Wilwood Brakes - Component #'s??

I have observed the same thing. I guess its also a matter of calling wildwood, they would be sure to be able to tell you. Or an email to them usually works. I have not gotten far enoughj for that yet, and all my rotors and claipers were replaced so this maybe a way off for me but I am also curiuos.

Ron

Julian & Ron,

I have a Wilwood brake system on my Pantera. It's an older system. The original system that a Pantera vendor helped Wilwood develop for the Pantera.

It has 4 piston super lite calipers all around, 12 3/4" slotted rotors, braided steel hoses, the aluminum "mustang master cylinder". There is no proportioning valve in my system, yet the brakes are wonderfully balanced front to back, that's because the caliper pistons in front are larger than those in the rear.

Why not buy a complete kit that is fully engineered, equipped with all the little brackets, hoses, fasteners, back pressure valves you need, that eliminates any guess work? Isn't the ease, the time saved, the assurance of having a proper engineered kit, worth something to you. It's a brake system, the most important system on your car. Do you really want to roll your own?

I ask you to at least consider spending your money with a Pantera vendor. My argument is that doing so is spending your money wisely, because it supports the Pantera community. Part of that money comes back to you in the form of the parts & services offered by the vendors who serve our community.

For instance, this very bulletin board is supported by a Pantera vendor. Without that support, there would be no DTBB.

your friend on the DTBB

George,

Wanting to know the part #'s doesn't commit me to buying individual parts, what it does do, is it allows me to assess a fair market value for the product I'm considering. I'm relatively new to the Pantera scene, but what I see is that often something with a 'De Tomaso' or 'Pantera' tag is considerably marked up, even when that same part is available as an interchange from an alternative vehicle.

I have seen some examples in discussions very recently relating to A frame bushings (I think it was you that outbid me on some of these too ), GT4 light modules and Vitaloni mirrors, where knowing where to look outside the Pantera community wil get you the exact same products at a fraction of the cost.

However, you are absolutely right, it is worth 'something' to me to have a bolt-on engineered brake kit, where everything is done for me, but there is a $$ value on that 'something'. If I can source the parts and make a significant saving as I'm finding is sometimes, (and I admit not always) the case then I will not excessively line someone elses pockets simply beacuse they have some information that allows them to pull together a number of off the shelf parts and sell them on as a specialist 'kit'.

I'm doing this on a budget and I'm finding that I also actually do enjoy searching out some of the information that leads to items or interchange parts alternatives.

I think that PI sponsoring this bulletin board is excellent and I have nothing but praise for that and the people like yourself that participate to disseminate the information, the former is why I elected to join PI and paid my membership. But like they say loyalty has a limit and its usually measurable in $$ amounts.

Thanks for your comments and I hope you'll see my viewpoint.

Julian

quote:

Originally posted by Joules5:
...A frame bushings (I think it was you that outbid me on some of these too)...

MaseratiSource has those bushings on ebay constantly, you can pick them up whenever you need them, they're back on there right now. Didn't know I had bid against you, sorry my friend. It would be nice to know where he's picking them up, he seems to have an endless supply, and you know, even at $20 per bushing, I'll bet he's making at least 100% profit on those buggers.

quote:

Originally posted by Joules5: ... it is worth 'something' to me to have a bolt-on engineered brake kit, where everything is done for me, but there is a $$ value on that 'something'...

So long as you understand, in this specific instance, the thing of value is your life my friend, because the topic is a brake system. Your life was what was paramount in my mind when I wrote previously.

quote:

...loyalty has a limit and its usually measurable in $$ amounts...

Without the support of the Pantera vendors and this bulletin board, our hobby would be far more difficult to persue. I don't think it is a matter of loyalty, but of spending your dollars wisely, where they will benefit YOU AND I the most. Summit Racing adds no value to my life at all.

quote:

...Thanks for your comments and I hope you'll see my viewpoint...

Julian, I'm not sure we disagree here, but even if we do, I respect your right to your opinion as much as I do my own, I would defend your right to disagree with me anytime.

I presented two arguments at once in my first post, one of safety, and one of spending money wisely. Perhaps I should have only presented the one regarding your safety, so as not to muddle the issue.

