180 degree headers

Hi there, David. I didn't put 180s on my car, but several folks here in Phoenix have. My observations: They sound terrific - much smoother than stock. One car used Flowmasters for mufflers, and they are quiet enough for a subdivision. Another runs open pipes, and they shake the earth - it's up to you. They are apparently not as difficult to install/remove as one would think. You have three choices for tailpipe exit: Out where the license plate is, or where the grille for the A/C condensor is (which means you have to move the A/C). Or cut holes in the inner fenders and route to the stock location. Some folks run shields to protect the paint on the decklid, some don't.

I'll let others comment on performance issues. -Steve

I don't think there are any performance issues.
They are a little load at idle in a confined space but the stock mufflers aren't too quite either.

They certainly aren't restrictive which is more then you can say about the stock mufflers.

The tubes could be too large for a stock engine at 2" but if you can run to 7000 or more they are a treat and a song to behold.

Mine exit at the stock location so nothing needed to be relocated for them.

The largest issue is that if you want trunk space the modified trunk is about half of what it was.

Hall Pantera used to sell them. I just modified my original one.

Make sure that you insulate the bottom of the trunk with that space age fabric and don't carry any living thing in there.

Well maybe your mother-in-law?

Thanks Steve and PanteraDoug for your helpful comments. The engine on this '72 narrow body was rebuilt about 1 1/2 yrs ago by Hall Pantera. Allegedly the car has 475 hp. The 180 headers have small torpedo shaped cylinders bolted on at the end of the headers slightly larger than the header pipes(maybe flowmaster?)and they exit where the A/C condensor grille is. I have some photos of the engine bay including the headers....if only I knew how to upload them here. Thanks you guys. David

Yes, lets see some pic's guys // 180’s and the different types of exits, what is happening to the stock cut-outs in the body ?

Mark,
those 180's look fantastic! simple clean install, where did you get them and or who makes them? I've been talking with MME about building a stroker and I have to decide on what exhaust and how to address the factory cut outs and not re invent the wheel with mabye filling the holes with steel, body work and repaint, or....some kind of block out plate in black, or....what do most people do with the original cut outs?
Thanks,
Daniel

I find the sound of the 180's is rather lackluster.

If you have fallen in love with the sound of a standard Pantera, be aware the 180's have a different note.

I do not know how they compare from inside the cockpit, but definately not the same from outside.

Larry

Well they sound awesome and they sing at 6500+ rpm hehehe...
good luck.

The american V8 uses a "cross plane" crankshaft and each bank of cylinders has an uneven firing order, it creates the V8 burble we all love.

F1 cars, Ferraris, etc have a "flat plane" crankshaft, and each bank of cylinders have an even firing order, it creates that smooth "scream" or "wine" you hear from these motors.

Bundle of snakes headers are designed to combine the proper cylinders to give each half of the exhaust system an even firing order. Properly done this is good for 30+ bhp at high rpm. It also gives the exhaust more of a wine like a Ferrari. Some bundle of snakes are more successful at this than others, I don't know why this is. Dennis' exhaust does this about as well as I have heard. When he gets on the gas, his exhaust has that F1 wine, it sounds BITCHEN.

I keep a picture of Dennis' motor next to my bed, the sexiest motor I know of.

Here's mine!!! I wouldn't trade them for anything!!!

Ron

Sweeet... Gotta luv em.

Dennis

Beautiful engine bay Mark. Nice job.
DaveFerrato #5972

testing...hopefully this will have photo of 180 headers

test

One guy even put zoomie headers on his P-car. I imagine it was real loud!!

I dont feel that 180s are worth the effort unless you plan to race. The extra hp only appears at or near the tuning rpm of the header when compared to a good header and muffler. You will loose the use of your trunk and the heat will be intense. Some cars have even burnt the paint on the deck lid. They do look cool and sound unique. If the sound and look is worth it, then go for it. Otherwise, if you really use your car, you might just stick with normal exhaust. Before my turbos, I had Big bore exhaust and loved the big-block rumble sound. And I was told you could hear me over a mile away.

I love the way my 180's look and sound. The key with the heat issue is to have them coated. I took mine to HPC right after they were made and had them coated inside & out. You can put your hands on them within a minute of shutting down the engine. I have a heat shield on my deck lid, but do not know that it is necessary (although I have always heard that it is). Yet when you look at my headers you will notice that they pass within a half of an inch of my painted engine bay with no problems. And yes I have had this car on several long distance runs, at high speeds etc., in Arizona, with no issues. The one problem with these headers is taking them off or putting them back on. It is a royal pain! It took 3 of us, three hours to get them installed last time, and you would think that it would be easier because there are no gaskets! All of the flanges were cut with the wetjet process and port matched with the heads and use no gaskets. And if built right they will make horsepower.

quote:

Originally posted by Rapid:
I love the way my 180's look and sound. The key with the heat issue is to have them coated. I took mine to HPC right after they were made and had them coated inside & out. You can put your hands on them within a minute of shutting down the engine. I have a heat shield on my deck lid, but do not know that it is necessary (although I have always heard that it is). Yet when you look at my headers you will notice that they pass within a half of an inch of my painted engine bay with no problems. And yes I have had this car on several long distance runs, at high speeds etc., in Arizona, with no issues. The one problem with these headers is taking them off or putting them back on. It is a royal pain! It took 3 of us, three hours to get them installed last time, and you would think that it would be easier because there are no gaskets! All of the flanges were cut with the wetjet process and port matched with the heads and use no gaskets. And if built right they will make horsepower.

