Hi guy's, which brand camshaft will you advice for a stock cleveland ?
maybe a little upgrade .
Simon
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https://pantera.infopop.cc/top...m-street-cam-profile
GeorgeP described it very well, how a camshaft for a Stock Cleveland should be.
Thanks GeorgS , I will learn a lot from the added link.
Simon
Sadly there are no more cams readily avvailable that are close to the recommendation since Crane Cams doesn't exist anymore.
If you don't want to deal with a custom camshaft, this Howards Cam is the closest I could find.
Well I would comment that this cam is basically a copy of the stock cam.
https://www.compcams.com/high-...-351c-351m-400m.html
The question is, is that what you want or do you want to "improve" on the stock compromises?
Mr.Pence tried to answer that question and judging by the users reviews, is an overwhelming success?
If you are asking what is "in stock/on the shelf", that is a different question. The answer is not a lot. Virtually everything that I look at now needs to be ordered and that generally means that they are not stocked/ on the shelf by the manufactures and need to be made for you?
That by experience means some sort of waiting time.
Rene ordered a custom cam and got it pretty fast considering it had to be made for him.
It has a little more aggressive timing then George P's cam but they are very similar.
Both are hydraulic roller lifter designs so there is additional expense involved as a result.
The other thing to consider is that you are asking others to judge for you what a good solution is. As good as those intentions are, you may not agree after you install the thing, run it and judge it to be a lousy choice.
And while there are quite a few cam grinders in the U.S, there are only two (2.0) shops that make cam blanks from which all cams are ground. And as mentioned, the 351-C cam is unique in several ways and is a small market within a specialty market, which is further divided into flat tappet and roller. So there are usually not a lot of Cleveland cams of any design available off the shelf.
Having been disappointed by Bullet cam's behavior when the tappet I had purchased from them broke, I had my new camshaft rectified by:
https://www.schneidercams.com/
They rectifie the shafts according to the specifications that we provide them
The problems described were with a Roller Cam, for a stock 351C I wouldn't go for a Roller. I don't recall anybody recently having problems with a normal flat tappet cam.
The cam Doug posted is the most basic single-pattern comp cams cam they list for a cleveland. Before I would do that, I would go for a stock replacement (I think there are some available from Melling).
But because of his post I remembered the Crane Cam that comes close to GeorgeP suggestions. Crane was bought by Comp Cams and you can order it from there as a special order. The guy that did these "old Crane Stuff" at Comp was Robert Freund.
The grind number is H-278-2 (REPLACES HMV-278-2A), see attachment.
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@GeorgS posted:The problems described were with a Roller Cam, for a stock 351C I wouldn't go for a Roller. I don't recall anybody recently having problems with a normal flat tappet cam.
The cam Doug posted is the most basic single-pattern comp cams cam they list for a cleveland. Before I would do that, I would go for a stock replacement (I think there are some available from Melling).
But because of his post I remembered the Crane Cam that comes close to GeorgeP suggestions. Crane was bought by Comp Cams and you can order it from there as a special order. The guy that did these "old Crane Stuff" at Comp was Robert Freund.
The grind number is H-278-2 (REPLACES HMV-278-2A), see attachment.
I agree with this. Use a stock CJ cam in a stock CJ. It isn't a bad combination.
I actually went looking on Compcams simply because they have what they describe as "modern" versions of the original classic high performance camshafts.
I see them for a 289hp Ford but not for the CJ Cleveland.
@GeorgS posted:But because of his post I remembered the Crane Cam that comes close to GeorgeP suggestions. Crane was bought by Comp Cams and you can order it from there as a special order. The guy that did these "old Crane Stuff" at Comp was Robert Freund.
The grind number is H-278-2 (REPLACES HMV-278-2A), see attachment.
FWIW, back in 2009, I pulled the unknown camshaft out of my engine when I was in the process of installing Edelbrock aluminum heads I purchase from Ohio George Montgomery at his speed shop here in Dayton, Ohio. The cam I pulled out was the same Crane H-278-2. Figuring I may need a different cam given the increase in compression, I went back to George for his advice; he was aware of my 1972 Pantera application. Not sure what to recommend, George immediately got on the phone and called his buddy, Mr. Crane, who recommended I stick the Crane cam back in the engine since the cam was design for sporty street use especially with the higher compression I was going to get with the new heads. The engine is healthy and still going strong. Anyway, that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it…
Note that George ran Crane Cams in his gasser. 
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@rlee63a4 posted:FWIW, back in 2009, I pulled the unknown camshaft out of my engine when I was in the process of installing Edelbrock aluminum heads I purchase from Ohio George Montgomery at his speed shop here in Dayton, Ohio. The cam I pulled out was the same Crane H-278-2. Figuring I may need a different cam given the increase in compression, I went back to George for his advice; he was aware of my 1972 Pantera application. Not sure what to recommend, George immediately got on the phone and called his buddy, Mr. Crane, who recommended I stick the Crane cam back in the engine since the cam was design for sporty street use especially with the higher compression I was going to get with the new heads. The engine is healthy and still going strong. Anyway, that’s my story, and I’m sticking to it…
Note that George ran Crane Cams in his gasser.
The only issue is the situation that Bosswrench has described. The READILY available profiles for a Cleveland are small. In fact when you start contacting cam companies many will tell you that the cam blanks for a Cleveland are not available, so they can't grind one for you.
I like staying as simple as possible so I like the flat lifter solution.
That Crane cam solves the criteria the OP asked for but Crane Cams no longer exists. Even many of the CompCams profiles are not in stock as well.
Honestly, I wouldn't expect a Melling "stock cj profile" to be available either, but you won't know for sure until you try to get one? Someone, somewhere may have a NOS? The trick is finding out where it is?