I never appealed to a sense of "loyalty" so don't be confused in thinking this is my meaning. From my perspective it's not a loyalty issue, it is an issue of spending your money where it will do you the most good, saving money and keeping it in your pocket is one way to do so. But putting money into the Pantera communtiy by shopping with the vendors (when it is appropriate) is equally beneficial to you. Every Pantera owner is faced with these decisions, i.e. when to spend your money where and on what. I agree with you, it would be nice to know what the mark up on the brake system is, my impression is that it is not nearly as outrageous as the mark up on bushings (he, he, he ...). I've been wrong before.

One last though, I've read Roland comment in the past that the expertise & knowledge of a Pantera specialist has value, and each specialist has the right to ask whatever price he feels is appropriate for that expertise. True, true.

We have a right to choose to pay the specialist's price or not. It is obvious certain parts, systems and services require a certain amount of expertise, such as a brake system. But it is equally obvious that certain parts and services, such as suspension bushings, can be sold by any fool.

your friend on the DTBB

George,

I agree with both person views, but I do have my own ... I have been loyal and besides my webers and a couple small things off ebay I have bought from only PI. As they are most helpful and I think prices are fair ... my loyalty is the service and knowledge .. yet I do check the prices.

But with the information available and prices its only fair that we research the parts and the methods of restoring or manitaining these vehicles.

Brakes well that was really the topic. Like your system, there are many with different components and for different uses. What if we buy a system from one of our vendors and its not the proper application. With out mentioning specifics, lets just say it happens.

The bushings I bought mine from PI .. why I'm a little gun shy buying parts which say that they fit multiple applications off ebay.

In closing I still feel even though we are in a site for this special interest vehicle and loyalty to the vendors is a primary concern, there is still a level of knowledge and judgement needed prior to a purchase.

I get it everyday in my business. I have customers who buy there own Plumbing fixtures, water heaters, and plumbing parts then call us to install them. ( how many of us have done that ) do you bring your own eggs and bacon to the diner and ask them to cook it and serve it for you.

Rest assure I'm probably the most loyal guy you will find. If I think the price is high from one of our vendors I will tell them and hopefully they will meet a competitiors price.

I purchased the "Street" upgrade Wilwood system from Pantera Performance a couple of years ago. It was the best investment I have made in the car.
I had seen the basic components in Summit etc. and it appeared that I could do better than the kit price. However, the more I got into it the more questions I had on selection of components. Shoot, there are at least a half dozen "street" pads alone. In the end I went with Dennis' system and am glad I did. I got a master cylinder, anti-bleedback valves, brake lines, brake pads, hats, discs, calipers, brake pads, fluid, bolts, and more importantly, mounting brackets that were correctly chosen and crafted for performance and balance. When I had trouble with my upgraded master cylinder and brake booster, help was a phone call away. When I had leaks in the new master cylinder lines (that I had to craft myself) once again, the answer was a phone call away.
When I added up the difference in price, there was no way I would have come out ahead.
Just the mounting brackets and advice were worth more than the difference.
Dennis' price was the best on the market and the brakes are just great. Very progressive with pedal force and vastly superior in grab to the originals when you need to stomp on them. The best part is, you get a system that has been tested and works together as it should. No guesswork.
I vote for an engineered package.
Mooso.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
...Brakes well that was really the topic...

I taught my family, friends, neighbors, clients and children there are 3 things you never cut corners on regarding an automobile, the battery, the tires, and the brakes. Without the battery you don't start, without tires you don't roll, and without brakes you don't stop. I mention that to point out, I have always felt very strongly about brakes. The fact the topic was about brakes is why I responded so strongly in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
...The bushings I bought mine from PI .. why I'm a little gun shy buying parts which say that they fit multiple applications off ebay...

I HATE polyurethane bushings, and plan to replace the polyurethane installed on my car. I acquired a true Pantera bushing, in a Ford box, before I puchased the "generic" bushings from e-bay. Once I received the generics I was able to compare them to the real deal & verify that they are truly 100% identical. Once I verified the e-bay bushings were identical, I purchased a second set, and apparently competed with Julian for them!...lol...I now own 16 rubber bushings for a Pantera, acquired for $370.

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
...loyalty to the vendors is a primary concern, there is still a level of knowledge and judgement needed prior to a purchase...

If a certain vendor has been good to us, its ok to feel loyalty towards that person, but loyalty to any vendor was not my argument, spending money wisely was my argument. Loyalty is an emotional response, whereas spending wisely is based (hopefully) upon rational thought. Money spent within the Pantera community comes back to us in services & expertise by the vendors, and so it has value to all of us just as much as keeping the money in our pockets. We are in agreement about the judgement part. I think...lol...

