forgot, and $200 for a used thermostat housing?
I figure that there cant be too many Pantera judges and even it there was one, would he/she be able to read enuff Italian to figure out date codes and stuff like that. I figure to wax the thing, clean the interior and take off the front dam. My mechanic wants to paint the rocker panels black to make it more correct, but I don't think anyone but maybe 500 current pantera owners might notice that they aren't black. Pretty sure the judges will not be too familiar with Pantera's since there just aren't that many in south florida.
quote:
Originally posted by Raiden:
I figure that there cant be too many Pantera judges and even it there was one, would he/she be able to read enuff Italian to figure out date codes and stuff like that. I figure to wax the thing, clean the interior and take off the front dam. My mechanic wants to paint the rocker panels black to make it more correct, but I don't think anyone but maybe 500 current pantera owners might notice that they aren't black. Pretty sure the judges will not be too familiar with Pantera's since there just aren't that many in south florida.


I wouldn't worry too much about it. I don't think there are any Pantera sanctioning clubs that can judge it anyway?

Clean it up and show it the way it is.
Definitely modified. It's pretty easy to see the items right off the bat as you mention, wheels, floor mats, seats, paint, bits and pieces. I was asked to be a judge in a show for the European GT class and knew nothing about specifics on some of the cars in the class, but typically if one judge doesn't know the mark they try to put judges together where one person knows the brand and model differences, while another person is just good at looking at detail and condition/restoration of the car. Someone else said it....we looked at a car and if there were non-stock items we'd deduct points, it can also depend on what the class is and how many other cars are there. There are judges that can tell you if a screw isn't stock on some cars...it gets that picky on authenticity. It can go to crazy lengths when showing cars at Pebble Beach type shows where someone spent $100k for a restoration. You can also call the organizer of the show and ask them questions about how picky the class or show is. Some shows are just for fun, and they vary all the way up to Pebble Beach. My suggestion is go have fun, it is what it is...you could go nuts trying to win some of the shows.
thanks for the input Tom. I am taking your recommendation to just go have fun with it. I have no misconception that I would win this event, there are just too many good cars here. I just didn't want to get embarrassed. I will be sure to take the floor mats out Smiler
quote:
My mechanic wants to paint the rocker panels black to make it more correct, but I don't think anyone but maybe 500 current pantera owners might notice that they aren't black.

True, no one but a few knowledgeable Pantera folks would notice that the rocker panels are not black, but everyone would notice that the car looks better if they were painted black!
Big Grin

BTW, beautiful car! And as others have said, just have fun with it!

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