I have a second or thirdgeneration Hall set.
They aren't as pretty as some of the others BUT they are much easier to install and remove at a moments notice.

On this car that is important to me.

As far a HP goes I can't think of anyone who has done a dyno test to prove anything. I would think that much like running Webers there is little point to running them on a stock engine.

The gain is defiately going to be an upper rpm one and probably, like most headers, loose HP down low.

quote:

I have a second or thirdgeneration Hall set.
They aren't as pretty as some of the others BUT they are much easier to install and remove at a moments notice.

On this car that is important to me.

As far a HP goes I can't think of anyone who has done a dyno test to prove anything. I would think that much like running Webers there is little point to running them on a stock engine.

The gain is defiately going to be an upper rpm one and probably, like most headers, loose HP down

I just bought a set of Halls. I'm curious to see if they are the same as yours. Can you post a picture of your engine/headers?
Will

I think that Bob from Precision Proformance is the builder and supplier to Hall but I haven't asked him.

Everyone here thinks I built them. That's OK with me.

Here's another shot.

They look great, Doug.
If your header flange bolts were raised by 1/2 an inch, would the headers still fit? Would they hit the gas tank shield or something on the passenger side?
I need to get headers to fit my CHI 3V's that are raised .4 inch.
Will

Also, did they fit well from new? Or did you have to massage them?
Will

These headers were purchased as being for A3 heads. So as far as having to adjust for higher exhaust flanges, no. That was already built into them.

There was one problem with them and that wasn't caused by Halls builder.
The problem was that Ford Motorsport (now Ford Racing) changed the lower bolt pattern on the heads from what I had.
I guess mine are early A3 heads, I don't know.

The simplest thing to do was to redrill the flanges on the headers and use flat washers to cover the inequity so to speak. That worked out fine. I also got $100 credit from Hall to do this, so I was ok with it.

Also, but hardly work mentioning, I think tube #6 had to be flattened to clear the gas tank shield.

Other then that, they fit very well.
There are no horror stories to tell about them at all. They fit pretty well and are sturdy.

They supplied asbestos gaskets for them but I found it easier to make new ones out of 16 once copper sheeting. It is soft enough that it works well as a gasket material.

I'd like to get them jet coated eventually. That's just another $400. I may also replace the bullet pack mufflers with polished stainless ones also so they function as exhaust tips. I can get a 45 degree radiused tip on them which will be about right to center them in the stock cut outs.

All in all I like them with my setup. A3 heads, Webers, solid lifter cam.
On the open road they are no louder then stock and they really sing at rpm.

I think you will like them.

Here is a fresh set fabricated by Dawson Racing Headers. I still need to build the motor so I can not comment on the sound yet but the craftsmanship is excellant!

Better use double platinum plugs so you don't ever have to do them more then once.
They may be built well but engine access certainly wasn't a consideration on that set.
Yikes. I hope I'm wrong for your sake.

They are very, very pretty though.

Mockup before going back in car. The stock muffler openings will be filled in and painted. The AC grille will have two small custom cuts to match the upswept tips of the PowerPaK Mufflers.

Are those headers from the Byers bros. O did you have them made. Nice.They look sweet, what size primary.
Dennis

PanteraDoug,
You access the plugs from underneath. Very easy and lots of room! Not that you could tell that from my picture.

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Reply

You guys have offered lots of input on my original question of the advantages and disadvantages of 180 degree headers, thank you. Now I have a more specific question; a professional mechanic told me that 180 degree headers causes a marked decrease in low end torque. Yes you gain some horsepower at the top end but at the terrible expense of losing lots of horsepower and torque at low speeds. Furthermore, since most 180 headers exit where the A/C condensor is, usually the A/C condensor is relocated in front of the radiator, in effect blocking much air flow from the radiator resulting in significant overheating problems, especially for people driving their Panteras in hot areas like the southwest states. Anyone have any comments to verify or refute these claims? Thanks, David

I think he's confusing tri-y vs 4-1.
I don't yet see how un-mismatching the pulses will drop lowend power.

You gain low-end torque just like you would if you had a single exhaust system.

It probably would only really be a gain until the single system started to become restrictive I'd guess around 3500rpm but that's a guess.

I need charts and graphs to overlay to interpret the data you know.

The difference here, with 180s, is that you also gain upper rpm hp. At what rpm depends on how the size of the pipe and the length of the tubes are tuned to the engine.

It is possible to over scavenge with 180's.
Defining over-scavenging as sucking the unburned fuel out of the combustion chamber.

A few people have asked where mine were built, photo on page 6. According to "my man", these were built by a custom builder of 180 degree headers for racing boats. I do not have the name right now.

I have to say that they are all beautiful sets.

It makes me feel good to know that I am amongst people that understand.

Do you guys have to have the nurse administer medication at night so you won't be a problem over night or is it just me?

I try to get the head nurse as much as possible.