It seems I struck a nerve, and yet, I don't believe what I wrote is that controversial. If you own a Pantera, a limited production Italian sports car, it seems to me you would want to keep your network of parts & information healthy. NO? What you & Julian have expressed in reply seems as though our positions really aren't that different, just expressing them in other ways.

your friend on the DTBB

Sorry,

Its not always about keeping money in your pocket. Its about quality of the parts, its about service, when the part fails or is incorrect, do they return it and or warranty it, its about the function of the parts, are they correct for the application. Then and only then can we make a decision on PRICE and how much its going to take to pull from the pocket. I have bought at the higher price. I bought me car at the higher price. Why, it was in good condition ! LOL before I shipped it. ( inside joke.)

We can discuss this all day. But I agree with all of you! This is a personal preference in BUYING... we all have had experiences .... and most of all near sitedness ( did I spell that right) Meaning a kit for the correct application may look like a lot of money upfront, but I agree that it almost always cost more in seperate pieces. The calipers and rotors make look cheaper in SUMMIT or JEGS, but excludes all the brackets and hardware and TECH LINE calls. LOL

quote:

Originally posted by accobra:
Sorry,

Its not always about keeping money in your pocket. Its about quality of the parts, its about service, when the part fails or is incorrect, do they return it and or warranty it, its about the function of the parts, are they correct for the application. Then and only then can we make a decision on PRICE and how much its going to take to pull from the pocket. I have bought at the higher price.

I too have some loyalty to some people who spend time helping the hobby and not just trying to gain a quick sale. I walked into a local hot rod shop here in town 3 times and bought nothing. The guy has a lot of stuff but did not have exactly what I needed. Each time helping me eminsly with everything I was looking for while not being able to get it there. He has a large assortment of AN fittings. When it came tiem to do the hoses on my car I ran in there and bought everything I needed. It was a little more expensive then I could have gotten everywhere else but he certainly deserved the sale.

Gary

George,

quote:

Julian, I'm not sure we disagree here, but even if we do, I respect your right to your opinion as much as I do my own, I would defend your right to disagree with me anytime.

Like you, I think each of our opinions are valid and have merit, 'each to his own'. Its good to have healthy discussion as long as everyone understands that at the end of the day the opinions are just that 'opinions' and you can use that to make a more informed decision. I think that most members here understand that and to me that's what makes Pantera ownership and the DTBB different in a good way.

When generalizing have to also bear in mind that there is the whole gambit of levels of knowledge, ability and willingness in our members, ranging from the 'need to have it done at the shop' through 'I'll do it myself with the bolt on kit and instructions' right the way up to people whom are comfortable in turning their own parts out on the lathe. That range undoubtedly affects what products each of us will buy and from where.

I can see the argument for an engineered kit and if I find like you and Mooso suggest that the cost difference between the two is less than the potential 'hassle' factor, I will stick with the vendors and go the engineered route.

quote:

MaseratiSource has those bushings on ebay constantly, you can pick them up whenever you need them, they're back on there right now. Didn't know I had bid against you, sorry my friend. It would be nice to know where he's picking them up, he seems to have an endless supply, and you know, even at $20 per bushing, I'll bet he's making at least 100% profit on those buggers.

Please don't apologize for bidding against me for the bushings, that is what eBay is all about and it is only to be expected that with a limited amount of Pantera parts on offer and a fairly large ownership community that sometimes we'll end up bidding against each other; simple math and a fact of life.

In this particular instance I received a second chance offer for the bushings, ended up conversing and negotiating with the guy as I wanted a full set of 16. I managed to get a deal at $300 for the 16, so I guess I owe you a beer in Vegas as your bidding against me actually worked out in my favor in the end.

Julian

quote:

Originally posted by Joules5:
...a second chance offer for the bushings...$300 for the 16, so I guess I owe you a beer in Vegas as your bidding against me actually worked out in my favor in the end. Julian

That's a great story. Hell yes you owe me a beer, I'm glad it worked to your advantage. You got your set for $70 less than I!

I also have noticed you have the multiple quotes thing figured out. The next step is figuring out how to include quotes from multiple posts in one reply!

your friend on the DTBB

George,

quote:

I also have noticed you have the multiple quotes thing figured out. The next step is figuring out how to include quotes from multiple posts in one reply!

The easiest way should be to simply copy the text and paste in between quote parentheses, that way you can copy text from any previous post.

quote:

There are 33 people logged on to the DTBB right now!

Bitchen

Great to see so many people looged on and in this community, that in itself says it all about the quality of the DTBB, with teh number of registered users growing by the day.