The Melling 24204 seems to be available at rockauto. Looks close to stock, maybe a hair more.
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Unless the 351C in your De Tomaso is equipped with a US Ford manufactured Q code engine, the Q code camshaft is an upgrade.
The Q code cam is worth 30 horsepower to a De Tomaso equipped with an Australian 351C (T code). Worth 40 horsepower to a 1971 Pantera equipped with a US Ford manufactured M code engine.
A 351C assembled using the Q code camshaft (aka the Cobra Jet camshaft) with the compression ratio set at 10:1 with quench combustion chamber cylinder heads to complement the camshaft, metering fuel and air with an optimally tuned (non-emission) Holley 650 cfm carburetor mounted on a standard height dual plane intake manifold would produce 320 horsepower at 5300 rpm if equipped with cylinder heads from an Australian Y code or P code 302C (i.e. 2V quench combustion chamber heads). If the cylinder heads from an M code engine (i.e. 4V quench combustion chamber heads) were used instead that “351 Cobra Jet” would produce 350 horsepower at 5800 rpm.
If a roller cam upgrade is preferred that's a whole other topic. I like roller cam upgrades ... but before we go "sticking a cam in it" I would advise upping the compression ratio first, that's the best way to improve pep and throttle response.
-G
Thanks Guy's I have learned a lot .
the same question, which brand /type hydraulic lifters ( non roller) is the best choice ?
Simon
One question I have is whether the cam for a straight “roller” valve train is (can be) the same as the cam for a “hydraulic roller”.
Assume with a straight roller cam, you have to set the valve lash occasionally?
Rocky
@rocky posted:One question I have is whether the cam for a straight “roller” valve train is (can be) the same as the cam for a “hydraulic roller”.
Assume with a straight roller cam, you have to set the valve lash occasionally?
Rocky
What is a straight roller cam? Do you mean a solid lifter roller cam?
It is recommended that the valve lash be "checked" and adjusted if necessary on any solid lifter cam periodically v. a hydraulic lifter that is self adjusting.
I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that you could get lifters that have a roller on the bottom, but a solid body (without the hydraulic function).
@simon posted:the same question, which brand /type hydraulic lifters ( non roller) is the best choice ?
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Sealed Power HT-900 hydraulic flat tappets, however, hydraulic flat tappets with a DLC coating are already available for Chevys. If or when they become available for Fords those shall be the flat tappets to use. A DLC coating on the face of flat tappets can reduce frictional forces by up to 66%. DLC coated flat tappets retain the light weight and mechanical reliability advantages of a flat tappet while drastically reducing the disadvantages of friction and wear.
Lets discuss the factory valve train
Replicas of the Cobra Jet camshaft (D2ZZ-6250-B) are available from Speed Pro (CS-650), Melling (SYB-29) or Howard’s Cams (237211-15). There is one difference between the factory camshaft and the aftermarket versions; whereas the factory camshaft had 117° LSA, the aftermarket versions have 115° LSA. The torque curve will be a little more lively.
Cobra Jet Camshaft Specifications: 270°/290° duration at 0.006 – 205°/220° duration at 0.050 – 0.481/0.490 gross lift – 115° LSA – 50° overlap – 119° ICL.
The factory Cobra Jet camshaft timing was retarded 4° for emissions. The convention is to advance the cam at least 4° to reverse the emission tuning. To advance the timing of the camshaft it will be necessary to use a double roller timing set with a 9 keyway crank sprocket. Ford Racing M-6268-A351 and Cloyes 9-3621X9 timing sets are two possible choices.
The factory Cobra Jet camshaft requires M code/Q code spec valve train; factory 4V heads were assembled with this valve train but Australian heads (i.e. 2V heads) were not.
Factory M code & Q code valve spring specs:
> 1.50 inch OD
> 90 lbs at 1.82 inch installed height
> 390 lbs per inch spring rate
> 0.500 inch max lift
The valve springs of a performance engine are equipped with tight fitting flat-wound dampers inside the main springs to prevent oscillation, bounce, and surge. Over time the flat wound dampers wear and their fit inside the main springs loosens. As the fit loosens the dampers no longer exercise the same amount of control over oscillation, bounce, and surge; thus springs equipped with flat wound dampers wear-out. When rebuilding 40 to 50 year old cylinder heads do not re-use the old springs, replace them with new springs appropriate for the application.
M code/Q code spec valve train includes Sealed Power HT-900 hydraulic flat tappets, Sealed Power MR-1811 factory rocker arm fulcrums, Sealed Power VS-717 valve springs, and Manley 23645-16 chromoly 7° valve spring retainers.
Sealed Power VS-717 valve spring specs:
> 1.51 inch OD
> 87 lbs at 1.82 inch installed height
> 424 lbs per inch spring rate
> ≈0.500 inch max lift
Factory cams are ground with “gentle” low-rate ramps, allowing them to use lighter closed spring force. This is done to reduce cam lobe, tappet, valve, and valve seat wear. The lighter closed spring force requires a higher spring rate in order to have adequate force over the nose. Aftermarket cams and factory springs are not a good combination because the cams won’t have the low-rate ramps and need more closed spring force to prevent valve bounce.
Valve springs for aftermarket hydraulic flat tappet cams should have about 122 lbs ± 8 lbs force when closed and 315 lbs ± 15 lbs force over the nose. The actual spring rate needed will be in the range of 330 to 360 lbs/inch.
Stiffer ⁵⁄₁₆ inch OD pushrods made from seamless chromoly tubing, with wall thickness of at least 0.080 inch are preferred over factory pushrods. The 581S series pushrods by Smith Bros. Pushrods are one possible choice.
-G