Julian

Whow!!!You guys must have literary degrees.I need to go back to school.You guys,George&Joules,hit the nail dead-on.Both made outstanding POV & agree with both of you.I just upgraded with aluminum rad. and hoses from vendor(worked great).Also added Eldbrock WP from vendor & was charged $225.00.Summits price was$159.00 but was told by vendor that the pullies on Summits WP would not line-up with pullies on Pantera.Went with vendor WP.I felt somewhat betrayed because I think it's the same WP.I would understand if I had dropped vehicle off for installation,but for him to "line his pocket" on my order left somewhat of a bad taste.I still have a great amount of respect for all the vendors and know they add information, supplies, parts & value to my car.That is worth something.Moral of the story, I'm buying engine parts from Summit or localy,and pantera specialty parts from pantera vendors.That's my story and I'm sticking to it.Thanks, JW

I understand the loyalty factor but I have acess to a machinist/metal guy with all the tools and materials to make the brackets. for aobut $100 bucks I'd guess
I've seen the Superlight calipers go for 90 bucks each new on ebay
$400 shipped
Booster with step bore master $450 from precision
Hoses $130 (which is roughlky twice what I paid for goodrige lines for my Alpina b7. (bought it when I was a kid)
so im missing hardware (bought a TON of metric 8.8 and stainless hardware when a local store went tetts)
Rotors and hats? Cost? a wilwood proportioning valve $40
pads? a $150 maybe for street performance compound?
Billet ebrake (from a local member)
$200-$250 or trade for parts.
So without the rotors and hats Im at
$1450 or so. A long ways from $3250
That money could almost buy a set of 17 campys.
Am I missing something?
Don't get me wrong I agree with supporting vendors. (I really like Steve Wilkenson) but after my experience yeterday buying cam belts for my duc 748 that had just doubled in price at the local dealer because the part had been superceded (renumbered) my loyalty only goes so far before looking at where and how my money is going. The economy is in the sh!tter right now and I don't have the disposable income to throw at toys like I did the last two years. Yet I want to enjoy and justify the money spent on my equity line to put the red 71 in my garage. I've driven it all of twice and since the seller only put one bolt in my swaybar bracket and I knew nothing about needing scales to calibrte the carrera shocks I got off the PWT pantera, The car just sits. Sorry got off subject. having owned a 71 dodge challenger and a ducati I am no stranger to inflated part prices. I guess all I 'm saying is this thread did not answer itself. To me it looked more like an admonition to shop at PIM,Hall. Also please notice that a large portion of my parts came from pantera vendors. Thanks
Ryan

after talking to the guy at wilwood I guess it makes more sense to try to ask for a discount if I buy a bunch of other stuff at the same time than to cobble a kit together myself. I can just get those calipers so cheaply. Thanks for ignoring the question for two weeks by the way while I figured it out on my own.
Ryan

Ryan,

Speaking for myself, I hadn't ignored you, I just disagreed with your desire to roll your own brake system, but since you already knew my opinion, there was nothing left to be written.

I'm pleased the folks at Wilwood were able to help you understand the issues. I've always taught those around me that in regards to automobiles, there are 3 things you don't cut costs on: the battery, the tires and the brakes.

take care, George

They are just so freakin expensive and as f friday I'm so freakin unemployed, at lesat I have a 70.5 camaro to sell. and the superlight kitshav ebeen out long enough to defry the R&D costs. I wish they could make us a better deal. Thanks for the reply
Ryan

I'm sorry to read that Ryan, you have my most sincere hopes that things will turn around soon for you.

Call Jerry at PI Motorsports, I know he offers a brake kit that utilizes oem rotors, but substitutes 4 piston calipers. Its his kit for guys who want to keep the 15" wheels but still improve the brakes.

The Wilwood stuff is expensive, agreed. They are racing parts, and priced accordingly.

Is there any reason you can't just drive with the oem brakes until the employment situation improves?

your friend on the DTIC

Ryan ... I used Portafields pads on my 79 I choose for it to be a stock car .. and I had the car at Pocono Speedway for 5 20 minute sessions at top speed of about 125 ... I had no problem with the stock brakes with new Dot 3/4 fluid ... the WILWOODS I also would like a set but not sure where the breaking point is when the stock brakes are not enough ???

Ron

Ron, as far as when you think you need the Wilwoods depends on the usage of the car and how lucky you feel.There are many variables. The Panteras are approaching 40 yrs old.I think for tooling around the streets replacing the flex lines with steel braided, rebuilt calipers,master cylinder,fresh high grade brake fluid and new pads will work fine.Even rebuilding the hydraulic components with new seals has to be suspect. The poor brake system has to be the most neglected sytem on any car and one that is taken for granted.Most people don't flush out their system annually to rid the brake fluid of moisture. Over time the sleeves become pitted and rusted from moisture accumulation over the years.Especially if the car sits for long lengths of time in storage. So even with new seals you have to wonder how well those new seals will withstand pressure within pitted sleeves.

It also depends on the track you take your car on,how often and how aggressive of a driver you are.Take a track like Pocono where you have long straights and infield turns. The long straights will give your rotors and pads a chance to cool before the infields which in result will keep your brake fluid cooler.Are you coasting off the straights into the next corner or are you waiting to the last possible second and stomping on your brakes and diving in? Are you aggressively on the gas and then on the brake? Take it on tighter tracks like Watkins Glenn or Lime Rock your stock brakes would be toast within two laps.

I'm presently finishing up a ground up restoration on my car.I have alot of time and money in the car but most importantly I value my life.It was a no brainer. My car only had 17,000 orig miles on it. As I inspected each component of the original brake system,the small heavy iron unvented rotors, 2 piston calipers,dry rotting of the flex lines and saw the rust and pitting in the cylinders I declared it as junk for my intended purpose. I wanted peace of mind.Lets see, do I spend $2500 on nice bigger, thicker vented rotors, 4 piston light weight calipers,new pads,steel braided flex lines/stainless steel hard lines and new master cylinder or risk wrecking my car, me or taking out some innocent person.To each his own.

Dan

They are just so freakin expensive . I think was the quote ...

I dont think anything has to do with LUCK... the USE yes .. the driver YES ? Pocono ... lets just say we are on the track ... no coasting .. right down to the number sign and hammer the brakes ... to keep up with Z06's and and the rest of the 400hp - 500hp cars STOCK brakes are border line for 2 events per year.

The use will depend on what brakes will be needed. but I think its more like 5k complete for WILWOODS , 3500 for the PI system and 9k for the BREMBOS. But buying anything off the shelf doesnt make a bolt on system perform. I seen many poorly installed ameteur wrenchers screw up putting rims on the car. Do they torque the lug nuts to 90 ftlbs ?

Myself and a fellow Pantera owner have toyed with the idea of drilling and slotting stock rotors. We also looking into anitlock brakes system. He is a Engineer ,Metalurgist and Defence Contractor. So he knows his stuff.

The issue is not to spend the money .. the issue is can the stock system be upgraded for the average owner who enjoys the car on the street and 2 track events a year and wants MAX out of the stock system.

Another fellow owner and he is not a soft foot .. owns a group of detomaso cars and Engineer added 2 calipers to the rear of the stock system .. it bolts on ?? added adjustable proportioning valve. The car has 500hp + its a show car and it makes the track a couple times a year.

My car was at Limerock .. brakes got hot but not toast. Same pads 4 track events theya re now ready to be changed since they only allow 50% min.

I have to say 6476 is getting Brembo's hand down ... if I'm going to put a 600hp motor in an go racing .. you can bet when I hit that pedal the car is stopping.

Ron

quote:

Do they torque the lug nuts to 90 ftlbs ?

What s/ they be torqued to?

Lug nuts should be torqued to 90ftlbs to race on a track and tightened in a alternating pattern in torque intervals.

quote:

Lug nuts should be torqued to 90ftlbs to race on a track

Is that true if you're running the stock Campy magnesium wheels? I think the lubnuts on original Campys (not clones) are only supposed to be torqued 50-60 ft.lbs.

Regarding improvements to a stock brake system...
Vented rotors for a 66 Mustang are a direct bolt on replacement for the front rotors according to posts to the DT Mail List. This gives you all kinds of options for slotted, cross-drilled, cryo-treated, etc. performance rotors. And, they're inexpensive! The only thing you need to do is press out your metric lugnuts to install on the Mustang rotor, or order a new set of lugnuts from one of the vendors.

For the rear, Larry Stock at Pantera Parts Connection (Reno) sells custom Brembo slotted and/or cross-drilled vented rotors which are a direct replacment for the stock rear rotors. And, they work with your existing stock calipers.

Then, as your budget permits, you could upgrade calipers, booster, flex lines, etc along the way.

Cheers!
Garth